[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *
thandymazaq: so you prefer todays times, of violence and pain for Muslims in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Pakistan to those of our fathers? It was our grandfather's age that carved out a Muslim nation, not through violence, but through adopting the peaceful ways you seem to reject. Sure in a broader perspective, the Ottoman empire etc got broken up, but you realise that that age wasnt as connected as this one. this global village where one death in Palestine echoes around the Muslim world is only a phenomenon of the nineties. There was no shared perception.
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tribulation and trials under islam is better than peace of nationalism . we dont want to live under kufr systems we dont want to live a life of "individual" islam where praying 5 times and tahajjud and fasting and zakat are enough. it is not even the begining of islam. islam is the total implementation of Allah's wills and commands. it involves hudood. it involves the sharia commerce laws such as open trade (custom taxes are haraam), no riba, no hoarding of foodstuff. it involves the state making sure the people have enough to eat no matter what their background is. it involves the state to make sure that immoralirt is not open in streets (they dont /cant look at ppls houses and spy on them but they make sure its not open) it involves taking care of other muslims that are outside the borders of the state and much more. having a place where ppl can pray 5 times is not islamic state. i can pray and observe all pillars of islam in america, so does it make is an islamic state? would sahabas like to live here? i dont think so, so guaranteeing freedom for prayers is not enough. even kuffar have no problem with it, its the total implementation of islam that our grandfathers did not care about . wallah o alam.
Re: the conservative muslim's view of the near future
tribulation and trials under islam is better than peace of nationalism . we dont want to live under kufr systems we dont want to live a life of "individual" islam where praying 5 times and tahajjud and fasting and zakat are enough. it is not even the begining of islam. islam is the total implementation of Allah's wills and commands. it involves hudood. it involves the sharia commerce laws such as open trade (custom taxes are haraam), no riba, no hoarding of foodstuff. it involves the state making sure the people have enough to eat no matter what their background is. it involves the state to make sure that immoralirt is not open in streets (they dont /cant look at ppls houses and spy on them but they make sure its not open) it involves taking care of other muslims that are outside the borders of the state and much more. having a place where ppl can pray 5 times is not islamic state. i can pray and observe all pillars of islam in america, so does it make is an islamic state? would sahabas like to live here? i dont think so, so guaranteeing freedom for prayers is not enough. even kuffar have no problem with it, its the total implementation of islam that our grandfathers did not care about . wallah o alam.
I think you're talking about a cross between communism and fascism.
I hope you realize that the society the Sahabas led was not this restrictive.
This level of conservatism you talk of was seen in Afghanistan under the Taleban and approaching it is the regime of Saudia Arabia to some extent. Both failed states. SA is only thriving because of the Hajjis and oil-buyers that support its economy. Take away the oil, and lets say Mecca and Madinah were split off from the rest of Saudi, it would be flushed down a toilet faster than Afghanistan was.
Conservatism to that level is not practical and history has shown it hasn't worked. The Islamic empire was much less conservative than what you describe, and it did work for some time.
And since when did taxes become haraam???
And I would suggest you try to be a bit grateful. The fact that you have religious freedom is a BIG thing, and you are not even happy with that. Religious freedom was taken away in places like Bosnia, and communist Russia, etc. All the Prophet did was to struggle so that his people were even allowed to EXIST. How can you not be happy with that? You people need to live your lives and let others live their's. That's how the Prophet did it, and that's how his Sahabahs did it. They never suggested this nonsense you suggest.
Re: the conservative muslim's view of the near future
Modifications to my previous comments: SOME suggestions are ok - like making sure everyone is fed. That's fine. But you can do that without overthrowing the present government structure and without banning any sign of westernism in the country, including all the cutesamina2000's. Maybe you guys need to figure out how you can WORK WITH OTHER PEOPLE, including people like cute samina, so that you can achieve some basic humanitarian goals you speak of.
But until you're willing to accept those people as human beings and not disprespect those western-culured folks as you do on a friggin DAILY rohna dohna basis, you will not achieve any good for your society. You will just keep destroying it with non-stop complaining.
Re: the conservative muslim's view of the near future
yeah.. same feeling here. but part of it could be because we're too attached to (cultural) norms being lost that werent necessary to be conformed to in order to conform to Islam. you probably are very different from your grandfather, and its possible that even while conforming to Islam your behaviour might seem foreign enough for your grandparent as to be troubling.
And how many of your cultural traditional norms are Islamic? I'm sick of this anti-westernism. Westernism has much to share with Islam, and Islam happens to be classified as a Western religion with very eastern followers. Pakistani traditional culure is filled with non-Islamic habits and norms. So, kindly, stop criticizing those that are not necessarily like you.