The concept of being Stoned to Death

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

This is surely new to me. That ahadees should be words of Allahjee.
Now you mean to say, Quran wasnt complite and it had limitations so ahadees is next after Quran, as crystal clear guidelines?

You went way to far to defend ahadees by saying its the saying of Allahjee.
Surely, Allahjee HAD AND HAVE all powers to send HIS complite set of new law-bearing law at the time of Rasuulallah pbhu. You push the limit of legalizing all ahadees, weak as strong sources.

How many times does hadice not contract or colide against each other? There are countless of scenarious. But we can not claim the same about Quran.

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

Semi, there are only few things which need further interpretations not on a wide scale. After 1400 years things are bound to get skewed, many people come and go with interpretations. Laws are always subject to many conditions and circumstances. These are all peripherals and should not be lumped into doctrinal discussions.

Throughout Islamic history there has been no change in the doctrine whereas Christianity still cannot decide what their fundamental doctrine is.

The comparison between Christianity and Islam is not of peripherals, its the doctrinal difference. Anyway waiting for a separate thread if you want to discuss.

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

There are two kind of revelation

  1. The recited one = Quran

  2. The un-recited one = Saying/acts of Prophet s.a.w. From time to time Allah would send this type of revelation but it would not be part of the Quran, but Prophet s.a.w would explain it to the people through this actions, words etc.

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

OKay, upon running a couple of other research I also came across some verses from the Quran suggesting that Prophet SAW indeed was allowed to make decisions and believers are supposed to follow them:
**
Surah AL-AHZAB, verse 36: "It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path"

Surah Nisa verse 59 "O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination."

Surah Hashr verse 7 "And whatsoever the messenger giveth you, take it. And whatsoever he forbiddeth, abstain (from it). And keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is stern in reprisal."**
**
Surah Nisa verse 65 "But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction."

**A small excerpt that i would also like to add from a site:

[quote]
We read in Surah al Hadeed "Oh you who believe, fear Allah and believe in his Prophet". The words "oh you who believe" illustrate that Allah is addressing the Muslims and in particular addressing the Companions of the Prophet during the time of the verse's revelation. Allah's command to the Companions to "believe in the Prophet" suggests that even during the Prophet's (s) lifetime there existed those who believed in Allah but did not possess a correct belief in the Prophet (s), hence necessitating the revelation of such a verse. Thus, as Muslims we cannot truly believe until we believe in the Prophet (s). Consequently if we have doubts in what the Prophet says and commands, then naturally our belief in the Prophet is flawed.

Amongst the Muslims a major difference of opinion is with regards to the exact nature of belief in the Prophet (s). One school asserts that obedience to the Prophet is unconditional in all circumstances, whereas the other attests that obedience is only obligatory when the Prophet (s) is speaking within his capacity as a Prophet (s). This is a major difference and in effect goes to the very heart of disunity; yet a Muslim does not have true faith until he has correct belief in the Prophet (s). For this reason is it is essential to clarify the truth of this matter.

*What does the Qur'an tell us? *

** In fact, there exist no verses in the Qur'an that prove the second thesis that obedience to the Prophet (s) is conditional and limited only to certain circumstances. On the contrary, the Qur'an makes clear that obedience to Allah (swt) can only occur if one obeys the Prophet (s) unconditionally - since the Qur'an deliberately excludes mention of any particular conditions in which obedience is not obligatory. Rather, the Qur'an commands us to obey the Prophet, and does not restrict our obedience to only a particular area. Allah (swt) is the absolute Judge, but sent Muhammad (s) to act on His behalf, so that humankind would seek guidance through the Last Messenger***.*
[/quote]
All of this strongly supports the ideology that whatever Prophet SAW did, said, or decided is doubtlessly true and in harmony with the revelations. It is just like Quran ordered to pray and Prophet SAW showed us how to....,. Or Prophet SAW forbade to consume alcohol, however, nowhere in Quran alcohol consumption is forbidden (as far as my knowledge goes, PLEASE correct me if I am wrong)

Also, about the authenticity of Hadith as someone said earlier these Hadiths are handed to us by the same chain of people who compiled and handed us the Quran, so if one believes in Quran and doesn't question its authenticity, one should not question about the authenticity of Hadith either and should take them with same seriousness.

Now, what about stoning to death??? Be logical, sounds harsh but in fact targets one of the biggest evils of the society. And as i said earlier, the harsher the punishment the lesser would be chances for the crime to happen again in the future. Painlessly taking a criminal's life by lethal injection is not a punishment in my opinion... it's just like passing out after being anesthetized.... it is not setting any horrific example that would make people think twice before committing the crime in the future. Ever realized that killing oneself with a gun shot is just a matter of seconds, so it is a fun way of dying for some weirdos after carrying out a mass massacre.... what a less painful way of punishing oneself.

However, my understanding by putting all the things together is: Prophet SAW ordered adulterers (married) to be stoned to death --> Quran says to follow and obey Prophet SAW --> Islamic punishment for adulterers (married ones) is stoned to death.

But again, Islam, being the kindest religion of all, insists that the punishment should be prevented as much as possible. A’isha narrated that the Prophet (pbuh) said: **

‘Ward off punishment as much as you can. If you find any way out for a Muslim then set him free. If the Imam makes a mistake in granting forgiveness, it is better for him than that he should commit a mistake in imposing punishment.’ **

Thus any doubt about the evidence should prevent the punishment.

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

Sister…In the quran it is written that…

Prophet(pbuh) not speak from his own will…but it is wahi which is revealed on him…

means…Wo apni marzi sai kuch nahi bolta …yai wahi hai jo us par bhaiji jati hai…

It is written in quran…so that is why Ahadees are wahi ghai matloo…means the revelation without talawaat…

Once Abdullah bin Amr bin Al’aas(ra) asked prophet(pbuh) should i also wrirte ahadees of your when you are in anger…Prophet(pbuh) replied ..write it Abdullah…I swear of that Allah…which created me that …even in anger …i will not any word which is against the will of Allah and wrong…

So…clearly shows that Ahadees also have very great importance…I accept that…ahadees collection cannot reach the quran collection level…as for 1400 years…All ummah is unanmious that…there is not even a single word missing in quran which is revealed on Prophet(pbuh)…and quran collection was taken into account after the battle of Yamamam just in a year after prophet(pbuh() death …also hadees were collected by Abdullah ibne Al’as…and abu hurarira …etc…

There can be difference ibnn a particular hadees but not in quran…but even in Ahadees…Muslim amd Bukhari are considered to be the best…and anyone ahadees if exist both in 2 books..considered to be beyond any doubt factor …100 % right…also 6 and other books…but point is…you cannot simply neglect the ahadees…and only ponder to Quran…Quran not speak about how to perform Salah…the greatest pillar of islam…but its only through ahadees we come across that…

Quran is like the supreme authority…around which all islam revolves…but it never goes into details…its the ahadees which tell about…

Similarly…Its from Quran and Ahadees…we deduce different problems…and this science is known as “Fiqah”…of 4 greatest imams ..like Abu Hanifa etc…

Similarly…since…These Fiqahs were compiled 1200 years back…with change of time…many changes are required as Islam is for every age…Yes..we have another tool…called as **"Ijtihaad
**…so that nobody dare to say that Islam is out-dated…but only very high knowledgable man can do that…so that not even a single quranic ayat and any shaheeh hadees is contradicted…so super knowledge is required…unfortunately..we have left this tool for 1200 years…

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

Excellent post by Conservative Girl....

One thing i want to add very humbly..that is.....

If any body will see this stonning ...as every punishment by islamic law SHOULD be given publicly...then hardly...nearly impossible that in his whole life he will ever think of doing adultery... I am not saying he will fear of doing Adultery...i am saying ...even not think about it....and that the real message of such a harsh punishment.....

Daikahi Mughai jo Deeda-i-Ibrat Nigah ho


means stonning one to death...and preventing thousands who are watching him...that in their rest of life..they even not think about this crime.....

99.99 % chance that...a person who will see this horrible scene will ever dare to commit zina.....

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

I have 3 questions for you.

1) When did I label someone as non-muslim?

2) Lady! what is wrong with you?

3) "accept you did what you did".....what did i do?

And yes I follow only truth and I don't follow false prophets.

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

What would anybody make of this comment by Mr. Khanbabax? This is totaly ridicolous to say or think that an Hadith can supercede anything in the Holy Quran. Innah lillah he wa innah ilahe Rajeoon

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

nice answer to pathani dawa-I-dil bhai.

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

:salam:

Br., let me summarize as I see it.

Quran is the inanimate example of Allah SWT message. Its form will stay unchanged. It is immutable.

Ahadith are the animate example of Allah SWT message. Its form varies and so does its interpretation and application. It is not immutable since actions vary from person to person, with intent to intent, with situation to situation, the Prophet SAW lived his life and much of it is preserved in the books of sunnah and history. You will live your life, you will have different circumstances than him SAW, different challenges and different priorities.

The message in the Quran is time independent whereas the Prophet SAW life was time dependent. Many of us fail to realize this and often become over zealous and go astray when we mix up the time dimensions of our life and the Prophet SAW life.

The ahadith are best understood in my opinion when you try to understand the message or guidance of the Quran and how the Prophet SAW acted upon it given the circumstances of his time. The ahadith are best acted upon when you understand the message or guidance of the Quran, the wisdom or injunctions in the ahadith and the circumstances you live in.

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

but plz tell me......prophet(pbuh) said i am sent to destroy musical instruments...its means...today...musical instruments are allowed as ahadees are not time independent ...

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

If you study the circumstances that would pave way for more better understanding don't you think.

The first thing I would ask myself is, was there are reason why the Prophet SAW said this. Can we find a reason from the historical context of the hadith first of all. And to further the disucssion can you also quote the hadith.

Not at musical instruments are music to people today.

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

No wonder your aversion to things closely related to Islam...

Have you heard of Hadees-e-Qudsi...In case you haven't, which I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case, do look it up...

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

Or Prophet(SAW) ordered to grow beard but today no need to grow beard bcoz then people used to live in desert and to avoid sand they used to grow beards??????????????

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

Not any hadees but ahadees that are Mutawatir. Its not only my view but view of the Sunni jurists/muhaddits.

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

Islam is for all the times, and if Prophet s.a.w ordered something 1400+ years ago, it is also applicable today. There is no excuse of time differences or there is no difference between Islam and other religions. Early religions were only for certain time period and nations, but Islam is for till day of Qiyamat, and so are the rules in there for till the day of Judgement.

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

But Allah also gave us brains so that we can think and adapt.

I mean whats the point of having a brain if you are just going to do and live your life like your ancestors lived ?

Don't you think by having a brain and having philosophical and intellectual discussions that we can make fit Islam in today's modern and technological world?

Or do you want to continue living in the 6th Century?

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

Historically, this is not the case. The Quran was compiled much earlier than the Hadith, under the Noble Caliphs.

The Quran was not compiled by Bukhari, or Muslim, etc....nor does it need any verification of it's authenticity by checking a chain of transmitters. Nor did any scholar pour over the ayats determining if each one was correct - that was done during the Prophet's life, the Quran having been compiled as a whole for the first time under Abu Bakr Siddiq (ra).

The earliest known compilation of Hadith can trace back to the first century after the Hijrah, a totally different time scale. Even then, their classifications and the way to handle them were not set...that would be done much later.

So the two do not share the same lifespan or origins.

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

You try to understand Religion through your intellect (if it makes sense fine, or forget it. And we put our intellect under Religion.

Wahi > Intellect
Hadees > Intellect

Whole religion of Islam is from the 6th century, why not create a new religion since its the 21st century? And we live in so called modern times, those people were backward. :halo:

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

THats not the case, hadees were written down by many Sahabas. Abdullah bin Amr bin al-As for one, used to write down what he heard from his Master. Other Companions too put their collections of Hadith into writing later in life, particularly Abu Hurayrah and Abdullah b.Abbas, two very important sources of Hadith. So these are the same people who narrated us Quran and Hadees. As far as scale for the classifications of ahadees, it was not even needed at that time, since there was no corruption and when you scale a hadees, you only go up to the tabi and not a Sahabi. Classifications were created later on when some people tried to make up fake hadees, so the muhadithoon came up with the criteris to prevent that.