The concept of being Stoned to Death

[picoico]

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

@khanbabax

THats not the case, hadees were written down by many Sahabas. Abdullah bin Amr bin al-As for one, used to write down what he heard from his Master....

I know, *some *were. We're talking about compiling them in a form that we have to this day.

*Obviously *narrations of the Sunnah would come from the Prophet's era, and ultimately relayed by the companions or their students...otherwise they'd be completely useless.

The point is, the first efforts to compile hadith and propgate them in a coherent and consistant way was at the very earliest in the first century AH.

How on earth is this akin to how the Quran was transmitted?

[quote]

So these are the same people who narrated us Quran and Hadees.

[/quote]

Even the hadith have it that the Quran was narrated by the Prophet (saw), and only him (obviously). LOL…no ayat begins with “so-and-so narrated that the Prophet (saw) said that…”. The Quran's collection was ordered by Abu Bakr Siddiq (ra) on the advice of Umar (ra), and the deed completed by Zaid bin Thabit. In one shot, he collected the material from written records and from people's memory. That's where we get the Quran, as we know it today, from.

So if the transmission of the Hadith are as reliable as the transmission of the Quran, we should take this as 100% evidence as to the Quran’s special status, in terms of at the very least the concern the companions had over its preservation (no such concern over our body of Hadith can be found within the Hadith). And of course, if the Hadith are not 100% reliable…then well, not much to say, is there? So either way…the Quran is something more special than the Hadith.

Where do the Hadith come from? All of them. Yes, yes...they are *attributed *to the companions...but who collected them, where, how and when? Isnad does not record that information with a guaranteed reliability...how difficult would it be to simply *say *so-and-so narrated a Hadith?

Yes, there are a variety of checks...but that's getting besides the point. Such questions don't even arise with the Quran, highlighting its special nature and distinct status from the narrations found in the Hadith. I noticed you glossed over that point in my last post. So yes, I know why the classifications were invented, and I do think it’s a very good thing. But the point is, the Quran requires no such validation, does it?

Remember, this isn’t about throwing the Hadith out the window…it’s about putting them in their place with respect to none other than the Quran.

[mercenary2k]

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

@khanbabax

You try to understand Religion through your intellect (if it makes sense fine, or forget it. And we put our intellect under Religion.

Wahi > Intellect
Hadees > Intellect

Back in the 10th and 11th Centuries, Mosque was not just a building for prayer but it was a place for discussion, exchange of ideas, thoughts, debates.

@khanbabax

Whole religion of Islam is from the 6th century, why not create a new religion since its the 21st century? And we live in so called modern times, those people were backward. :halo:

So if Islam is from the 6th Century then that means we should live like we are in the 6th Century.

This is called ignorance. Islam is robust enough, adaptable enough that we can make it fit in the 21st Century…

Simple example, the Azaan. Before we used a human voice to sound prayer, now we use loud speakers

Another was spotting the moon for Ramadan, now we can use Observatories to do the same task which is much more accurate

Its these kinds of things

Growing a beard was because 1 the people didnt have a razor, second shaving caused infection and 3rd having a beard protected the face from sand and the sun

But with modern technology, we no longer need a beard to protect us from nature’s harshness

So then a beard is no longer required

For example, 100 years from now, there is a technology which allows women to appear fully covered but in reality its a just a computer device which makes it appear that women are covered. So will that be allowed?

In my opinion, it should be. It will free women from their suffocating burka but there will be some people who will say no no, women have to wear abaya and not a digital illusion

[USResident]

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

@khanbabax

THats not the case, hadees were written down by many Sahabas. Abdullah bin Amr bin al-As for one, used to write down what he heard from his Master. Other Companions too put their collections of Hadith into writing later in life, particularly Abu Hurayrah and Abdullah b.Abbas, two very important sources of Hadith. So these are the same people who narrated us Quran and Hadees. As far as scale for the classifications of ahadees, it was not even needed at that time, since there was no corruption and when you scale a hadees, you only go up to the tabi and not a Sahabi. Classifications were created later on when some people tried to make up fake hadees, so the muhadithoon came up with the criteris to prevent that.

Might be that ahadith were written down however how come no copy of the original scrolls of ahadith survived.

It always astonished me at how much fabrication existed. Out of the ahadith Imam Bukhari collected, only less than 1% were authenticated. Needle in a haystack proportion. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this to reject ahadith or anything like that but what is true is true.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

There are two kind of revelation

1. The recited one = Quran

2. The un-recited one = Saying/acts of Prophet s.a.w. From time to time Allah would send this type of revelation but it would not be part of the Quran, but Prophet s.a.w would explain it to the people through this actions, words etc.

This is the problem. These guys believe that the Sunnah is no different from the Quran because it is a revelation. Its not a revelation. You were instructed to look at the Prophet's example, as just that. An example. The Prophet didn't really do or say anything that wasn't given to him in a formal revelation that was to be revealed to the population. He was their guide, but that's not the same thing as saying his actions are a revelation. And that his every sentence, even if it was "I like this chicken wing" was a revelation. Islam also tells you that the Prophet was a human being, like any other, except that he was getting a message from God. But to go to the extent to worship the Prophet's every move and mimic it in your own life causes you to be restricted, and Islam is not about restriction. Its a very flexible religion that you people are making restrictive. If you're going to copy every tidbit of the Prophet's life, then why leave out riding around on a camel? You ride a car, or a bus. Because its easier, and a camel is not do-able in this world in whatever city you live in.

So why don't you apply the same logic to other things like growing a beard, or in this case, stoning?

Or is that Lexus too hot?

[system]

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

@khanbabax

THats not the case, hadees were written down by many Sahabas. Abdullah bin Amr bin al-As for one, used to write down what he heard from his Master. Other Companions too put their collections of Hadith into writing later in life, particularly Abu Hurayrah and Abdullah b.Abbas, two very important sources of Hadith. So these are the same people who narrated us Quran and Hadees. As far as scale for the classifications of ahadees, it was not even needed at that time, since there was no corruption and when you scale a hadees, you only go up to the tabi and not a Sahabi. Classifications were created later on when some people tried to make up fake hadees, so the muhadithoon came up with the criteris to prevent that.

exactly....very beautiful...reply....

picoico..prophet(pbuh) himself sent the ahadees regarding the zakat and sadqa matters to the sana,Yemen..to Muaz bin Jabal...

*abu hurraira used to say that...although i remainedwith prohet(pbuh) but Abdullah bin amr bin al'as ha more ahadees memorized than me..because he used to write every hadees while i did not do that...i just memorized that....

*abu hurraira have written this ahadees to his student Hammam ...with name...i think..shaheefa sadiqa....

in the era of ummayyads and mostly in abbasids...due to historical tribal clash between ummayads and hashmises...which is the basi reason of shia sunni division...both parties fabricated ahadees to prove tier points....so then Muslim Bukhari ....raised and seperated the wrong one with pure one....it does not mean that 2 hijri muslims compiled ahadees...they just collected under different topics and subjects...some only collected the ahadees from one sahabi...etc etc..different ways of compiling books....but ahadees are actually transmitted as said by Conservative Girl...from the same sahabs which compiled quran.....

[system]

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

This is the problem. These guys believe that the Sunnah is no different from the Quran because it is a revelation. Its not a revelation. You were instructed to look at the Prophet's example, as just that. An example. The Prophet didn't really do or say anything that wasn't given to him in a formal revelation that was to be revealed to the population. He was their guide, but that's not the same thing as saying his actions are a revelation. And that his every sentence, even if it was "I like this chicken wing" was a revelation. Islam also tells you that the Prophet was a human being, like any other, except that he was getting a message from God. But to go to the extent to worship the Prophet's every move and mimic it in your own life causes you to be restricted, and Islam is not about restriction. Its a very flexible religion that you people are making restrictive. If you're going to copy every tidbit of the Prophet's life, then why leave out riding around on a camel? You ride a car, or a bus. Because its easier, and a camel is not do-able in this world in whatever city you live in.

So why don't you apply the same logic to other things like growing a beard, or in this case, stoning?

Or is that Lexus too hot?

**It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path"

Surah Nisa verse 59 "O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination."

Surah Hashr verse 7 "And whatsoever the messenger giveth you, take it. And whatsoever he forbiddeth, abstain (from it). And keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is stern in reprisal."

Surah Nisa verse 65 "But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction."**

the example of chicken wing and camel is ridiculous as prophet(pbuh) said that do not follow me in wordly affairs when someone asked him about date growng method...and prophet(pbuh) said one thing..and one sahabi told better ..then prophet(pbuh) replied that....

we are talking about religious matters....
cars...toyota...swords and missiles have nothing to do with prophet(pbuh) and sunnah....but changing the religious principles in name of hadees negation is not so new...pervaizi .....also did that....

[Croquet]

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

I am with picoico on this one. Hadith were compiled much later in the manner we have them today to my understanding . But as i said earlier if it mutwatir and doesn't conflict with Quran e pak. No reason to consider it zaeef. If and when there is a clear contradiction between Quran e Pak and Hadith then obviously Quran supersedes the hadith right? Since Quran cannot be adulterated and hadith can be.

[system]

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

^^if you simply want to follow what you want..then plz. go on...why you cover yourself before the curtain of zaeef ahadees and that thing ..."If they not contradicts with Quran" ...i have already answered that question...allah cannot say one thing at one time which contradicts with |His another saying...You know what a false blame you are putting on Allah....

and you are not above "Salf Salihoon...as in hadees they were the best people...sahabs,,,,tabai...taba tabai...etc....their merits...virues and status is beyond all of us......so..its better for you to do yourself research to find all zaeef and shaheeh rather to deped upon bukhari or muslim or other ahadees books...then tell us...how much you succeeded ....!!!!!!!!!

[system]

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

@USResident

If you study the circumstances that would pave way for more better understanding don’t you think.

The first thing I would ask myself is, was there are reason why the Prophet SAW said this. Can we find a reason from the historical context of the hadith first of all. And to further the disucssion can you also quote the hadith.

Not at musical instruments are music to people today.

nope..sorry brother …there is no REASONING in islam…to listen..is to obey…

reasoning is the attitude of Bani Israel…for what they did with cow …and its slaughtering as in Sura BAqra…and then what allah did with them…they will wander till qiyyammah in world and give azab to them by different people as in quran…

so …its not allowed to ask reason …

Surah Hashr verse 7 “And whatsoever the messenger giveth you, take it. And whatsoever he forbiddeth, abstain (from it). And keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is stern in reprisal.”

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did there in any hadees that sahabs asked the pophet(pbuh) following questions…

• why gold allow for women..why not to men…

*why silk allowed to women..why not to men

*why gold and silvr utensils are not allowed..whats wrong with them…

etc etc…

so ..as in above quran says..take it what he gives ..and leave what he forbidden…

also prophet(pbuh) said …Do not ask so many questions…previous ummahs destroyed because of it…

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ahadees about musical instruments…

**The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:
[FONT=Times New Roman] “Among my ummah there will certainly be people who permit zinaa, silk, alcohol and musical instruments…” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari ta’leeqan, no. 5590; narrated as mawsool by al-Tabaraani and al-Bayhaqi. See al-Silsilah al-Saheehah by al-Albaani, 91).

It was narrated that Naafi’ (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: Ibn ‘Umar heard a woodwind instrument, and he put his fingers in his ears and kept away from that path. He said to me, O Naafi’, can you hear anything? I said, No. So he took his fingers away from his ears and said: I was with the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and he heard something like this, and he did the same thing. (Saheeh Abi Dawood)

**

Al-Tirmidhi reported in his Sunan (no. 1005) from Ibn Abi Layla from ‘Ata’ from Jaabir (may Allaah be pleased with him) who said: “The Messenger of Allaah

http://www.islam-qa.com/images/saws.gif

(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) went to to al-Nakhl with ‘Abd al-Rahmaan ibn ‘Awf, when his son Ibraaheem was dying. He took the child in his lap and his eyes filled with tears. ‘Abd al-Rahmaan said, ‘Are you weeping when you have forbidden us to weep?’ He said, 'I do not forbid weeping. What I have forbidden is two foolish and evil kinds of voices: voices at times of entertainment and play and the flutes of the Shaytaan, and voices at times of calamity and scratching the face and rending the garments and screaming.’”

It was reported in a saheeh hadeeth from the Prophet

http://www.islam-qa.com/images/saws.gif

(peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “In my ummah there will be people who allow fornication/adultery (zina), silk, wine and musical instruments ma’aazif]. Some people will stay at the side of a mountain, and they will have flocks of sheep. When a poor person comes in the evening to ask them for something he needs, they will say. ‘Come back to us tomorrow.’ Then during the night Allaah will destroy them by causing the mountain to fall upon them, while He changes others into apes and swine. They will remain in such a state until the Day of Resurrection.’”

[khanbabax]

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

"Indeed in the Messenger of Allah, you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah much"
Qur'an, al-Ahzab 33:21]

And he (the Prophet ( ) does not speak out of his own desire. It is not but a revelation revealed (to him). (53:3-4)

^^
This ayat clearly mentions that Prophet s.a.w doesnt speak from Himself but its a revelation from Allah (as in un-recited revelation)

People who say revelation is only confined to the Quran have themselves not read the Quran.

[khanbabax]

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

I am with picoico on this one. Hadith were compiled much later in the manner we have them today to my understanding . But as i said earlier if it mutwatir and doesn't conflict with Quran e pak. No reason to consider it zaeef. If and when there is a clear contradiction between Quran e Pak and Hadith then obviously Quran supersedes the hadith right? Since Quran cannot be adulterated and hadith can be.

There is no such thing as conflict between the Quran and Sunnah, its just our small limited minds think there is a contradicton but in reality there is no contradiction. To say that there is contradiction is implying that Prophet s.a.w acted contrary to the Quran. Something that might seems like contradictory to us is infact not a contradiction and Mujtadhis have always been able to reconcile between the two.

[khanbabax]

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

Might be that ahadith were written down however how come no copy of the original scrolls of ahadith survived.

It always astonished me at how much fabrication existed. Out of the ahadith Imam Bukhari collected, only less than 1% were authenticated. Needle in a haystack proportion. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this to reject ahadith or anything like that but what is true is true.

Yea deviant people always tried to do this but they were not successful in their mission, because Hadees in an explaination of the Quran and if ahdees are lost, there is no way you can understand the Quran so Allah also protected the Ahadees of his Prophet s.a.w.

Also if you read the prefdace of Bukhari he mentioned that I have only wrote around 10000 ahadees in my Saheeh, but it doesnt mean there are not any more Saheeh ahadees (He himself mentioned it).

[khanbabax]

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

[quote]

So why don't you apply the same logic to other things like growing a beard, or in this case, stoning?

Or is that Lexus too hot?

[/quote]

What a flawed logic. Allah jab aqal cheen laita hai tou loog kaisi kasi pagal batain karte hain. :D
Growing beard and stoing are part of Sharia because Prophet s.a.w ordered us to do that, and this is for all the times till the day of Judgement.

Riding camels or cars are not part of the Sharia nor did Prophet s.a.w ordered us to ride camels, unless you can show me any proof. On the other hand their are clear cut orders of Prophet s.a.w where he ordered the Muslims to grow the beard.

[khanbabax]

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

[QUOTE]
So then a beard is no longer required
[/QUOTE]

Show me from the Quran that beard is not required in the 21st century.

[system]

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

@khanbabax

Nor did Prophet s.a.w ordered us to ride camels,

:D

[system]

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

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[Croquet]

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

@khanbabax

There is no such thing as conflict between the Quran and Sunnah, its just our small limited minds think there is a contradicton but in reality there is no contradiction. To say that there is contradiction is implying that Prophet s.a.w acted contrary to the Quran. Something that might seems like contradictory to us is infact not a contradiction and Mujtadhis have always been able to reconcile between the two.

I thought it was obvious what i was trying to say. There can't be a contradiction between sunnah and Quran, true. But some people unfortunately fabricate hadith, a contradiction can only occur in that form, agree? I mean its not impossible that some people blatantly lie. Bear in mind I am not talking about the topic at hand.

Dawa i dil, read what i wrote again and this time take a cool drink while you are at it.

[system]

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

^^ sir ...what the remedy bukari...muslim...and al-bani suggested for that ...

[system]

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

they purified it to the maximum limit...so what else you want....

[Croquet]

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

oh bhai sahab main nay kab kaha hai kay unkay method main ghalti hai?hypothetical baat ho rahi hai, itna defensive hona bhi acha nahi. thanday pay jao.