The concept of being Stoned to Death

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

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Also the Qu'ran was transmitted not through being written down, but by being memorised orally initially. Same with hadith - the teacher would teach the student by mouth until the student could recite verbatim. This is why we have so many hafiz - oral memorisation is one of the foundations of our scholarship.

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Khanbabax, don't go there. Do not compare the Quran with the Hadith. Not the text, and not the transmission.

The Quran was well known to all and sundry when the hadith were an abstract concept strewn all about...yes, they have value but the value is secondary to the Quran.

If indeed the hadith cause you to believe in "missing" ayats, then what precludes the possibility of missing sahih hadith that in fact abrogate those hadith, that in turn were used to abrogate the Quran? The methodology of scholars? Thats a joke.

Their contribution is to be recognized, and taken seriously. But if it's causing one to cast doubt on the primacy of the Quran, and it's divine declaration of being complete and pristine, then I'd sooner abandon the hadith wholesale than even consider such nonsense about the Quran.

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Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

USResident, when there are no easy-to-understand rules to follow on such important issues such as this concept of stoning, it makes it almost irrelevant that one of the doctrines you follow is the unaltered word of God. If people are still stoning adulterers at this point in our history, there is an interpretation issue that wouldn't exist if the word of God was enough for us to follow. At least with the Christianity, if they want to follow the fundamentalist view of their religion they don't have to cross reference several books. If we are to claim some authenticity superiority over Christianity because our book is perfect, then we lose that distinction when we start mixing in other books by other people.

If we can't understand God's word minimal direction from others, we are making it too hard. The challenges he presents us are enough to contend without having to cross reference what 5 different people said about something that someone else said that someone else said. That leaves way too much to interpretation. Posts such as these illustrate my point

[quote]
Besides what is the scholars take on it? They are best equipped to deal with questions like this, to my understanding rajm is declared islamic hudd under all muslim doctrines, including four imams. So i dont deem myself educated enough to contradict with them without any solid reason just because there not an ayat stating about rajm. As i said to someone earlier
[/quote]
How educated does someone have to be to know if stoning is God's prescribed punishment for adultery? If 1400 years have passed and this basic question still cannot be answered definitively, then evidently even educated Muslims are unable to answer this question. Why would God make his last message so hard to understand and implement?

IMHO if you are close to God and try to be a spiritual person, you know the answer to this issue and if the Quran "covers the very fundamentals needed to be a muslim in the eyes of Allah SWT", then surely we all do.

~SMS~
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Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

***The people involved in this killing are not even muslims. They are called Yazidis. This is more of a cultural thing rather than religious so keep the religion and especially Islamic fatwas out of it.

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Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

LOL, I know life takes Visa, but that is just what "Visa" says. You know the truth. Actually, life takes cash as well, no CC needed. Whoever thinks otherwise is as smart as a dodo.

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Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

[quote]
If indeed the hadith cause you to believe in "missing" ayats, then what precludes the possibility of missing sahih hadith that in fact abrogate those hadith, that in turn were used to abrogate the Quran? The methodology of scholars? Thats a joke.
[/quote]

Can you tell me where was the word missing used? Did you even read my posts, as I have explained that reading of this ayat was abrogated but its rule still exists.

Anyways, our aruging over this issue wont change anything, we are laymen, and example of Prophet s.a.w., Khulfa e Rashidoon, Sahabas and the Imams is enough for us.

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Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

yea well if you are familiar with M2K the starter of the thread he has the habit of launching ideas on crutches. But it has been discussed in the earlier pages of thread that incident at hand has nothing to do with islam yet it is used as an example of rajm.

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Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

Logically that is not possible. Mutwatir or consistent hadith means A told this to B and C got it from A while B is the witness and confirmed to its authenticity. That is how Quran was compiled and when a hadith is consistent it is as authentic as Quran . Since the A,B and C remain the same. Secondly the hadith under scrutiny here does not contradict with the Qurani ayat so if its mutwatir and in harmony no reason to doubt its sehat.

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Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

What is Mutawatir Hadees.

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Mutawatir ( متواتر) is an Arabic word meaning "consecutive." A hadith is said to be mutawatir if it was reported by a significant number of narrators at each chain in the narration, and therefore through multiple chain of narrationsleading back toProphet Muhammed s.a.w . This provides confirmation that the hadith is sahih to a level beyond reasonable doubt, as it is beyond historical possibility that narrators could have conspired to forge a narration. Hadiths can be mutawatir in both actual text and meaning.

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149

Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

Quran and its recitations are also Mutawatir.

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Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

Stoning to death is there in theory however in practice it is quite hard if not impossible to build this sort of case. Below are just few points to show how hard it is to implicate someone in a crime of this manner.

1) If there is an iota of doubt then the whole case is flawed, you cannot carry out the capital punishment.

2) 4 people have to witness the action, camera or DNA testing cannot be taken as primary evidence.

3) the four people have to say that they actually witnessed the action.

4) severe interrogation and cross examination will have to take place.

5) the motive of the man and woman will have to be taken into consideration, for example if it was a case of blackmailing or a threat from some one else.

Is this is not the case, then had cant be en-forced, and only taziri punishment will be en-forced.

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Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

^Exactly from what i have read that the number of times rajm was carried out till the period of Hazrat Ali r. could be counted on hands.

To my understanding it essentially stops the public fornication, that wipes out the porn industry and the likes of today's world. If i can get a porn free world at the expanse of rajm so be it. More than happy.

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Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

Missing...as in missing from the Quranic text, as directly implied by this third category. I perfectly understand what abrogation is, and the classifications presented.

The rule still exists not because of mention of the ayat, but because of other hadith that elaborate.

As I mentioned before, it's impossible for an ayat not in the Quran to replace one that is inside it. That's a nonsensical concept, and has no justification from the Quran or the Hadith itself. If some scholars think that's an acceptable classification, that's their prerogative. They do need to explain it, though.

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Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

I understand…

[quote]

That is how Quran was compiled...

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This is incorrect. The Quran was not transmitted strictly through an oral chain, nor was it's transmission an act of opportunistic collection (i.e. we'll take what we can get). It's structure and layout were well known at the time of collection, much of it preserved by ink.

Most importantly, the text of the Quran itself outlines the special nature of the Quran, it's transmission, and it's preservation. That is what distinguishes it from Hadith, and so any such comparison with Hadith is absurd.

[quote]

and when a hadith is consistent it is as authentic as Quran .

[/quote]

Please, understand who coined that rule. These were scholars, and we do not have the concept of divine inspiration in Islam.

A Sahih hadith that is Qudsi, supported, and continuous is not guaranteed to be correct, as it is the end result of a human endeavor. We can say it is reasonably reliable through a chain of orators. An Ayat is undisputable by divine decree. Scholars have pronounced certain hadith as equivalent to revelation (Qudsi). That was them...the classification was not coined by the Quran...nor the Prophet (saw).

For the most part, it's a good and reasonable system. It's what we can call a good innovation.

But, when we deal with abrogation, we're in dangerous territory.

[quote]

Since the A,B and C remain the same. Secondly the hadith under scrutiny here does not contradict with the Qurani ayat so if its mutwatir and in harmony no reason to doubt its sehat.
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That wasn't the point. If you read back, the initial objection was to the invocation of an ayat that was meant to be in the Quran, the text apparently destroyed, and so excluded from the Quran.

Even the classification of it's narration as being abrogated is problematic if one studies the Hadith. According to the Hadith, Umar (ra) was insistent that if it were not for political pressure, he would have added that verse into the Quran. That does *not *imply it's text was meant to be abrogated.

Anyway, this is going beyond the point. Yes, the hadith can be considered to elaborate on the Quran in this case, and not contradict. My advice is to stay away from invoking certain hadith without understanding the complete implications of it, and by no means play with the concept of the primacy of the Quran.

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Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

Loooooooooonnnnnggggggg deeeeeeeep breath!!!!!

JAK all for discussing with me. My intention was to analyze the stoning from all angles, to do so ofcourse I also played the devils advocate. Most of the explanations I heard were not really explanations but I think I've managed to piece it all together.

The Quranic ayat specifically mentions flogging as a punishment for the Zaani. In arabic the term zaani is used for both married and unmarried people.

There are numerous ahadith that describe the punishment for a zaani who is married to be Rajm or stoning to death. The term rajm is not found in the Quran under this context, this is a fact however it is used in ahadith. No doubt in that either, I read through the arabic of the ahadith also.

The explanations that the Quranic verse was abrogated is no where near sensible. Quranic verse are only abrogated through other Quranic verses. I have never seen a single instance thus far where a hadith is used to abrogate a Quranic verse.

Ahadith definitely do explain further Quranic verses, there is no doubt in this or may add new injunctions which are absent from the Quran.

Here is the conclusion I have come to after all this debating (I've bounced from one opinion to another in order to research this), the ahadith which mention Rajm and the fact that all Sahaba, Khalifas and subsequent rulers applied it, is not in anyway abrogating the Quranic verse of flogging as has been explained here by some, it is infact further categorizing the term Zaani used in the Quranic verse into married and unmarried people. The Quran did not separate the married or unmarried under the word Zaani but the ahadith separated out the married under the word Zaani. So in essence it did not abrogate anything but further explained Zaani by specifying its categories. Since it further explained how to deal when the Zaani is married, the unmarried are dealt with as described in the Quran i.e. flogged.

All the conditions must be satisfied to prove Zina when applying either one of the hudood.

Now back to the topic, what happened to the girl is totally petrifying. Zina was never proved or even tried for. If it was even proved she was not to be stoned but rather flogged. And since they were Yezidi, it is not even known whether they follow Islam. However the bottomline is, the poor girl was lynched and brutalized by the mob, this was no punishment.

One interesting thing we do find in the ahadith is that the Prophet SAW did not prefer the Zaani to be stoned, in one hadith the man who confessed to Zina was ignored by the Prophet SAW until he insisted on this fate. This does show that the door to repentance is open and if the victim sincerely realizes what he did is wrong then the punishment can be aborted. However if the person persists in this act then the Hud becomes obligatory.

I did find in Bukhari where one companion had a different explanation. Interestingly I cannot find this hadith in any of the online versions of Bukhari. I found it in my personal copy. Its in Volume 8 under the Book of Hudood. Its narrated by Ash-Shaibani in which he questioned whether the Prophet SAW carried out Rajm before or after the revelation of Surah Noor. The answer given was "I don't know".

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Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

Really disturbing..

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Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

Someone here was saying that...if ahadees contradicts with quran..then what to follow....
this question is logically wrong...under two conditions....

1.either the ahadees are fabricated or mauzoo
2.It seems to be contradicts from which angel we are watching it...

this is because...

Quran=Wahi jalli...wahi matloo===means the wahi of jibreel which is recited ...matloo==talawat

Ahadees==quran khafi...wahi ghiar matloo....means wahi of jibreel which is not recited or talawat.....

so quran ==saying of Allah
ahadees==saying of Allah

can anybody think that Allah almighty will say one thing which will contradict other.....

impossible.....

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Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

exactly....prophet(pbuh) at the most...preserved his ummah from punishment.....but only when man insisted like

1.Maiz bin Aslami
2.The woman of madina whom prophet(pbuh) sent three times to save her but she was so consistent that she came again and again for repentance until she was stoned.....

she was sent first time by just repentance...she not agreed
she was sent second time so that she can give birth to child
she was sent third time so that she can feed her child with milk....

third time she came with piece of roti to show prophet(pbuh) that now her child can eat roti instead to milk only....

then prophet(pbuh) ordered to tied her and then stonned her....

after that ...prophet(pbuh) replied...

i saved her at every moment but she was so repented that she did not take any advantage of my saving....If her Tauba will be divided over the 70 people of Madina...it will be sufficient for 70 people to enter paradise...have you seen such a great women who offered her life in the path of Allah for repentance....

this was the reply of prophet(pbuh).....

even when prophet(pbuh) ordered to stone Maiz bin Aslami....and when people threw stones on him....he ran..and sadi that my tribe betrayed me...and they said that ..prophet(pbuh) will not give me punishment....and this is reality....prophet(pbuh) 3 times turned his face to him and said that ...go...and ask repentance.....but people killed him....

when prophet(pbuh) heard that...he said in a sorrow voice...why you not brought aslam to me..may be he could repent to allah...why you stonned him when he said that...bring me to prophet(pbuh)

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Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

Agreed. My wording might've been different to yours and thus led to a misunderstanding but mainly this is what i wanted to say. As i said i am in process of learning myself therefore certain things remain fuzzed in my head.

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Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

Dont ya? Then how come you can condemn or label others as none Muslims? Stand by your own words. It must be some ullema, fatwa or the point of view of some extreme Jamaat you belong to, that makes you say a thing like that to others. Are you any better than white people having everything against Muslims?
How ironic, not only are Muslims forced to defend themselves and the name of Islam especially after 9/11, but now Muslims must also defend themselves from people within various sects under Islam.

I dont play with words or try to sugar coat a statement Ive thrown at the faces of others, Hareem01. You want to debate, then swallow your pride and admit, you did what you did. Its better to accept to have made a mistake, then pointing fingers at me....as if I forced your own words out of you.

You follow the truth, you say. Your "truth" doesnt seem to be very kind towards other fellow human beings. If you are so against others from similar
background, how are you not towards the rest of the world?
Didnt you learn anything by living in a democratic country?
Tolerance should be the very least.........

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Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death

I didn't even mention the word Islamic or fatwa in my comments - so stop being paranoid.