Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
May be all the ismailis ahmadies etc are black and all wahabis or whatever she's talking about are white.:D
Maybe a sudden country where majority of its people are Shia, your super intellectual insight will the very same.....None-muslims! Ergo, towards a nation and its population lets say being Persian, you have proven yourself as racist.
Racism can be of many nature or facets:
Due to sexual preference
Due to religious preference
Due to features of a sudden type of race.
So all in all, we are back to ground zero, that you are intolerant, racist and highly judgemental as Khanbabax too.....
And thanks heaven and Allahjee, there are a growing awareness amongst Muslims of today, that we need NOT to follow the practice of intolerance where we originally migrated from. Its high time, we eliminate the blunders of the past of killing each other due to intolerance. The narrow minded mentality should NOT be the part of future youth.
If it has, then these socalled closed isolated hatefull groups or jamaats should leave the western country, where all their way of living colides with country of residence. Ek imaan pe phir kharrey rehney ki himmat karey.
You cant have both ways..... Then its purely double standards.
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
Maybe a sudden country where majority of its people are Shia, your super intellectual insight will the very same.....None-muslims! Ergo, towards a nation and its population lets say being Persian, you have proven yourself as racist.
Racism can be of many nature or facets:
Due to sexual preference
Due to religious preference
Due to features of a sudden type of race.
So all in all, we are back to ground zero, that you are intolerant, racist and highly judgemental
may be you are looking into a mirror.
as Khanbabax too.....
And thanks heaven and Allahjee, there are a growing awareness amongst Muslims of today, that we need NOT to follow the practice of intolerance where we originally migrated from. Its high time, we eliminate the blunders of the past of killing each other due to intolerance. The narrow minded mentality should NOT be the part of future youth.
If it has, then these socalled closed isolated hatefull groups or jamaats should leave the western country, where all their way of living colides with country of residence. Ek imaan pe phir kharrey rehney ki himmat karey.
You cant have both ways..... Then its purely double standards.
I don't belong to a sect or a jammat so I don't need to leave this place........
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
I am not denying the ahadith
why not? what's so sacred about a bunch of fairy tales and lies conjured and propagated by the enemies of Islam? It's either Hadith or Qur'an.. take your pick.
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
why not? what's so sacred about a bunch of fairy tales and lies conjured and propagated by the enemies of Islam? It's either Hadith or Qur'an.. take your pick.
I don't recall I asked you for the choices.
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
When hadith contradict each other and the Quran, what other choice is there? When God promised the unchanged, final word revealed in the Quran, why would he put his followers through the maze of deciphering what is legitimate hadith and what isn't? It kind of makes the fact that the Quran is complete, 100% truth irrelevant if people are following hadith as though it is 100% truth as well. Then Islam is just like the Muslims view of Christianity - some of it is God's word, some of it is man-made.
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
Perhaps but if the account comes from the similar sahabis that transfered to us Quran than we need solid reason to refute the history according to similar sahabis.
Even when the Quran tells you the exact opposite? Because then you're putting a sahabah over God's word.
Do you approve of such wrongdoings?
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
When hadith contradict each other and the Quran, what other choice is there? When God promised the unchanged, final word revealed in the Quran, why would he put his followers through the maze of deciphering what is legitimate hadith and what isn't? It kind of makes the fact that the Quran is complete, 100% truth irrelevant if people are following hadith as though it is 100% truth as well. Then Islam is just like the Muslims view of Christianity - some of it is God's word, some of it is man-made.
Semi, no one here is comparing with Christianity so why the comment. And your generalizing. Whatever may be Gods word or man-made among muslims is and has been kept separate. You don't see ahadith mixed up in the compiled form of a Quran as we say is the case with the Bible.
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
Much of the way Islam is currently practiced is derived from hadith. Islamic law (as much as it is implemeneted) is mostly from hadith. The culture of Islam is from hadith. Fatwas come largely from hadith. I imagine whole curriculum from madrassahs are derived from hadith. So whether they are all in the same book or separate, the end result is the same. When Muslims search for answers they search the Quran and hadith, so you see, it is 'mixed up' as you believe the Bible is. Where it comes from is irrelevant if it is all part of the religion.
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
[QUOTE]
Br. the dilemma I have is that a verse of the Quran is in conflict with what is stated in the ahadith not that it is absent. If it was absent I would be following the ahadith.
[/QUOTE]
Brother its not in conflict, from outside it might seem that it is in comflict but in reality it is not.
[QUOTE]
The first hadith you have quoted says that it was revealed and Umar RAQ recited it, understood it and memorized it but where is it then. Where did he recite it from, obviously I would take this to mean the Quran. Then where is the verse of stoning in the Quran.
[/QUOTE]
As I have mentioned before, reading of this ayat was cancelled but ruling still remained.
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
Brother its not in conflict, from outside it might seem that it is in comflict but in reality it is not.
As I have mentioned before, reading of this ayat was cancelled but ruling still remained.
Br. Where is the verse?
No conflict, Akhi, Quran says flog them and the hadith says stone them and then you say you do not see a difference unless flogging means to stone or stoning means to flog.
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
Yes shame on the people who do this in the name of religion, shame on those who were watching (incluing the security forces). Gutless bas…rds.
**I refuse to accept that any religion of GOD wold permit this. **
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
Much of the way Islam is currently practiced is derived from hadith. Islamic law (as much as it is implemeneted) is mostly from hadith. The culture of Islam is from hadith. Fatwas come largely from hadith. I imagine whole curriculum from madrassahs are derived from hadith. So whether they are all in the same book or separate, the end result is the same. When Muslims search for answers they search the Quran and hadith, so you see, it is 'mixed up' as you believe the Bible is. Where it comes from is irrelevant if it is all part of the religion.
Oh brother, here we go again.
Yes rulings are derived from Quran and ahadith. But the two sources are not upto par in a sense. The difference is whatever is in the Quran is the verbatim words of God revealed in Arabic to the Prophet SAW through revelation. Hadith are not like that though some might be close such as Qudsi hadith.
The point about the Bible is that it is not the verbatim word of God as we believe however it is presented so to others. The Bible in many places does not even conform to itself whereas you can say the for Islam that the hadith does not always conform to the Quran but I would like to see where you can show me that the Quran contradicts itself. However this would be out of topic. Feel free to open a thread and I'll be there.
We do not doubt the authenticity of the Quran however the authenticity of the hadith has been criticized many times. You cannot extract the authentic information from the Bible because you no longer have the original and it is mixed up with other man-made traditions. This mixture renders it doubtful. If muslims ever ended up scrapping all the ahadith we would still have authentic information in the form of Quran, which would cover the very fundamentals needed to be a muslim in the eyes of Allah SWT.
Since in the Bible you can no longer distinguish what is authentic and what is not, you have a real dilemma scrapping anything from it.
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
Yes shame on the people who do this in the name of religion, shame on those who were watching (incluing the security forces). Gutless bas....rds.
*I refuse to accept that any religion of GOD wold permit this. *
Agreed shame on them.
And God only accepts one religion, its up to you to figure out which one it is.
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
Oh brother, here we go again.
Yes rulings are derived from Quran and ahadith. But the two sources are not upto par in a sense. The difference is whatever is in the Quran is the verbatim words of God revealed in Arabic to the Prophet SAW through revelation. Hadith are not like that though some might be close such as Qudsi hadith.
The point about the Bible is that it is not the verbatim word of God as we believe however it is presented so to others. The Bible in many places does not even conform to itself whereas you can say the for Islam that the hadith does not always conform to the Quran but I would like to see where you can show me that the Quran contradicts itself. However this would be out of topic. Feel free to open a thread and I'll be there.
We do not doubt the authenticity of the Quran however the authenticity of the hadith has been criticized many times. You cannot extract the authentic information from the Bible because you no longer have the original and it is mixed up with other man-made traditions. This mixture renders it doubtful. If muslims ever ended up scrapping all the ahadith we would still have authentic information in the form of Quran, which would cover the very fundamentals needed to be a muslim in the eyes of Allah SWT.
Since in the Bible you can no longer distinguish what is authentic and what is not, you have a real dilemma scrapping anything from it.
Ok, you make the distinction that Islam supposedly has the only 'authentic' source. But my point is, if you mix up hadith (and many hadith are accepted universally as PART OF ISLAM), then the way it is practiced is also left up to possible man-made traditions.
I get the part where you believe the Quran is infallible. But if you follow hadith as an integral part of your religion, you are possilbly following things that are not part of God's messge, just as you accuse Christians. If you followed only the Quran (the very fundamentals needed to be a Muslim) you could distinguish yourselves from other religions since your belief is it is the only true word of God. But as you say, this mixture renders it doubtful.
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
Br. Where is the verse?
No conflict, Akhi, Quran says flog them and the hadith says stone them and then you say you do not see a difference unless flogging means to stone or stoning means to flog.
As I have mentioned that the reading of the verse was abrogated but its ruling/hukam still remains. Allah made them forget this ayat because its reading was abrogated.
See Quran is talking about flogging the unmarried, and ahadees are for married people. This is how Prophet s.a.w acted on this ayat, and Sahabas and all the scholars.
In Sahih Bukhari, it is narrated from Jaabir ibn Abdullah [radhiallaahu anhu] that, ‘A man from the tribe of Banu Aslam came to Nabi [sallallaahu alayhi wasallam] and informed him that he had committed illegal sexual intercourse and he bore witness four times against himself. Nabi [sallallaahu alayhi wasallam] ordered him to be stoned to death as he was married.’ (Sahih Bukhari Hadith6814)
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
[quote]
We do not doubt the authenticity of the Quran however the authenticity of the hadith has been criticized many times. You cannot extract the authentic information from the Bible because you no longer have the original and it is mixed up with other man-made traditions. This mixture renders it doubtful. If muslims ever ended up scrapping all the ahadith we would still have authentic information in the form of Quran, which would cover the very fundamentals needed to be a muslim in the eyes of Allah SWT.
[/quote]
A (tawatur) Mass-transmitted hadith cannot "corrupt" when the very definition of Mass-Transmission precludes fabrication or weakness, but rather denotes certainty. Similarly, to deny rajm is to imply that the Prophet s.a.w. Sahabas, the vast majority, rather all the Ulema, were mistaken regarding the given issue of Rajm and that only recently we realised that they were wrong.
Also hadith can supercede an ayah if the hadith in question is mutawatir.
Also the Qur'an in not the only form of revelation, the inspiration the Prophet s.a.w received was not always Qur'anic Ayat.
This Rajm opposement is a modern phenomenon aimed at trying to make Islam "look-good" to the West and non-Muslims, yet people fail to realize that the good is that what the Lawmaker establishes as good and vice versa.
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
Even when the Quran tells you the exact opposite? Because then you're putting a sahabah over God's word.
Do you approve of such wrongdoings?
So that wold imply Prophet s.a.w and Sahabas acted against the Quran and now after 1400 years, just by reading few articles online and tranlations of the Quran, we have found out they were mistaken.
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
Question for people who put doubts about the authority of Ahdees.
The main argument of the people who do not believe in hadith is that it was collected 200 years after the prophet. I will have to say that people who make claims like this their knowledge is shallow. Before Imam Bukhari’s sahih there were many books, the musnad of Imam Ahmad, Abu Dawud Tayalisi, Musannaf Abdur Razzaq, Ibn Abi Shayba, before them the Muwtta of Imam Malik, before that the Musnad of Zuhri (edited by Dr Mustafa Azami), before that the Sahifa of Hamama ibn Munabbih (edited by Dr. Hamidullah rahimahullah), Hammam b. Munabbih was the student of Sayyiduna Abu Huraira (RA), The Sahifa Sadiqa of the sahabi Sayyiduna Abdullah Ibn Amr ibn As (RA), these books are all available and the last two date back to the time of the Sahaba.
Using your argument that hadith should not be believed on the basis that it was collected centuries after the Prophet then I will ask, Do you know the location where the Quran was revealed? Do you know who Aisha was? Do you know what the name of the Prophet’s father was? Do you know who Abu Bakr is, how many wives the Prophet had, where he lived, how he lived, the names of the kuffars of makka and madina other than the ones mentioned in the Quran, if you do, then how do you know this? The first book of sira was written by ibn Ishaq who lived in the 2nd century and was a contemporary of Imam Malik, the first great historian was Imam Tabari who lived in the 4th century. Why does your methodology change when it comes to Hadith?
Also the Qu'ran was transmitted not through being written down, but by being memorised orally initially. Same with hadith - the teacher would teach the student by mouth until the student could recite verbatim. This is why we have so many hafiz - oral memorisation is one of the foundations of our scholarship.
Every so often someone would write down more reliable hadith in a book for those with less memorising capacity - the major imams memorised hundreds of thousands of hadith complete with chains and the biographies of every individual in that chain, just as they memorised the Qu'ran. You will seldom see a hafiz make an error in their recitation.
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
US Resident, i am not a exactly student of any institute rather an individual trying to pick up things best to my understanding. So here is what i am thinking reading yours and khanabax interaction.
You are specifically asking for an ayat which talks about rajm. There is one about flogging for sure. Now we agree that flogging is an islamic hud. But nowhere accepting this ayat means that rajm is not a hud for married people. Since flogging is used for fornicators. Then the hadith which is mutwatir or if u please as consistent as Quranic verses say that rajm is a hudd. Makes me think. Besides what is the scholars take on it? They are best equipped to deal with questions like this, to my understanding rajm is declared islamic hudd under all muslim doctrines, including four imams. So i dont deem myself educated enough to contradict with them without any solid reason just because there not an ayat stating about rajm. As i said to someone earlier, Quran e pak is a book of guidance not of shariah law. We have to look at sunnat and sahabis as examples.
PCG i dont think the hadith and ayat are exactly contradictory. What i wrote above is my take on the topic.
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
^
That's pretty much how it is explained; hadith can elaborate and attenuate Quranic injunctions to greater levels of specificity.