Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
What does it have to do with race? :D
May be all the ismailis ahmadies etc are black and all wahabis or whatever she's talking about are white.:D
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
Anybody who supports the idea of stoning someone to death is not only a sick muslim but also a sick human being..........regardless of what is written in Quran or HAdith or whatever..........Being a Hindu, if I was one of the crowd witnessing some one kicking a girl at her groin area or for that matter anywhere, I would have ****ed, that A-hole then and there. I would have least cared what would have happened to me after that but atleast I would been able to see myself with complete respect if the mob would have left me alive (which I doubt)
Amazed...my brother amazed .....
and where were you when on the streets of naroda ..baroda...ahmedabad...gandhi nagar etc etc....
where were you when on the orders butcher of gujrat...9 9 years old girls were brought totally naked into mob of hundreds ...10 15 people ballat kar them ...in front of hundreds...they were shouting...but nobody came to thier help...and then mob put oil on them and burnt them alive....
not a single voice from hindus...where were you then....
what was the sin of these poor innocent 9 9 years oldd girls....there delecate body parts were teared in the mob...
i feel shame on calling these beasts as humans....!!!!!!
you are sick of stoning the adulter....and not sick of those who ballat kaar and burnt alive the innocents little girls ....and they were shouting and crying for help.....
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
islam never ever is fond of
*stooning
*cutting hands
*lashing
etc etc...
prophet(pbuh) at the most...at the most ...used to prevent sinners from punishment....
once a person came and said that implement hadd(punishment) on me...for i have done a sin...prophet(pbuh) not asked him whiuch sin...and said to him...wait ...then a time of prayer came and he performed namaz with prophet(pbuh)...after namaz ..prophet(pbuh) said to him..now go...your sin has removed....
point is...islam never says that create fear ijn the society...by stoning etc....
whenevr adultere came to prophet(pbuh)....he used to turn his face 3 times and used to say that...go and ask forgiveness from allah for your sin for He is merciful...
but if persists...4 times..then prophet(pbuh) used to give him /her punishment....
otherwise ..prophet(pbuh) himself was so kind hearted ...he avoided at the most...
but but...
if the disese affecting the society openly..in brothel form...etc...then prophet(pbuh) took strich action...as its now not individual...but whole siociety...that would be affected....
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
Amazed...my brother amazed .....
and where were you when on the streets of naroda ..baroda...ahmedabad...gandhi nagar etc etc....
where were you when on the orders butcher of gujrat...9 9 years old girls were brought totally naked into mob of hundreds ...10 15 people ballat kar them ...in front of hundreds...they were shouting...but nobody came to thier help...and then mob put oil on them and burnt them alive....
not a single voice from hindus...where were you then....
what was the sin of these poor innocent 9 9 years oldd girls....there delecate body parts were teared in the mob...
i feel shame on calling these beasts as humans....!!!!!!
you are sick of stoning the adulter....and not sick of those who ballat kaar and burnt alive the innocents little girls ....and they were shouting and crying for help.....
For your information, I was not there at that time...........and even if I was there, I would have done anything to stop it. You just don't get it, do you ? ...........it's not about religion, its about human values. One human killing another human brutally just because some its written in some 1000 year old book which does not make any sense today. AGAIN, I AM NOT TRYING TO MAKE FUN ON ANY PARTICULAR HOLY BOOK. There are few holy books in other religion also which does not make sense today(Even books in Hinduism). All I want to say is that religions should evovle with time so should it's teachings. THE BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN YOU AND ME IS I AM NOT BRAGGING about whatever happened in Gujrat and I totally condemn it. I am not stating any Hindu religious text to support that fact nor I am proud of the fact that it happened in my country....................on the other hand you guys are justifying the incident with some religious text from 1000 years ago. You should change your online name from dawa-i-dil to ZAHER-I-DIL or pather-maarey-dil, if you don't support the idea of young ppl falling in love.....thanks to your 1000 year old book which has diseased your mind.........................EVOLVE PPL........please EVOVLE AND CHANGE WITH THE TIMES FOR HUMANITY !!
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
HERE WE GO AGAIN…NOW IS 3 a magic number or what Is it man made or allah made or dawa-i-dil made…CRAZY…EVOLVE PPL, you have to EVOLVE or you will soon find yourselves living in the dark ages again.(if that’s what you want, please go ahead) …
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
Not only was this girl stoned and killed but they also outraged her modesty, which they absolutely didn't have to. And the fact that they did, speaks for their deranged minds. I can't believe that people here, even after watching the gruesome scenes from the video, are trying to fathom whether it was justified or not.
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
All talks of stoning for adultery are OT guys, why are you even discussing it? This girl was neither an adulteress, nor was she "punished" for any crime even within her own society. She made people angry, they brutalized her to the point of death...it's that simple.
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
Not only was this girl stoned and killed but they also outraged her modesty, which they absolutely didn't have to. And the fact that they did, speaks for their deranged minds. I can't believe that people here, even after watching the gruesome scenes from the video, are trying to fathom whether it was justified or not.
FINALLY, SOMEBODY WHO THINKS LIKE ME.....I seriously started having doubts in mind that I was one of a kind.
Thanks Shoor, you have given me new hopes, Not everyone in this post thinks like brainwashed dawa-i-dil and people still consider human values before Islamic values.
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
All talks of stoning for adultery are OT guys, why are you even discussing it? This girl was neither an adulteress, nor was she "punished" for any crime even within her own society. She made people angry, they brutalized her to the point of death...it's that simple.
I am not too sure abt that picoico, because if an angry mob had to kill a someone.........Why in the world would they use stones to kill a girl ? They did not need any weapons to kill a girl even if they needed why stones ?
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
Granted you have a valid point but it did not answer what I asked, isn’t the Quran supposed to supercede the ahadith and all historical accounts.
Thats my dilemma now, its given in crystal clear terms in the Quran yet we are not practicing it. Even the Surah is Madani, which means it was when the muslims had their own state, so its more of a law. What I would want to see is whether the verse was revealed after the incidents of stoning mentioned in the ahadith. None of the scholars has presented any such evidence. There is no time relation between the Quranic verse and the hadith, which mandates stoning.
I am not denying the ahadith but something is not right then. We all know ahadith do not supercede the Quran. If the historical accounts say that the Sahaba practiced Rajm then where is the explanation why, were the Sahaba blind to the Quran I don’t think so.
The Arabic word used in the Quranic ayat i.e. Zani is used for both married and unmarried people, so there is no exception either as many of us claimed before or are claiming now that the ayat only applies to unmarried people. Even the translations mention both adultery and fornication, which covers both cases of married and unmarried people. In some translations it mentions only adultery, which would make it specific to married people only and that still runs counter to the explanation that it applies to unmarried people only.
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
That would imply that Prophet s.a.w, Khulfa-e-Rashideen, and all the Sahabas acted against the Quran, and they couldnt understand an ayat of the Quran and after 1400 years have understood the ayat in its context? There are so many Saheeh ahadees of Prophet s.a.w, and many incidents where Prophet s.a.w inflicted rajam, so did Khulfa e Rashideen and their actions are enough for us, since we cant even think they acted contrary to the Quran. This is also the view of all the early scholars, and of the 4 Imams.
Bhai can you prove to me from the Quranic ayat that it is Rajm and not flogging. The Quranic ayat makes no distinction between married and unmarried people. That is my point in case you didn't understand, why are the Quranic ayat and hadith in conflict? And if they are, which one will you follow?
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
Bhai can you prove to me from the Quranic ayat that it is Rajm and not flogging. The Quranic ayat makes no distinction between married and unmarried people. That is my point in case you didn't understand, why are the Quranic ayat and hadith in conflict? And if they are, which one will you follow?
But Prophet s.a.w and Sahabas did make a distincton. Also did you read the Hadees of Hazrat Umer r..a where he said ayat of Rajm was revealed but later on ayat was abrogated but the ruling remained.
The Ahaadith substantiating *Rajm *are of the *Mutawaatar *class which is the highest category of Hadith. This category of Hadith gives rise to the consequence of *Qatiyat *(Absolute Certitude, without a doubt) in the same way as the Qur'aan.
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
I am not too sure abt that picoico, because if an angry mob had to kill a someone.........Why in the world would they use stones to kill a girl ? They did not need any weapons to kill a girl even if they needed why stones ?
Hmm..I read concrete blocks, so I presumed they were just using random debris...I mean, the kciking, beating and humiliation made this seem a bit more ad-hoc and rage driven...
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
But Prophet s.a.w and Sahabas did make a distincton. Also did you read the Hadees of Hazrat Umer r..a where he said ayat of Rajm was revealed but later on ayat was abrogated but the ruling remained.
It's not that simple...that Hadith poses serious theological problems for the claims of the perseveration of the Quran, in which the Quran guarantees itself as being immutable.
It's best to leave that out of it, unless you want to reconcile that glaring contradiction, which the Quran wins btw...
[quote]
The Ahaadith substantiating *Rajm *are of the *Mutawaatar *class which is the highest category of Hadith. This category of Hadith gives rise to the consequence of *Qatiyat *(Absolute Certitude, without a doubt) in the same way as the Qur'aan.
[/quote]
Don't go there...the hadith classfiications are man made.
Leave the Quran out of this.
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
But Prophet s.a.w and Sahabas did make a distincton. Also did you read the Hadees of Hazrat Umer r..a where he said ayat of Rajm was revealed but later on ayat was abrogated but the ruling remained.
The Ahaadith substantiating *Rajm *are of the *Mutawaatar *class which is the highest category of Hadith. This category of Hadith gives rise to the consequence of *Qatiyat *(Absolute Certitude, without a doubt) in the same way as the Qur'aan.
Please give reference to the hadith and I will read it. And abrogated ayat in the Quran do not disappear. Where is that abrogated ayat? I can't understand why an ayat would be abrogated by still be in effect, thats not what abrogation is.
Your explanation does not solve my dilemma. Mutawaatar ahadith still do not supecede the Quran.
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
Please give reference to the hadith and I will read it. And abrogated ayat in the Quran do not disappear. Where is that abrogated ayat? I can't understand why an ayat would be abrogated by still be in effect, thats not what abrogation is.
Your explanation does not solve my dilemma. Mutawaatar ahadith still do not supecede the Quran.
Yes, Mutawatir Ahadees are on the same level as Quran.
Hadhrat Umar Ibn Khattaab (radhiyallahu anhu) said: *“Verily, Allah Ta'ala sent Muhammad (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) with the Haqq (Truth), and He revealed the K i taab (Qur'aan) to him. Among the (aayaat) which Allah had revealed to him was the aayat of Rajm. I recited it, u nderstood it and memorized it. Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) executed Rajm, and we (the Sahaabah) after him executed Rajm. I fear that due to the long dur ation of time on people they may say: ‘We do not find Rajm in the Kitaab of Allah.' Thus, they will go astray by *
*abandoning an injunction which Allah Ta'ala had revealed (Know) that Rajm is incumbent on the one who commits zina when he or she is (of the quality of) Ihsaan (i.e. married), when evid ence has been established or there is pregnancy or confession.” (Bukhaari 82, 817and Muslim) *
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
Umar said, "I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, "We do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book," and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed. Lo! I confirm that the penalty of Rajam be inflicted on him who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if he is already married and the crime is proved by witnesses or pregnancy or confession." Sufyan added, "I have memorized this narration in this way." 'Umar added, "Surely Allah's Apostle carried out the penalty of Rajam, and so did we after him." Bukhari
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
It's not that simple...that Hadith poses serious theological problems for the claims of the perseveration of the Quran, in which the Quran guarantees itself as being immutable.
It's best to leave that out of it, unless you want to reconcile that glaring contradiction, which the Quran wins btw... .
This is one type of naskh, where the ayah is made naskh but the ruling does not get cancelled.
There are three types of abrogated Qur'anic verses:
(1) Recitation-abrogated and ruling-abrogated
(2) Recitation-established and ruling-abrogated
(3) Recitation-abrogated and ruling-established
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
Yes, Mutawatir Ahadees are on the same level as Quran.
Hadhrat Umar Ibn Khattaab (radhiyallahu anhu) said: *“Verily, Allah Ta'ala sent Muhammad (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) with the Haqq (Truth), and He revealed the K i taab (Qur'aan) to him. Among the (aayaat) which Allah had revealed to him was the aayat of Rajm. I recited it, u nderstood it and memorized it. Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) executed Rajm, and we (the Sahaabah) after him executed Rajm. I fear that due to the long dur ation of time on people they may say: ‘We do not find Rajm in the Kitaab of Allah.' Thus, they will go astray by * *abandoning an injunction which Allah Ta'ala had revealed (Know) that Rajm is incumbent on the one who commits zina when he or she is (of the quality of) Ihsaan (i.e. married), when evid ence has been established or there is pregnancy or confession.” (Bukhaari 82, 817and Muslim) *
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: Umar said, "I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, "We do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book," and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed. Lo! I confirm that the penalty of Rajam be inflicted on him who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if he is already married and the crime is proved by witnesses or pregnancy or confession." Sufyan added, "I have memorized this narration in this way." 'Umar added, "Surely Allah's Apostle carried out the penalty of Rajam, and so did we after him." Bukhari
JAK for the ahadith.
Br. the dilemma I have is that a verse of the Quran is in conflict with what is stated in the ahadith not that it is absent. If it was absent I would be following the ahadith.
The first hadith you have quoted says that it was revealed and Umar RAQ recited it, understood it and memorized it but where is it then. Where did he recite it from, obviously I would take this to mean the Quran. Then where is the verse of stoning in the Quran.
The hadith contradicts itself. Let me point out one more thing, the first hadith mentions pregnancy and it is mentioning married people i.e. quality Ihsaan, preganancy could not have been a criteria for determining adultery for married people 1400 yearts ago. It could be for unmarried women but not for married women. So pregnancy would be a criteria for unmarried women and in that case this hadith would apply to unmarried women as well i.e. Rajm. Then this contradicts those who say the Quranic ayat of flogging only applies to unmarried people.
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
This is one type of naskh, where the ayah is made naskh but the ruling does not get cancelled.
There are three types of abrogated Qur'anic verses: (1) Recitation-abrogated and ruling-abrogated (2) Recitation-established and ruling-abrogated (3) Recitation-abrogated and ruling-established
I know (comprehensive article on sunnipath about this very issue...), but that doesn't address the core issue of contradiction and completeness. The question is, is there any other example of a verse not contained within the Quran that abrogates another? Is there even agreeemnt on what verses have been abrogated?
Re: The concept of being Stoned to Death
That would imply that Prophet s.a.w, Khulfa-e-Rashideen, and all the Sahabas acted against the Quran, and they couldnt understand an ayat of the Quran and after 1400 years have understood the ayat in its context? There are so many Saheeh ahadees of Prophet s.a.w, and many incidents where Prophet s.a.w inflicted rajam, so did Khulfa e Rashideen and their actions are enough for us, since we cant even think they acted contrary to the Quran. This is also the view of all the early scholars, and of the 4 Imams.
You should ask yourself, WHEN Quran-e paak was written down as complite law bearing set of holy book?
And when did the various collections of Hadice come to end?
Then put the pieces together and try to figure it out.
And for your totally lack of insight, quoting:
What does it have to do with race?
Did you even bother to read properly, or was the urge of just posting getting the better of you?
Quran is and will always be the PRIME guideline...... And when there are specific "verdicts" taken, from Allahjee himself, then yes, Sahabas can be wrong, they are only BASHAR, not Rasuulallah (pbuh) God forbid......
The problem with Hadice lovers, they refute even such an exact example as in this thread! And you have the audacity to condemn "modern muslims", on something you are so blinded at? How ironic can it get, honestly?