The Blasphemy law

Interesting article on the Blasphemy law and how women are targetted in Pakistan. Excerpts below:

Rafay Alam

No other law in Pakistan, other than the law relating to blasphemy, has led to such heated debate and controversy than the law relating to the evidence of women. The source of the controversy stems from the provisions of the Qanun-e-Shahadat Order, 1984 (which is an “Islamized” version of the old Evidence Act, 1872), the provisions of which ex facie discriminate against women.

Article 17(1) of the QSO sets out that the “competence of a person to testify, and the number of witnesses required in any case shall be determined in accordance with the injunctions of Islam as laid down in the Holy Quran and Sunnah.” This is fairly harmless stuff, if not a noble attempt to put effect to the divine injunctions of Surah Baqara. However, the real controversy actually lies in the provisions Article 17(2) of the QSO, which attempts to effect, specifically, the injunctions laid down in Verse 2:282 of the Holy Quran.

The controversial Article stipulates that where an agreement between parties pertaining to “financial or future obligations” is reduced to writing, it must be attested “by two men, or one man and two women, so that one may remind the other . . .” Article 79(2) of the QSO further stipulates that such a document cannot be used as evidence unless “two attesting witness at least have been called for the purpose of proving its execution . . .”

In practical terms, the provisions of the QSO dictate that the mutually agreed upon provisions of any written agreement which contemplates some financial or future obligations can be rendered legally unenforceable unless the two male witnesses (or one male and two female witnesses) to the agreement can swear to a court of law that they saw the parties thereto actually sign it. The controversy manifests itself in litigation, as every time a document is witnessed by one man and two women, it cannot be examined by a court of law unless and until the man and the two women give seperate statements to the effect that they saw the execution of the document. The controversial implication of such a requirement is that the State has decreed that the word of one woman is only half as believable as that of a man.

Much of the criticism of this law has been generated by various women’s and human rights groups, and has focused on the sexual discrimination it envisages. Indeed, some other jurisdictions implicitly give more credence to the evidence of a woman, no doubt effecting the well-known belief that women are always right. In fact, I have been able to locate an archaic utterance (one of many, I may add) of William St Julien Arabin, a 19th century judge of the Old Bailey in London. During the trial reported as R. Collinson (1834), he is known to have gone as far as to say “One woman is worth twenty men as a witness any day.”

However, there are some ostensible justifications for such a law. It could be that the requirements of Art. 17(2) of the QSO protect the concept of purdah. While there is nothing remarkable for two male witnesses to confer with one another before swearing to a court of law that the document before the court is the one executed by the litigating parties, the concept of mehram prohibits men from conferring with women. The QSO can therefore be said to allow a woman to give evidence of the execution of a agreement in writing so long as she has another women with whom she can confer with as to the veracity of the document in question. One the other hand, some argue that such a law is necessary a woman may not have the ability to comprehend complicated financial transactions, and may need the assistance of another female witness to remind herself of the execution of the agreement. Such a view was put forward by Mr. Justice (Retired) Mamoon Kazi in an article published in the DAWN (26 January 2001). According to Mr. Justice Kazi, Verse 2:282, as affected by Art. 17(2) of the QSO, “is meant for women who mainly remain busy with their household chores and [sic] business transactions are generally alien to them.” Clearly, both such ostensible justifications of the law fail to appreciate that men and women can and should stand shoulder to shoulder in the business world.

However, the voices of various women’s and human rights are groups not alone. In the same article Mr. Justice Kazi stated that the law “fails to serve any useful purpose” and recommended its removal from our statute books. Mr. Justice Kazi’s criticism stemmed from his belief that the requirements of Art. 17 of the QSO “far exceeded the injunctions contained in Verse 2:282” which he said “made no reference to evidence.” Indeed, the Divine Revelation appears to lay emphasis on the necessity of having agreements formally documented in order to prevent any disputes as to the exact nature of each party’s rights and obligations arising in the future.

Whilst most of the criticism of the law relating to women’s evidence stems from the fact that it is ex facie sexually discriminatory (and as such runs foul of the Constitutionally protected right to equality and freedom from discrimination on the basis of sex alone), there has been little debate on the mentality of a state which purports, through this law, to bring about an “Islamization” of the country.

link

If you read some of the resposes given by some of the Guppies on this forum, you can understand the kind of mentality thats viralent in Pakistan.
Now imagine a country of 140 million such people with that same mentality:)
Pak Zindabad

Re: The Blasphemy law

You forget:
On matters of zina a woman must PROVIDE FOUR witnesses (adult, muslim and male) to prove that she was not the initiator of the sexual misconduct or adultery.

Failure to provide the four witnesses means the woman is a liar; and the man is set free.

The woman is then sent to a women’s holding house (jail) where she will await, indifinitely, her fate.
Why?
Because, no Judge in Pak will sentence her to be STONED.
and,
If she is RELEASED then she would be killed by her own family members for DISHONOUR; for bringing shame to the family’s name.

Re: Re: The Blasphemy law

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by hafeez123: *
You forget:
On matters of zina **a woman must PROVIDE FOUR witnesses (adult, muslim and male) to prove that she was not the initiator of the sexual misconduct or adultery.
*
....
[/QUOTE]

When would you stop lying about a religion you don't know about?

Re: Re: The Blasphemy law

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by hafeez123: *

You forget:
On matters of zina a woman must PROVIDE FOUR witnesses (adult, muslim and male) to prove that she was not the initiator of the sexual misconduct or adultery.

Failure to provide the four witnesses means the woman is a liar; and the man is set free.

The woman is then sent to a women's holding house (jail) where she will await, indifinitely, her fate.
Why?
Because, no Judge in Pak will sentence her to be STONED.
and,
If she is RELEASED then she would be killed by her own family members for DISHONOUR; for bringing shame to the family's name.
[/QUOTE]

There are quite a few muslimas here. Do they have any comments on what I 've written here. TRUE or FALSE?

OR,

maybe - they, like, Changez think that to write the truth is to DEMEAN islam?

Re: Re: Re: The Blasphemy law

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by hafeez123: *

There are quite a few muslimas here. Do they have any comments on what I 've written here. TRUE or FALSE?

OR,

maybe - they, like, Changez think that to write the truth is to DEMEAN islam?
[/QUOTE]

Even in this medium where you are anonymous, you DARE not be heard; forget about being seen. But- you eagerly raise & wave the flag of the very dogma that chokes you.

Recently, in Iraq a female judge was to be appointed to the supreme court and amongst her most vociferous opponents to block the appointment were females and famales judges who clamoured:
"This is an attempt to DEMEAN Islam."

Hafeez,

What exactly are you trying to prove? That Islam is an outdated religion? That we Muslim females are repressed? Man i am so sick and tired of hearing how repressed, oppressed, dominated, and beaten-up Muslim females are :rolleyes: Give us a break.

I take your response to mean:
Any TRUTH would DEMEAN Islam

I really do not have to prove anything. As far as what islam stands for can be PROVED by studying the multitudes of Islamic countries that either rule by SHARIA or combination of sharia & democracy.

I am impressed by your ZEAL to rise to defend the very laws that would choke you but, hey - you live in the west, protected by the kafir’s democratic laws; so, who cares? To write what you do gives you some purpose; a high!

DO TAKE NOTE:
According to you and the Islamic law that you cited makes prophet Muhammed(saw) WRONG in stoning all those women to Death for adultery when he should have merely lashed 80 times. In your rush to defend you forget to consider this very important matter !

The Islamic law that you quote does not apply for married women. For married women it is stoning to death if they cannot provide the four witness. Maybe, next time you are in Pak, make an attempt to go talk to one of those zina victim that has been incarcerated for decades. And, make sure you take your burqa or hijab with you.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by hafeez123: *

I take your response to mean:
Any TRUTH would DEMEAN Islam

........or combination of sharia & democracy.

[/QUOTE]

What do you mean Sharia and democracy? Shariah law guarantees the greatest democracy. In Muslim countries either the laws being implemented today are either islamic or non-islamic.

I believe that the Sharia law is perfect and the only way for Muslims.

Hafeez, Thank you for your reply.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by hafeez123: *
I take your response to mean: **Any TRUTH would DEMEAN Islam
*
[/quote]

Firstly, Please do not make these sweeping types of statements. Nowhere in Islam has it ever accepted closing one's eyes to the 'truth'. Infact, Islam urges humanity to seek knowledge. Nowhere does it state or even imply, anywhere either in the Quran or in the Hadiths, that seeking truth would lead to a reduction in one's faith. Frankly speaking, that's ridiculous because i have always found the opposite occurs with me - if you approach the Quran with an open mind and with an honest spirit of engagement, then it does not fail to broaden one's mind.

[quote]
I really do not have to prove anything.
[/quote]

:) Really? How about proving your initial assertion that Muslim females are subjugated by Islam?

One thing that i have absolutely no patience for is when people presume to speak on behalf of Muslim females. Thank you very much, we have our own minds and our own tongues and we can speak for ourselves. i don't need you, or any Joe Tom and Harry to tell me what Islam is and is not.

[quote]
As far as what islam stands for can be PROVED by studying the multitudes of Islamic countries that either rule by SHARIA or combination of sharia & democracy.
[/quote]

In my humblest opinion, this is the crux of the errors that lie in your argument. You have shifted the discourse away from religion, towards culture. We can discuss women's situation in Muslim countries under the particular cultures that they live in. Yes, those are against Islam. But if you wish to discuss women's status under Islam, then that is an entirely separate issue.

[quote]
....but, hey - you live in the west, protected by the kafir's democratic laws; so, who cares? To write what you do gives you some purpose; a high!
[/quote]

My dear friend, please do not make assumptions about me that writing the above gives me a "high".

[quote]
*Maybe, next time you are in Pak, make an attempt to go talk to one of those zina victim that has been incarcerated for decades. And, make sure you take your burqa or hijab with you.
[/QUOTE]
*

I am sorry - and your point, precisely, is what? I suggest you give me quotes from the Quran where a woman's status is considered inferior - or, if this is easier for yourself, please do provide me with concrete examples from the Hadiths where Prophet Muhammad (may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) mistreated any of his wives.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Nadia_H: *
**Hafeez
*, Thank you for your reply.

Firstly, Please do not make these sweeping types of statements. Nowhere in Islam has it ever accepted closing one's eyes to the 'truth'. Infact, Islam urges humanity to seek knowledge. Nowhere does it state or even imply, anywhere either in the Quran or in the Hadiths, that seeking truth would lead to a reduction in one's faith. Frankly speaking, that's ridiculous because i have always found the opposite occurs with me - if you approach the Quran with an open mind and with an honest spirit of engagement, then it does not fail to broaden one's mind.

:) Really? How about proving your initial assertion that Muslim females are subjugated by Islam?

One thing that i have absolutely no patience for is when people presume to speak on behalf of Muslim females. Thank you very much, we have our own minds and our own tongues and we can speak for ourselves. i don't need you, or any Joe Tom and Harry to tell me what Islam is and is not.

In my humblest opinion, this is the crux of the errors that lie in your argument. You have shifted the discourse away from religion, towards culture. We can discuss women's situation in Muslim countries under the particular cultures that they live in. Yes, those are against Islam. But if you wish to discuss women's status under Islam, then that is an entirely separate issue.

My dear friend, please do not make assumptions about me that writing the above gives me a "high".

**
I am sorry - and your point, precisely, is what? I suggest you give me quotes from the Quran where a woman's status is considered inferior - or, if this is easier for yourself, please do provide me with concrete examples from the Hadiths where Prophet Muhammad (may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) mistreated any of his wives.
[/QUOTE]

Dear Nadia_H,

If you are attempting to seek changes to status quo re: Islam & Women, then you are not going to achieve that by spreading & insisting upon FALSEHOODS or in Ahl as Sunnah the women are equal to man.

TRY THIS ON:
Is there a single Islamic country from the 60 - 70 odd that treats a woman as an Equal in the religious & worldly context? Give it a try.

The countries where muslim women have thrived are usually those that has democratic institutions and govern by secular laws with rights enshrined for its citizen. You can refer to Sadam's Iraq, Shah's Iran, Morroco, Malaysia, Turkey, Jordan and Pakistan.

All Islamic countries or regions within a country that has ruled by Sharia have repressed its women in accordance with religious interpretations i.e their sharia - based upon quran & sunnah.

Sure, you may choose to infer that this is because of culture or that they do not follow true islam and like Islamabad toot that:
"Sharia law guarantees the greatest democracy"

Whatever, just keep this in mind:
the world is not naive about Islam anymore.

You mention something about :
"Nowhere in Islam has it ever accepted closing one's eyes to the 'truth'. Infact, Islam urges humanity to seek knowledge"

Dear Nadia,

I speak from an Ahl as Sunnah perspective only and you must remember my pointing to you previously that "the Islam that you are describing" is not the ahl as sunnah variety.

In sunni Islam, one doesn't use their INTELECT in how they chose to follow Islam. In Ahl as Sunnah one is asked to do taqleed to one of the FOUR Sunni Imam/Mujthahids called the madhabs. The emphasis is on - Hear & Obey!

One is encouraged to seek & improve their knowledge of Islam and not of Kufr knowledge that will make their Imam weak and jeopardise their akhira'h.

NOTE There may be other fiqhs or tariqas that encourage the use of AQL/intellect in persuit of Islam. But, it is not Ahl as sunnah wal jammah.

Dear Hafeez, Thank you for your response.

As i suspected, sadly, you were unable to give me one ayat from the Quran that endorsed your assertion that Islam places women upon a degraded position. Neither was i reminded of any example from the collection of hadiths regarding the treatment of his wives by Prophet Muhammad (may Allah’s peace and blessings be upon him). Too bad.

If you wish to discuss Muslim women’s cultural status and treatments, then i suggest we make that explicitly stated in this thread. I am here to discuss Islam’s position on women, not Ahl as Sunnah, not Saudi Arabia’s, not Pakistan’s, nothing. Just Islam’s. Once we agree upon this, we can proceed with this discussion happily. :flower1:

Dear Nadia,

I did not invite you to this debate. You came in on your own and You are welcome to let your imagination run wild. But when you do, I’ll be there to point that out to you.

There have been lots of theads that have had SAHIH hadiths & ayas re: Status of women posted. Are you teling us that you are unawre of those?

Nobody is stopping you from posting WEAK hadiths to make your points or quote a few ayas from quran that are - in turn- nullified by more direct ayas on women’s status.

DO NOTE:
There is no such thing as you put it → Just Islam or Women’s status in Just Islam.

Islam is in its fiqhs & tariqas & masalaks. So, women in those fiqhs have differing status on many matters - based on different interpretations.

And Islam of the Ahl as sunnah masalaq treats women as inequal or ‘half of man’ in **both religious & worldly matters.**Those who claim otherwise - like you -are spreading falsehood.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by hafeez123: *
**There have been lots of theads that have had SAHIH hadiths & ayas re: Status of women posted.
*
[/quote]

Just post one ayat from the Quran - that's all i am asking. One ayat from one of these numerous (as you imply) threads.

[quote]
And Islam of the Ahl as sunnah masalaq treats women as inequal or 'half of man' in both religious & worldly matters.Those who claim otherwise - like you -are spreading falsehood.
[/QUOTE]

ahaaN. Why don't you prove to me that i am spreading falsehoods? Please point out to me where i am going wrong. i am not discussing the treatment of a wife by an average Muslim man, i am asking for Islam's position on Islam.

Sincerely speaking, i look forward to reading in your next reply a quote from the Quran to back up your assertion.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Nadia_H: *

Just post one ayat from the Quran - that's all i am asking. One ayat from one of these numerous (as you imply) threads.

ahaaN. Why don't you prove to me that i am spreading falsehoods? Please point out to me where i am going wrong. i am not discussing the treatment of a wife by an average Muslim man, i am asking for Islam's position on Islam.

Sincerely speaking, i look forward to reading in your next reply a quote from the Quran to back up your assertion.
[/QUOTE]

dear Nadia,

Looks to me you are not only "DEFICIENT in intelligence but DEFICIENT in Religion as well." (sahih bukhari)

What you are doing is creating Islam based on evolving interpretations and this version of Islam does exist & followed by a few tariqas but overwhelming Islam is stuck on interpretations made in the CULTURAL surroundings of 7th century saudi arabia and for all eternity.

For overwhelming Islam:
a woman is a toy with 10 awrahs
"like a field to be tilled as one sees fit"

What you write chokes & degrades those muslimas even more.

Mr. hafeez123:

Does the wrong interpretation of a message makes the message wrong or interpretation wrong? If a majority of the people wrongfuly interpret Quran wrong, it doesn't mean that message in Quran itself have become corrupted!

So in light of above argument, I should request you to use 'Majority of the Muslims means that' instead of using 'Islam means that'. Please stop blaming Islam for the wrongful interpretatio done by its followers.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by fatehahmad: *
Mr. hafeez123:

Does the wrong interpretation of a message makes the message wrong or interpretation wrong? If a majority of the people wrongfuly interpret Quran wrong, it doesn't mean that message in Quran itself have become corrupted!

So in light of above argument, I should request you to use 'Majority of the Muslims means that' instead of using 'Islam means that'. Please stop blaming Islam for the wrongful interpretatio done by its followers.
[/QUOTE]

dear fateh,

YES!

Islam is in its fiqhs, tariqas and masalaks. Do you agree?

Majority Fiqhs of Islam have teachings that subjugates women & minorities. Do you agree?

CONCLUSION: Majority Islam is corrupt and their teachings of Quran is corrupt!

Mr Hafeez123:

Instead of 'Majoriy Islam is corrupt', it would be better if you use 'Majority of the Muslims are corrupted'.

BTW, can you identify the Fiqahs and sects in Islam which according to you subjugate women and minorities? And what are the laws in those Fiqahs that you disapprove of?

I think generalizing everything would not bear any fruit!

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by fatehahmad: *
Mr Hafeez123:

Instead of 'Majoriy Islam is corrupt', it would be better if you use 'Majority of the Muslims are corrupted'.

BTW, can you identify the Fiqahs and sects in Islam which according to you subjugate women and minorities? And what are the laws in those Fiqahs that you disapprove of?

I think generalizing everything would not bear any fruit!
[/QUOTE]

dear fateh,

Its semantics. Majority muslims or majority islam or majoritarian Islam.
Thanx for agreeing to the gist of my post.

What fiqhs are corrupt - you ask?

Pls read my posts in this thread and you will have answer plus more.

Mr. Hafeez123:

In one of your previous post, you wrote

[QUOTE]
On matters of zina a woman must PROVIDE FOUR witnesses (adult, muslim and male) to prove that she was not the initiator of the sexual misconduct or adultery.
[/QUOTE]

Can you prove your above statement from Holy Quran and Hadith!