[QUOTE]
Originally posted by hafeez123: *
**For overwhelming Islam:
a woman is a toy with 10 awrahs
"like a field to be tilled as one sees fit"*
[/QUOTE]
ahaaN.
Now, please, an ayat from the Quran to endorse your assertion that women are given a degraded position in Islam. Alternatively, you can provide me an example from one of the Hadiths of the treatment the wives of Prophet Muhammad (may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him).
i await your reply with anticipation.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Nadia_H: *
ahaaN.
Now, please, an ayat from the Quran to endorse your assertion that women are given a degraded position in Islam. Alternatively, you can provide me an example from one of the Hadiths of the treatment the wives of Prophet Muhammad (may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him).
i await your reply with anticipation.
[/QUOTE]
Dear nadia,
The quote re:
-DEFICIENT in Religion & Intelligence
- Toy and 10 awrahs
are hadiths
while the quote:
"like a field to be tilled as one sees fit"
-is verse from quran
You can do a google search on those quotes.
Dear Nadia,
Pls note that there are verses in both quran & sunnah/hadiths that speaks of equality but when the scholars created the madhabs, they based what the woman s/b upon the verses that are repressive; maybe, that was in VOGUE at that time.
And, since the Sunni Madhab is not an evolving kind but RIGID, our dear muslimas are stuck with it - for all eternity. Except those muslimas that live in the kafir Democratic west or those that following an evolving interpretations of Islam.
All the best.
hafeez123, all you have written is hugely generalized statements after statements after statements; without any proof wotsoever. Basically, ur assertions seems to be coming from mere newspaper readings. Yammering this, yammering that.
Please, do bless us with a proof now. YOu have beat about the bush long enuff now. State an ayat from the holy quran abt women which u in ur 2+2=4 world take as degrading women. come on, dont be shy.
we will go over one ayat and discuss its teaching and its effects;in degrading women.
The context are: Ahl as sunnah:
al quran:
And those who launch
A charge against chaste women
And produce not four witnesses
(To support their allegations)-
Flog them with 80 stripes;
And reject their evidence
Ever after: for such men
Are wicked transgressors
(Surah Al Nur, 24:4)
But it shall avert the punishment (of stoning to death from her, if she bears witness four times by Allâh, that he (her husband) is telling a lie.(Surah Al Nur, 24:8)
For sunnah, pls refer to:
http://www.sunnah.org/fiqh/honor_killing.htm
Mr. Hafeez123:
You initialy wrote:
[QUOTE]
On matters of zina a woman must PROVIDE FOUR witnesses (adult, muslim and male) to prove that she was not the initiator of the sexual misconduct or adultery.
[/QUOTE]
And where did in the above verses, you quoted from Surah Al-nur, it states that women have present 4 adult witnesses to exonerate herself. She just have to beat witness to Allah that she didn't commit adultery.
Don't you see the contradictions in your own statements.
Dear Fateh,
I expected you to say:
Where in the quran does it say STONE the adulterers TO DEATH !
NOWHERE!
So, was the An-Hazur WRONG in enforcing the ritual of rajm ?
(Surah An Nisa, 4:15) And those of your women who commit illegal sexual intercourse, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them (i.e. women) to houses until death comes to them or Allâh ordains for them some (other) way.
**The Islamic Penal Law “Hadood Ordinance” repealed the provisions of the Pakistan Penal Code related to rape cases, in 1979. The Islamic Law of evidence applicable to cases of rape requires the evidence of four adult male Muslims, in order for the penalty of hadood to be imposed upon the accused. Being a half witness by law the raped woman can’t even testify against the crime committed against her. **
According to these laws, testimony of the victim requires strong corroboration for conviction by the court. On the other hand, where sexual intercourse is established but the absence of consent cannot be proved, the presumption that such intercourse occurred with the woman’s consent can place her at the risk of prosecution.
In both cases, adultery or rape, a woman is kept in jail pending the ruling of the court. 52% of women languishing in the jails of Pakistan are waiting for their fate in these cases. In the case of a woman marrying without the consent of her family, the marriage can be declared invalid and the couple would then be accused of the offence of zina (adultery).
Mr. Hafeez123:
You didn't answer my initial question and started a new topic. This is not a nice way of engaging into a discussion. Are you admitting that you were wrong in giving your initial statement about women bringing four witnesses in proving their innocence. I think we should settle this first and then go forward on other topics.
And whenever somebody asks you to prove something from Holy Quran, you bring the example of Sunni Fiqah, Shia Fiqah, Pakistan Penal code, Saudi Arab penal code etc. etc.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by fatehahmad: *
Mr. Hafeez123:
You didn't answer my initial question and started a new topic. This is not a nice way of engaging into a discussion. Are you admitting that you were wrong in giving your initial statement about women bringing four witnesses in proving their innocence. I think we should settle this first and then go forward on other topics.
And whenever somebody asks you to prove something from Holy Quran, you bring the example of Sunni Fiqah, Shia Fiqah, Pakistan Penal code, Saudi Arab penal code etc. etc.
[/QUOTE]
Dear Fateh,
I believe I have.
*The FOUR witness requirement is the law of the Hud on matters of zina. A zina charge brought in by a women cannot be prosecuted in Sharia Court unless she provides FOUR adult , male, muslim and SANE witnesses. *
If you disagree then why not just post the correct info as a rebuttal and for the record.
Interestingly you say this:
"And whenever somebody asks you to prove something from Holy Quran, .."
If you are lookng for proof of STONING from the quran then you won't find it. I am very clear on that in my posts.
The four witness requirement to prove innocence are from Surah An Nisa, 4:15 and Surah al Nur 24:4 and sunnah/ hadiths - all have been referenced above in my posts.
As to how it became part of Sunni fiqh is because the prophet did it and the rashidun caliphs did it and so did their successors down the time.
Having said that, let me ask you this again:
Was the An-Hazur WRONG in enforcing Rajm of Stoning for Adultery when the punishment is not prescribed in the quran?
Mr. hafeez123:
Surah Al-Nisa verse 15, Translation:
[QUOTE]
And such of your women who are guilty of any flagrant impropriety - call to witness four of you against them; and if they bear witness, then confine them to the houses until death overtakes them or Allah opens for them some other way.
[/QUOTE]
If you can read english well, you can understand from the above translation that in this verse Holy Quran is asking husbands to bring 4 witnesses if they think their women are guilty of adultery. It is no way asking women to bring 4 witnesses to prove their innocence.
Surah Noor verse 4, Translation:
[QUOTE]
And those who culminate chaste woman but bring not four witnesses - flog them with eighty stripes, and do not admit their evidence ever after, for it is they that are the transgression,
[/QUOTE]
Now you honestly tell me, where it is written that women have to bring 4 witnesses if they want to prove their innocence.
Women have only swear on the name of Allah for their innocence as mentioned in Surah-Nur:
[QUOTE]
But it shall avert the punishment from her if she bears witness four times in the name of Allah that he is of the liars;
[/QUOTE]
Now it is evident that she don't have to bring 4 male witnesses but just to bear witness 4 times on the name of Allah.
So what is your position on this matter now!
Mr. Hafeez123:
You wrote
[QUOTE]
Was the An-Hazur WRONG in enforcing Rajm of Stoning for Adultery when the punishment is not prescribed in the quran?
[/QUOTE]
I believe that Holy Prophet was never wrong in any religious decree!
First of all you have to understand one thing that until some thing was revealed to him by Allah in Holy Quran, He used to make decisions based on bible.
In bible, the punishment of an adultery was death by stoning and that was awarded during the time of the Holy Prophet until that verses in Holy Quran about the adultery was revealed. You would not find any historical evidence that Holy Prophet continued to prescribe the punishment even after this verse is revealed. And whoever among the Muslims says that punishment should remain to be stoning, I believe that he is wrong in his assumption.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by fatehahmad: *
Mr. hafeez123:
Surah Al-Nisa verse 15, Translation:
If you can read english well, you can understand from the above translation that in this verse Holy Quran is asking husbands to bring 4 witnesses if they think their women are guilty of adultery. It is no way asking women to bring 4 witnesses to prove their innocence.
Surah Noor verse 4, Translation:
Now you honestly tell me, where it is written that women have to bring 4 witnesses if they want to prove their innocence.
Women have only swear on the name of Allah for their innocence as mentioned in Surah-Nur:
Now it is evident that she don't have to bring 4 male witnesses but just to bear witness 4 times on the name of Allah.
So what is your position on this matter now!
[/QUOTE]
Dear Fateh,
The Fact is - the Prophet practised Stoning and had women STONED to death for adultery and this practise is followed - to this date. I am sure that there may have been times when the Judge accepted a woman's testimony upon the name of allah or as allah being her witness.
It is not only men who bring charges of zina against women. If there is a charge made by a women against a man then she has to povide the fOUR witnesses as well. If she cannot then the man is set free and the woman is charged with lying and may even herself be accused of inititaing adultery.
Tha fact again is: The Women Jail in Pakistan are overflowing with those charged with zina but on account of being unable to provide the four witnesses they have been indefinitely incarcerated. If they are set free then the fear is - their own family members would murder them for Dishonour -even if she swore her innocence upon allah. And, here you are playing with words.
Now for the third time let me ask you this again:
Was the An-Hazur WRONG in enforcing Rajm of Stoning for Adultery when the punishment is not prescribed in the quran?
Mr. Hafeez123:
No! Holy Prophet was not wrong in giving that punishment as their was not verdict from Holy Quran at the time. He used to follow bible in those matters and punishment of stoning was clearly mentioned in Bible. So he was not wrong.
But to do that in this day and time, it would be wrong to practice it as it is now clearly mentioned in Holy Quran.
Mr. Hafeez123 over here we are not talking about the real life facts. We are talking about the teachings of Holy Quran. I asked you to show me from the Holy Quran about the statements you made and you couldn't reply to that. Now you have again reverted back to what is happening in Pakistan and what is happening in Saudi Arabia etc. These countries are not point of our discussion. Our point of discussion is Holy Quran & hadith and we should stick to it.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by fatehahmad: *
Mr. Hafeez123:
No! Holy Prophet was not wrong in giving that punishment as their was not verdict from Holy Quran at the time. He used to follow bible in those matters and punishment of stoning was clearly mentioned in Bible. So he was not wrong.
But to do that in this day and time, it would be wrong to practice it as it is now clearly mentioned in Holy Quran.
Mr. Hafeez123 over here we are not talking about the real life facts. We are talking about the teachings of Holy Quran. I asked you to show me from the Holy Quran about the statements you made and you couldn't reply to that. Now you have again reverted back to what is happening in Pakistan and what is happening in Saudi Arabia etc. These countries are not point of our discussion. Our point of discussion is Holy Quran & hadith and we should stick to it.
[/QUOTE]
"The prophet was following a bible"
is your answer to whether the prophet was WRONG or RIGHT in following STONING for adultery.
So, what were the Rashidun Caliphs and their successors following- right down to islamic scholars in Saudia or Pakistan or Iran ?
Was it the BIBLE?
Show you what from the quran.
The detailed intricacies of how a sharia law of the sunni fiqh is developed. The quran is not the place for that.
What you are suggesting is a REFORM of majoritarian Islam. A sunni mullah would call you a MURTAD and I am sure you do not care because you are not a believing sunni either.
Good Luck.
Mr Hafeez123:
Do you agree that according to the teachings of Holy Quran, a woman doesn't have to bring 4 male witnesses to prove her innocence in case of adultery? Forget about laws in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by fatehahmad: *
Mr Hafeez123:
Do you agree that according to the teachings of Holy Quran, a woman doesn't have to bring 4 male witnesses to prove her innocence in case of adultery? Forget about laws in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia!
[/QUOTE]
Dear F,
There is more proof in the quran about FOUR witnesses than the actual punishment of Rajm or STONING.
But, for one who is on record of STATING that the prophet followed the bible can be allowed to make any pronouncements and still pretend he knows what he is talking about.
Mr. Hafeez123:
You still didn't answer my question.
What problem do you have with Holy Prophet following bible?
Please stop playing with words and stick to the topic!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by fatehahmad: *
Mr. Hafeez123:
You still didn't answer my question.
What problem do you have with Holy Prophet following bible?
Please stop playing with words and stick to the topic!
[/QUOTE]
Dear F,
The topic has long been exhausted. And, I 've no more time to spend with you on this thread.
Good luck to you.
Re: Re: The Blasphemy law
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by hafeez123: *
You forget:
On matters of zina a woman must PROVIDE FOUR witnesses (adult, muslim and male) to prove that she was not the initiator of the sexual misconduct or adultery.
Failure to provide the four witnesses means the woman is a liar; and the man is set free.
The woman is then sent to a women's holding house (jail) where she will await, indifinitely, her fate.
Why?
Because, no Judge in Pak will sentence her to be STONED.
and,
If she is RELEASED then she would be killed by her own family members for DISHONOUR; for bringing shame to the family's name.
[/QUOTE]
definately if there is any such clause it is unislamic................islam has very strict rules for punishing some one and even more strict when it comes to zina................