The bigger picture

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

I am sorry for offending some people with this posting although this is not meant to be offensive.

I think that the muslims of today are extremely shallow in their thinking mainly due to the intellectual repression in all muslim countries and culture. We take everything in the Quran too literally without understanding the logic or trying to follow the real message. We call the western world kaffirs (although they are ahle kitaab) and please ourselves by saying that God has given them this world and set aside the afterlife for us. We are more worried about whether women should or should not cut their hair then we are about caring for other beings.

In my opinion, God made man for a reason. He made us because we have the ability to deputize him through our high intellect- that’s why he got all angels etc to bow to man. Now if he wanted us to pray and praise him, why bother with us when he has millions of angels. The main reason for our existence therefore is to develop our intellect to the level that maybe one day, we understand him. Also to look after and care for all the other beings (haqooq-ul-ibaad). The praying is also important to remind us that afterall he is the boss and to teach us discipline. If that is the case, who is closer to God these days- the paranoid and regressive muslims or the progressive and caring kaffirs?

I think that man has evolved over the last 1500 years to a higher level of intellect. The Quran’s main purpose was to convince the ignorant people of 600AD that God exists. The mention of the Sun, Moon & Stars etc was enough to convince them that God exists. But now that we understand the world better, should we not try to read between the lines and find the real message in the Quran by relating modern scientific discoveries to references in the Quran?

An example of this is Darwin’s theory and evolution of man. There is sufficient evidence to back up this theory but we laugh at it without trying to understand it. (similar to 16th Century Christian church). Now maybe the story of Adam & Eve describes humans (descendents of the ape) gaining consciousness through divine intervention? as proposed by Allama Iqbal in his book. According to Iqbal, the theory of evolution was first aired by a muslim scholar of the 12th/13th century!! (In those days Islam was a progressive religion).

There are many references in the Quran that everyone accepts are out of date- like the concept of having “baandi’s” - women slaves that you can sleep with legally without wedlock !! - so why can we not accept that some other elements of shariah are also out of date and make a practical workable islamic system for the 21st century. We will not succeed in this day and age without doing so and thus we will always remain backwards and therefore not be favoured by Allah himself (in my humble opinion)

Looking forward to being crucified !!!

2

I agree actually.

3

does the following verses are really from quran?

Q.9: 29
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

4

I don't mean to offend either, but most people are stupid, I include myself in these masses, so instead of worrying about our fellow idiot, why do we not try and better ourselfs?
Only when we are perfect do we have the right to "convert" others to our way. If it makes you happy to pray to a cat, and you don't try to make me do the same then I'm happy for you. But please don't insult what I believe in, It is neither your business nor your right. Feel free to understand and appreciate my point of view, but under no circumstances do I feel that people have the right to insult religions.

On that note, did they not burn women alive in Hinduism? ALong with their husbands. Were children not sacrificed in hinduism once?
Of course neither is legally done now. And there must be many teachings in hinduism that are admirable, there are unsavoury aspects to all religions and its important to read within the context.
But you and some others seem to have a "thang" against Islam, you are no better than the masses who follow with their eyes shut, as you discriminate with equal ignorance.

Celebrate the diversity that causes people to find truth in different sources. And remain happy on your high horse.

5

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rvikz: *
does the following verses are really from quran?

Q.9: 29
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
[/QUOTE]

--== ** From Defensive War to Terrorism ** ==-

Let me show you all how a beautiful teaching on defensive warfare has been turned into a command to terrorism by ignoring the context of the verse posted above:

1- That the verse you posted is about a specific group of people who broke their peace treaty with Muslims:

"Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty."(9:1)

2- The reason why the war was allowed:

"Will you not fight a people who have broken their oaths, and who plotted to turn out the Messenger, and they were the first to commence hostilities against you ? Do you fear them ? Nay, Allah is most worthy that you should fear HIM, if you are believers." (9:12)

3- The rest of the world is not included in them:

"Except those of the disbelievers with whom you have entered into a treaty and who have not subsequently failed you in anything nor aided anyone against you. So fulfil to these the treaty you have made with them till their term. Surely Allah loves those that are righteous. "

4- A time of four months was given for them to return to the peace treaty:

" So go about in the land for four months, and know that you cannot frustrate the plan of Allah and that Allah will humiliate the disbelievers." (9:2)

5- Only if they do not stop fighting you in those four months are you allowed to attack them:

" And when the forbidden months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever you find them and take them captive..." (9:5)

6- If they ask for Asylem, do not attack them:

"And if anyone of the idolaters seeks protection of thee, grant him protection so that he may hear the Word of Allah; then convey him to his place of security. That is because they are a people who have no knowledge." (9:6)

Its so easy to read one verse and ignore the rest of them!

6

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Paaga| |nsaan: *

--== ** From Defensive War to Terrorism ** ==-

Let me show you all how a beautiful teaching on defensive warfare has been turned into a command to terrorism by ignoring the context of the verse posted above:

1- That the verse you posted is about a specific group of people who broke their peace treaty with Muslims:

"Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty."(9:1)

2- The reason why the war was allowed:

"Will you not fight a people who have broken their oaths, and who plotted to turn out the Messenger, and they were the first to commence hostilities against you ? Do you fear them ? Nay, Allah is most worthy that you should fear HIM, if you are believers." (9:12)

3- The rest of the world is not included in them:

"Except those of the disbelievers with whom you have entered into a treaty and who have not subsequently failed you in anything nor aided anyone against you. So fulfil to these the treaty you have made with them till their term. Surely Allah loves those that are righteous. "

4- A time of four months was given for them to return to the peace treaty:

" So go about in the land for four months, and know that you cannot frustrate the plan of Allah and that Allah will humiliate the disbelievers." (9:2)

5- Only if they do not stop fighting you in those four months are you allowed to attack them:

" And when the forbidden months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever you find them and take them captive..." (9:5)

6- If they ask for Asylem, do not attack them:

"And if anyone of the idolaters seeks protection of thee, grant him protection so that he may hear the Word of Allah; then convey him to his place of security. That is because they are a people who have no knowledge." (9:6)

Its so easy to read one verse and ignore the rest of them!
[/QUOTE]

you mean agreement between pakistan and india is based on scriptures?
or is it under un or simla agreeent?

7

OK. So what things do you believe should be dropped from Islam because you believe it's outdated? Or better yet, what should be introduced so that it's 'modernized'?

8

Some people in this forum seem to live in a bubble covered with an oily sheath, anything that makes any sense just slips right past without even hovering anywhere near their conciousness

9

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Lajawab: *
OK. So what things do you believe should be dropped from Islam because you believe it's outdated? Or better yet, what should be introduced so that it's 'modernized'?
[/QUOTE]

already lot of things dropped like concept of darul-islam and darul-harab
and crimen and punishemnts based purly on relgious text.
the acceptance and respect of sovereign countries and territories.

10

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Lajawab: *
OK. So what things do you believe should be dropped from Islam because you believe it's outdated? Or better yet, what should be introduced so that it's 'modernized'?
[/QUOTE]

Firstly, a little message for rvikz: keep your nose out of it- this was to provoke debate between muslims, not for hindus to use it as a vehicle to mock our religion.

Back to the main point:

I believe that first & foremost we need to become more practical. I think 90% of muslims yearn for an ideal islamic state but that doesn't exist anywhere- mainly because it is not practical. So I think Sharia should be tranformed to the 21st century. Sharia was great in it's time - it brought us civilization in the age of ignorance. It gave women some rights, it laid out laws for almost anything etc etc. But for me, in the 21st century, out goes the discrimination for women (inheritence, hijaab, shahadat , etc) and in comes total equality. Also out goes the brutal punishments such as amputation etc as they were accepted in those uncivilized times but now there are more civilized ways of dealing with the issues. Also out goes Qasaas- no logic for it in today's world.

Next we need to understand that Islam came about in a hostile environment and had to go through a battle of survival. So there are many defensive measures in there that are probably not relevent today such as Militancy (Jihad, shahadat etc), "do not befriend non-muslims", shirk to the level that pictures are not allowed etc. Now that islam is established as a major religion, there is no longer any need for "offensive" Jihad (to spread the word by sword) although defensive will always be required. We are enlightened enough to know that by seeing a photo or statue we will not worship it so that stipulation is irrelevent. We need to survive in this world amongst others so we should befriend others inc jews & christians.

Finally I think we need to stop worrying about the "correct" way- there are too many versions as 1500 years have gone. Any version is correct as long as it follows the main message. lets not worry about fine details of worship and concentrate on trying to be good human beings for insaans & hewaans !!

Any comments??

11

K, I agree with most of what you have said in your earlier post. But here you start with an assumption that there is no islamic state because its not practical and Shria is some sort of out dated law. Lets look at it this way, Shria is an evolving process but when we stop using it as law of the land it’s going to be out dated. It has been 80 years since the last time we had any Shria based judiciary system. So if we start using it in our regular courts (in Pakistan) it will become practicle.

Your reference regarding women being half witness, shows that how mush we know about the judiciary in islam. Very few muslim know that in Shria, there are many instances where a man is considered as half witness as well, so it all depends on the situation, and the same applies for women. So we should all try to better understand the Islamic judiciary system.

….other things later inshallah

12

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Khattana: *

Firstly, a little message for rvikz: keep your nose out of it- this was to provoke debate between muslims, not for hindus to use it as a vehicle to mock our religion.

Back to the main point:

I believe that first & foremost we need to become more practical. I think 90% of muslims yearn for an ideal islamic state but that doesn't exist anywhere- mainly because it is not practical. So I think Sharia should be tranformed to the 21st century. Sharia was great in it's time - it brought us civilization in the age of ignorance. It gave women some rights, it laid out laws for almost anything etc etc. But for me, in the 21st century, out goes the discrimination for women (inheritence, hijaab, shahadat , etc) and in comes total equality. Also out goes the brutal punishments such as amputation etc as they were accepted in those uncivilized times but now there are more civilized ways of dealing with the issues. Also out goes Qasaas- no logic for it in today's world.

Next we need to understand that Islam came about in a hostile environment and had to go through a battle of survival. So there are many defensive measures in there that are probably not relevent today such as Militancy (Jihad, shahadat etc), "do not befriend non-muslims", shirk to the level that pictures are not allowed etc. Now that islam is established as a major religion, there is no longer any need for "offensive" Jihad (to spread the word by sword) although defensive will always be required. We are enlightened enough to know that by seeing a photo or statue we will not worship it so that stipulation is irrelevent. We need to survive in this world amongst others so we should befriend others inc jews & christians.

Finally I think we need to stop worrying about the "correct" way- there are too many versions as 1500 years have gone. Any version is correct as long as it follows the main message. lets not worry about fine details of worship and concentrate on trying to be good human beings for insaans & hewaans !!

Any comments??
[/QUOTE]

it is just argument dont take it serious.

13

The Christians and Jews cannot be call Ahlay kitab today because they are committing shirk by calling Jesus god and some jews also have similar concept meaning they believe there was this other guy who was son of god.

Therefore, yes they are kafirs. Allah can forgive all of your sins but shirk is not going to be tolerated and also allah will never compromise when it comes to the issue of prophethood.

Yes i agree with you though, shariah needs to be reformed because it is man made and also based on the interpreations of the scholars of that time. We need to reinterpret sharia.

Believe it or not, many Muslims scholars of today believe in the theory of evolution, but they dont agree with the darwin's own theory of evolution. Evolution did happen, but not trhough darwin's logic but if you look at in terms of prophethood and every thing then you will know I am talking about.

The reason why prophets kept coming because the time was changing and those prophets came with the message that was necessary for the people of that specific period and as the time kept changing prophets also came accordingly.

Correct me if I am wrong, i think Prophet David was the first prophet who was told by allah to fight for the sake of his message and i think it was the first jihad through that we can find with the refrences of koran.

Before Prophet David, the messangers and prophets were ordered just to preach and not to take matters in to their own hand.

So in a way evolution did happen. I know many ahmadis are going to attack me.

14

the darwin theory is stupid…
not from the point of what Islam teaches us, but also from scientific point too…
it has been rejected by almost everyone in the world…

atleast come up with better examples… :rolleyes:

15

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Angryyoungman23: *
**Therefore, yes they are kafirs.*
[/QUOTE]

ahaaN shabaash. taaliyaaN Ab aapko kia haasil hua kissi aur ko kafir kehtay huay? Did that increase your imaan, your spirituality, your knowledge of Islam?

Why don't we focus more upon worrying about ourselves rather than throwing down labels. Let Allah do the judging...one of His Names is "Ya Hakam" - the Judge. Let Allah judge others. You and i worry about ourselves.

ps- i know you will call me an Ahmadi/Kafir/Qadiyani/blah blah blah... For whatever it may be worth, i am none of the above. i am Muslim first and last.

16

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Nadia_H: *

ahaaN shabaash. taaliyaaN Ab aapko kia haasil hua kissi aur ko kafir kehtay huay? Did that increase your imaan, your spirituality, your knowledge of Islam?

Why don't we focus more upon worrying about ourselves rather than throwing down labels. Let Allah do the judging...one of His Names is "Ya Hakam" - the Judge. Let Allah judge others. You and i worry about ourselves.

ps- i know you will call me an Ahmadi/Kafir/Qadiyani/blah blah blah... For whatever it may be worth, i am none of the above. i am Muslim first and last.
[/QUOTE]

Good logic Nadia...We should really try and better ourselves from the inside first...Make ourselves pure and follow the deen...In the meantime if someone who is not pure and unenlightened and greedy comes into our homes to take all that we have we can use that spirituality to convert him to our way of thinking...If of course he lets us live that long...

17

Miss Nadia:)

I personally dont care what another person believes, but I do have problems with ahamadis and whoever dont have the right belief in prophethood.

Nadia if you are also an ahmadi then i guess you didn't read my reply that i dont want any thing to with ahmadis and i appreciate if they dont reply to my posts and topics.

The reason why I called christian kafirs because some one earliar called them the people of the book. They were people of the book because during the time of our prophet christians didn't have the notion of Jesus being god.

This idea is fairly new and instead of believing in god they think jesus is god himself. Therefore, they are not people of the book any more they have become practical kafirs because they are doing shirk. Allah can tolerate every thing, but he cannot tolerate a person committing shirk. I guess you are more knowledgable than me in koran and dont tell me Allah doesn't express his hate for those who commit shirk.

Again I dont care what they really believe, but i can't call apple oranges or a cat a a dog. Therefore, a cat must remains a cat despite of what it does and a dog must remains a dog again despite of what it does. Therefore, a christians are kafir because they are committing shirk.

18

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Nadia_H: *
Let Allah do the judging...one of His Names is "Ya Hakam" - the Judge.

[/QUOTE]

actually its without the "Ya", just thought i'd point it out.... :)

19

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Angryyoungman23: *
Miss Nadia:)

I personally dont care what another person believes, but I do have problems with ahamadis and whoever dont have the right belief in prophethood.

Nadia if you are also an ahmadi then i guess you didn't read my reply that i dont want any thing to with ahmadis and i appreciate if they dont reply to my posts and topics.

The reason why I called christian kafirs because some one earliar called them the people of the book. They were people of the book because during the time of our prophet christians didn't have the notion of Jesus being god.

This idea is fairly new and instead of believing in god they think jesus is god himself. Therefore, they are not people of the book any more they have become practical kafirs because they are doing shirk. Allah can tolerate every thing, but he cannot tolerate a person committing shirk. I guess you are more knowledgable than me in koran and dont tell me Allah doesn't express his hate for those who commit shirk.

Again I dont care what they really believe, but i can't call apple oranges or a cat a a dog. Therefore, a cat must remains a cat despite of what it does and a dog must remains a dog again despite of what it does. Therefore, a christians are kafir because they are committing shirk.
[/QUOTE]

who realy care your are giving somebody certidficate of "people of the book" ? are you going to stop the economic aid or something.
are you going impose some kind of sanctions based on somebody's belief?

20

I personally dont care who believes what, but i do acknowledge that if a person is a kafir or not.

If you dont want to then its up to you.

I also hang out with many non muslim people too, so dont get me wrong.

But again, I will call a person a kafir if he fits the definition of kafir.