The Big Sunni Shia dialogue on the Friends Show !

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Salaam all,

I have been telling you all about this show. It finally took place and now is uploaded on the YouTube. Hope you all listen to this informative show and benefit from it. Wasalaams.

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Re: The Big Sunni Shia dialogue on the Friends Show !

As-Salamu 'Alaykum

I watched first 31 mins and poor job by bro orthdox.

Timepass - November 2012
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Re: The Big Sunni Shia dialogue on the Friends Show !

Peace

I have only listened to 37 mins as yet and here are some observations. Obviously I will talk from the Sunni perspective.

First here are some notes on groups and their key characteristics:

Qadariyah - extreme free will
Jabariya - fatalistic

Sunni - Abu Bakr (RA), Umar (RA), Uthman (RA), Ali (RA)
Shi'a - Lineage of Fatimah(RA)
Sufi - Esoteric, Mystic, Extraneous

Khaariji - Puritan, Accountability by dogma and chance, bias toward fatalism

Progressives - bias toward change - culture driven

Mutazali - utilisation of Greek rationalism

Ash'ari - philosophic, began to bias toward taqlid and rely less on ijtihad hence have traditionalist persona

Maturidi - Like Ash'ari - bent to rationalism

Athari - No speculation (no derivation)

Murjite - No penalty on believers, saviour types

Zahiri - literalists

Mujassami - anthropomorphists

Muhadithi - puritan traditionalists - no external development

Shi'a ~
Twelvers -

Usooli and Alevi

Usooli - taqlid and fiqh of Ayatollahs
Alevi - shamanism similar to unitarian Christians

Akhbari, Alawi, Shaykhi, Ismaili, Nizari

Akhbari - favour hadith over ijtihad - closer to Sunnis in methods

Alawi - similar to templars mystics and gnostics

Shaykhi - combo of sufi, shi'a and akhbari

Ismaili - like twelvers but vary on 6th imam, innovative practices

Nizari - Aga Khans from them, Imam of their own, political differences, more modernistic

Mutaali - political variants of Nizaris

Bohras - Sulaimni bohra, Dawoodi bohra - alavi bohra, tayabi, Mustaali and hafizi

Zaiddiya - non twlevers, non-isma'ili, 5th Imam dispute

Sunni Fiqhs
Hanafi - allow one instance of alcohol, largest group, high on judicial matters
Hanbali - no senitment of compassion before truth, smallest group, Literal bias
Maliki - allow dog meat, second largest group, focus on character
Shaf'i - allow marriage with step-daughter after divorce, third in number, good flexibility
Kharijites -
Ibadi -
2 chaliphs rejected Uthman (RA)
Wali
Segregation from kuffar
Suspiscious of others beliefs
non-aggressive
Sufri - Aggressives, rejected Surah 12
Sufis
Bektashi - glorify 'Ali(RA)
Chisti - studious mystics, non-silent
Naqshbandi - silent dzikr
Oveyssi - cloak, inward guidance
Qadiri - oldet sufi order, position for mystical experience
Suhrawardi - out spoken, dynamic mysticsm, socialists
Hanafi main types in subcontinent
Barelwi - 60%
Deobandi - 40%

Please see next post for comments on the talk

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Re: The Big Sunni Shia dialogue on the Friends Show !

13 mins - Belief of innocent Imams has not been cited with a reference, later rational angle attempted by saying 2 points - Imams have fuller knowledge and they are protected ... This is not a rational angle it is a belief based on other beliefs

No evidence cited that they 1) have more knowledge 2) are protected for having true beliefs

Later in citations of the word 'Imama' in Qur'an is translated as Imam but to say leader is wrong. Why? It is because a leader can be anyone, but an Imam has to fit the royalty.

However, the presence of the term Imama does not mandate the Shi'a interpretation of it. Something else needs to suggest that it is erroneous to assume Imama is anything other than Royal leaders.

At 25 mins in there is some rational pointing, but no claims. The answer to the question is that Abu Bakr (RA) set the mould for leaders to come.

Historically Shi'a separated for political reasons

At 28 mins an attempt is made to rationalise the position of having khilafah or Imama as a Divine appointment, but the argument was said to be traditional and a jump was made to arrive at the conclusion.

At 32 mins - Reflexive argumentation used to dismantle ijma' by saying that Sunnis differ on core issues. Please read previous post above. Yes they do differ but that is not rational reason to support Imamate because there is no rational conclusion that can be drawn from this.

At 34mins 30 sec - claims that there is no need for consultation the Imam knows - that may be true but it has not been established that Imamate is valid yet.

The last argument raised in the time I listened was that the Salafis existence supports the need for Imamate ... but this is fallacious argument because Shi'a who believe in Imamate also differ in terms who the Imams really are. At least three differ ... Isma'ilis, Fivers and Twelvers. On the basis that we take the shi'a brothers reasoning as valid then he destroys the Shi'a basis in with the argument.

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Re: The Big Sunni Shia dialogue on the Friends Show !

Salaam Psyah,

Good observations. This audio is being discussed in various forums over the web and due to the nature of the dialogue (it wasn't a debate!) and various other limitations, both sides never got a proper chance to explain their stance. Besides the content was more like "The differences between Shias and Sunnis 101". However whats more important is that this dialogue was done in a very brotherly and polite manner and Insha Allah we will be trying to organise such events in the future, Insha Allah.

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I too listened to it for about 35 minutes.

I am being cynical. It seemed as if bro Orthodox ‘Sunni’ was playing the role of ‘Friendly opposition’ (very defensive – just putting forward Sunni point of view without any conviction in the voice) making the input by the other guy (Shia) seem confident, knowledgeable, correct, logical and self-assured.

At around 27:27 the Shia speaker says the often repeated core Shia belief about Imamate. He very confidently tried to prove that it’s proved in the Quran.

I would like my Shia brothers/sisters to explain in their own words the following 2 questions:

1) How does the Hidden Imam Guide/help the Shia?

Are the eminent Shia scholars guided by the hidden Imam when facing a new predicament/challenge?

Please don’t give me any links ( I have seen them all :) and please not the famous quotation given below.

[QUOTE]
"In the same way that they benefit from the sun when it is hidden behind a cloud"
[/QUOTE]

I can understand the point where the first 11 Imams were at hand (alive) they were available to answer any query and predicament faced by the followers.

I am aware that that the hidden Imam is unapproachable and if anyone claimed that he had met the hidden Imam he would would be considered to be a big liar.

2) The following is the core Shia belief:

“The earth will never be without an Imam. Were there to be no Imam, destruction and collapse would be the ineluctable fate of the world."

I would like to know: Who was the Imam preceding Prophet (saw) and the one before him?

[Please don’t give me any links (I have seen them all :)]

Did the Prophet (saw) mention them?

Please no speculations – I would prefer credible references.

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stopped after first 30s. Waste of time. Maulvis should stick to leading their own version of the prayer. There is no need to have these dialogues. Nothing comes out of these meetings. They only serve as a wrestling match, where each side's supporters shout takbeer on frequent basis.

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I have not listened to the whole audio but the efforts like this show are laudable. Thanks for sharing this link.

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The asnwer of you question is hidden in the red part of your own comment. The previous Imams of Ahlulbayt [as] gave all those teachings which were sufficient for their adherents who would see the time of the occultation of Imam. That was the reason that last Imam is reported to have said that the book [al-kafi] is sufficient i.e. those of Ahlulbayt [as] adherents who are to live during the time of the occultation of the last Imam, they need to follow the teachings of the previous Imams and consult the well versed people i.e. the ulema in respect to any new matter. If we analyze the lives of previous Imams, we would come to know that they actually laid down the foundation of a system which not only helped the adherents in their respective eras but for us who are living in the period where the Imam is in occultation, by system I am referring to the act of conculting ulema in order to know the issues. So the bottom line is, the Imam physically not here [for the time being] does not mean one should right away reject the concept of Hujutullah rather one has to keep faith in the existence of Imam on earth, thats it.

Firstly, in the broader view, it is the Hujutullah whose existence is indespensible for earth and calling it ‘Imam’ will be rather specefic. And secondly, this belief is not exclusive to the Shias but there is a tradition in Sahih Bukhari regarding Imam Mahdi [as] while Imam of AhleSunnah Ibn Hajar Asqalani very relevantly in the commentary of that tradition stated:

[RIGHT]الأرض لا تخلو عن قائم لله بحجة[/RIGHT]

“The earth is never devoid of him who stands for Allah with a proof (Hujjah)”

We as a Shia do not really need to know the names of each and every Hujutullah the earth has seen uptil today in order to remain a believer, we are only concerned with those Hujjahs, who are appointed for this nation. While the question is not neither logical nor practical to answer but since the belief is also shared by you, I would certainly like to know, who was the Hujutullah preceding Prophet [s] and the one before him, just for my personal knowledge? :slight_smile:

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Understanding of Imam Al Mahdi will depend on how you see the concept of Imamat as presented in the Quran and Hadith. I will still try to answer your queries.

1) Shaitaan misguides while being unseen. Why cant Imam Al Mahdi guide while being unseen?

Shia ulema use Quran and then study lives and rulings of the Prophet and the Imams to reach results when they perform Ijtehad.

2) Shia belief is that the earth is never empty from a hujjat or guidance of Allah (swt).

I have heared that certain individuals from Bani Hashim were the source of guidance before the time of our Prophet. Bani Hashim were the custodians of the Baitullah.

By the way, may i ask how do you see the ayats such as AlBaqarah 124 and AlBaqarah 128 from the holy Quran? thank you

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**BOY-NICE **- Salaams – So you agree to the fact that you have to consult the Ulema (Scholars) for guidance or to ‘know the issues’.

Isn’t that exactly what the Sunnis do – consult the scholars to answer their queries – which the learned scholars refer to Quran and Hadith.

And you as a Shia do not have services of Imams as the Shias did in the time of ‘present Imams’.

You have mentioned Al-Kafi which you have agreed had the seal of approval of the Hidden Imam himself.

And the Shia narrations state that: “He was the one who named it “Al-Kafi” (meaning “sufficient”) by saying, as reported by al-Khwansari in “Rawdat al-Jannat” (vol.6, p.116): “hadha kafin li-shi‘atina” (This is sufficient for our Shia).”

I am sure the Imam had gone the whole book before giving his seal of approval.

But guess what about 600 years later Prominent Shia Scholar declares 64% (two thirds) of Al-Kafi not to be Sahih.
*

Selections from Usul al Kafi

Now was this scholar too guided by the Imam to sort the sahih hadith from the rest?

Also there is a major controversy among the 12er Shias and that is the Concept of wilayat-ul-faqih (guardianship of the jurist) many Shias Scholars approve of it and many more including many prominent ones (Ayatullahs) strongly disapprove and some have also imprisoned on the orders of Ayatullahs.

Should not the Hidden Imam avail his services and guide the ‘momins’ to the right path?

This has nothing to do with 12er Shia version of Imam Mahdi (ra).

The Sunni have the concept of Imam Mahdi but it does not fit with what Shias believe to be Imam Mahdi (ra).

He is yet to be born.

Strange! The Prophet (saw) would have at least mentioned him at once. He never did.

The Prophet (saw) never met Hatim Tai but praised him for his wisdom but never did care to mention the Imam before him!!?? He would have if the concept of Imamate was valid.

Sunnis do not believe in Imamate and concept of Imamate is not supported by Quran.

Sunnis believe in Prophethood.

And the immediate Prophet before Rasool Allah (saw) was Prophet Issa (as).

This is what the Quran states Hz. Issa (as) will say to Allah (swt) when questioned if he taught his followers the concept of Trinity

"I told them only what You commanded me to say, that: `You shall worship GOD, my Lord and your Lord.’ I was a witness among them for as long as I lived with them. When You terminated my life on earth, You became the Watcher over them. You witness all things. [5:117]

Did not Hz. Issa (as) foretold his followers the coming of the next imam.

And when Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is the Praised One (Ahmed). Yet when he hath come unto them with clear proofs, they say: This is mere magic. [61:6]

And, the one before Hz. Issa (as) should be Yahya ibn Zakariya (as) [John the Baptist]

I thank you for your response

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*Surdar Asif *– Salaams - I think brother you are giving divine qualities to the Imam.

It is Allah (swt) who guides whom He wants and Shaytaan misguides only by leave of Allah (swt).

It is man who has the free will to choose the path to Success or to Doom.
Refer to the following ayahs: Guidance to the truth is in the hand of Allah (swt) alone and no human being has any share in that, as Allah (swt)said to His Messenger.

Verily, you (O Muhammad) guide not whom you like, but Allaah guides whom He wills. And He knows best those who are the guided [al-Qasas 28:56]

And the duty of the Messenger is o¬nly to convey (the Message) plainly [al-Ankaboot 29:18]

That is just like the Sunni Ulema who use the Quran and Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) to derive at their rulings.

So we both (Shias & Sunnis) go the reputable scholars for guidance for any situation that ‘bothers’ us.

It is Allah (swt)’s infinite Mercy that since creation of Makind that He has guided the Mankind through His Prophets. Allah’s Gudiance has always been there.
Prophet Muhammad (saw) is the last Prophet (saw) so no more any Wahis from Allah (saw).

We have to refer to the Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) for guidance and anything beyond that is misguidance.

Did these individuals from Bani Hashim receive any guidance from Allah (swt)?

Yes there were many individuals who were Hanifs (believed in monotheism) but they were not exclusive to Bani Hashim.

And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He. [2:124]

Our Lord! and make us both submissive to Thee and (raise) from our offspring a nation submitting to Thee, and show us our ways of devotion and turn to us (mercifully), surely Thou art the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful. [2:128]

Brother, this has nothing to do with 12er Shia concept of Imamate.

This is prayer of Hz. Ibrahim (as) and accepted his prayer and blessed many from his progeny to become Prophets (asa) and ending with the greatest of them all.

Just to make a point – Sunnis do take all the 11 ‘12er Imams’ as persons of highest piety & integrity, very knowledgeable and righteous men and are worthy of respect. We also believe that they all followed and taught what the Mainstream Sunnis follow now.

Of course Sunnis do not believe in the 12th Imam.

And another interesting point:

Imam Reza, the 8th Imam of the 12er Shia, made a very interesting point when it was suggested that his father the 7th Imam had gone into occultation: “If Allah wanted to extend the life of any of his servants for the need of people to him, he would have extended the life of his Prophet.” (Kashi, Marifah al-Rijal, p.379)

I thank you for your response

From Tibet Snow to Beauty Parlors
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salam…

No there is a big difference what Sunnies do and what we Shias ‘of the present age’ do. We do consult the ulema but having faith in the existence of Imam on earth while Sunnies dont. Again, the main difference comes in the sources from where ulema derive the things, as you mentioned only Quran and Hadith while we our ulema consult to the text of the Imams of Ahlulbayt [as] too. Thus, both things can never be comapred.

Imam never said the whole book is “sahih” or each and every thing init is absolutely authentic, thats your personal interpretation to that. The book was referred to Kafi i.e. ‘sufficient’ and I dont think any dictionary in the world would have synonym of word ‘sufficient’ as ‘authentic’ . So you are really mixing two things up.

That again is open to criticim, its like “Ahle Sunnah wal Jamat” divided into Ahle Hadith who would only follow Hadith while on the other hand we have Hanafi Sunnies etc, who would to Taqleed. So both the parties will be bringing their arguments to back up their ideology.

I never claimed any such thing in my post, my point was to point out that having aqeedah of the existence of Hujutullah on earth is not exclusive to the Shias but Sunnies also believe in it.

Now I dont really think that Prophet [s] should have worried about someone in our age calling His [s] stance to be ‘strange’. Why really he should have mentioned it, any good reason? And if you are uneasy with the stance of Prophet [s] for not letting you know the name of an individual then you or for that matter anyone here can also bring a number of objections over Holy Prophet [s] for not letting us know various other names. So I dont think your objection is logical.

I am not aware of any such thing [about Hatim Tai] but even if that is true, then Prophet [s] didnt mention various other pious saints this earth has seen, that doesnt mean they never existed. Moreover, your conjecture [on Shia belief of Imamate] that just because prophet didnt mention the names of the Hujjahs before him while he mentioned those to come after him will negate the whole concept of Imamate as null and void, is totally your personal view which to me is quite illogical. To us, Prophet [s] mentioned the source of guidance after Him [s] and that is sufficient for us, we are not concerned with the names of those Hujjahs who came before Prophet [s], because that will backfire on you as well, because as you know we being a Muslim have to have faith in all of the prophets and we cannot reject any of the prophet Allah has ever sent on earth, but do we know names of each and every prophet? Hope that clarifies the question.

That has nothing to do with our discussion here, what you are saying is well known stance of Ahe Sunah which Shias obviously do not agree to. So this ‘statement’ from your side wasnt really worthed.

What you are doing is mere interpretation of the verses. If my memory serves me, then what I had read long time back [since its been a long time that I have just stopped reading books etc] then there were some disciples of Isa [as], they might have been the Hujutullahs of their respective time, because as I said, it really doesnt matter if we do not know the names of the each and every Hujutullah and for that matter each and ever Prophet this earth has seen [remember there were 124000 prophjets].

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wasalam brother Ibn Sadique, Indeed Shaitaan misleads due to the leave given to him by the Allah. Imamah is a guidance, which emanates from the command of Allah. An Imam leads because that is exactly what Allah (swt) has made him an Imam for;

[21.73] And We made them (ie Ibrahim, Ishaq, Yaqoub) Imams who guided by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve;

And Habibi AlBaqarah verse 124 and 128 clearly make a distinction between the Prophethood and the Imamate. This verse holds the key to understaing Imamate. I would recomend you to read tafseer from Allama Husyan Tabatabai if you wish to study comprehensive analysis of these ayahs in the light of the Holy Quran.

And you are absolutely correct to say that "we have to refer to the Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) for guidance and anything beyond that is misguidance". That is why after the Prophet we follow the family of the Prophet to make sure that we do not follow anything outside the bounds of the command of the Allah and his Prophet.

If the Shia Imams taught "Sunni" Islam then why dont the Sunni follow them as our Prophet (saww) had commanded? what are these quarrels for?

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Salaam…

That’s exactly what I mean. The hidden Imam doesn’t really play any part in your religious needs. Just like Sunnis you have to approach the Ulema for guidance and Imam’s services are not available.

Of course the paths of sourcing is different but the source is the same.

The Imam does NOT have to the use the word ‘sahih’. Accordding to you he is infallible, so when having reviewed Al Kafi, he says that Al Kafi is sufficient for my Shia doesn’t that tacitly imply that all in there is ok from him and that he has given his seal of approval.

If all was not Sahih therein (Al Kafi) is the Hidden Imam not obligated as a infallible Guide to correct the the Al Kafi while he was reviewing it.

BOY-NICE – According to you (Shias) the concept of Imamate is as important if not more as Prophethood. He mentioned all the Prophets that were related to that area (Middle East) but not mention of Imams just prior to him indicates that there is no concept of Imamate in Islam.

But as a Shia you have right to your beliefs.

Refer to my reply to previous to above quotation that should be sufficient for this too.

BOY-NICE By you saying that I am merely interpreting the verses doesn’t mean that you are right.

By quoting the relevant ayahs I proved to you the Quran mentions the very person who was sent by Allah (swt) for guidance. For the Middle East this was relevent. That’s why all the Prophets mentioned in the Quran are Middle Eastern.

Mentioning other Prophets not known in area would have made no sense.

Prophet’s (saw) silence about Imams just previous to him indicates that there is not concept of Imamate in Islam. Had it been he would have mentioned a immediate few.

But then as a Shia you are entitled to your views.

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Salaams brother Surdar Asif

Sorry brother to disagree with you – The Guidance is in the Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw). Shia and Sunni agree that the righteous Ulemah are the inheritors of the Prophet (saw) and that they we all as individuals should guide each other to the good deeds and beliefs.

In response to brother BOY-NICE I have shown that the Hidden Imam gave his seal of approval for Al Kafi saying that it was sufficient for the Shia but left daeef (weak) hadith within the book and that is around 65%!!!!!!!

As a guide appointed by decree of Allah (swt) as a guide is he not duty –bound to correct the mistakes while reviewing the book.

Brother, I giving you the translations of the above ayah, note the word ‘Imam’ has no connection to the Shia concept of Imamate.

And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve; [Shakir 21:73]

And We made them leaders, guiding (men) by Our Command, and We sent them inspiration to do good deeds, to establish regular prayers, and to practise regular charity; and they constantly served Us (and Us only). [Yusufali 21:73]

And We made them chiefs who guide by Our command, and We inspired in them the doing of good deeds and the right establishment of worship and the giving of alms, and they were worshippers of Us (alone). [Pickthal 21:73]

Brother, that is only the Shia who see it as such.
If you note the authentic narrations of Hz. Ali (ra) and his pious sons, they never claimed to the Imams of the time!!!

And yet you exclude his wives and other cousins from his family. The Prophet (saw) did not teach exclusively to his family (Shia version) but all the prominent companions who were always with him.

His family and the Companions are source of what the Prophet (saw) had taught. And no one else who had not met the Prophet (saw).

If you note that no prominent Classical Shia scholar has studied under the patronage of ‘liviing Shia’ imams. All these Scholars and Shia Hadith books are from the time of disappearance of the 12 Imam when he was in hiding.

Imam Abu Hanifa (rahimullah) and Imam Malik (rahimullah) spend sometime studying from Imam Baqir (rahimullah) and his son Imam Jaffar (rahimullah).
Imam Baqir (rahimullah) and his son Imam Jaffar (rahimullah) never wrote any books but taught thosands of students.

From thousands of these student Imam Abu Hanifa (rahimullah) and Imam Malik (rahimullah) are the most prominent and they both have fiqh to their names.
Obviously they learned from these Imams and carried their knowlegde in their books.

‘Shia Imams’ did not write any books. And what they taught is within the Sunni books.

And please note the following:

If one would make a circle of 1500 miles radius around Iran one would net in about 85%, if not more, entire Shia population of the world.

And the overwhelming of other 15% out of this circle would emigrants from this very areas!

Why the Shias with the services of the hidde infallible Imam at hand never ventured to spread the message of Islam to far corners of the World.

Whereas Sunnis without such ‘infallible power at hand’ just did that.

Also note that when the Ummah was under assault by the Crusaders and Mongols, the Hidden Imam was not there to lead or guide his faithful to defend the Ummah.

Whereas Sunnis without such ‘infallible power at hand’ just did that.

Timepass - November 2012
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Re: The Big Sunni Shia dialogue on the Friends Show !

[quote]

If one would make a circle of 1500 miles radius around Iran one would net in about 85%, if not more, entire Shia population of the world.

And the overwhelming of other 15% out of this circle would emigrants from this very areas!

[/quote]

Interesting observation....

The survival of 12er shiaism as the predominant sect within shias is due to a great extent to safavid dynasty in iran and its influence in indo-pak. politics
In the bigger context just as ottomans/mughals commanded absolute obedience to sunni authorities and branded all others as heretics, safavids their political rivals fiercely persecuted sunni subjects.Its like the muslim equivalent of the 30yrs wars.

It would be interesting if we investigate the biographies of the followers or alleged followers of 12er imams after Imam Baqir from both shia and sunni sources.
I say imam baqir as mostly imamaiyah hadith goback to him or jafar sadiq which support their stance.

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Wasalam Ibn Sadique. Habibi, the iheritors of the guidance after the Prophet are his Ahlul Bayt (as). What do you think of the following authentic muttawatir hadiths found in Shia and Sunni books alike:

"I m leaving among you something which is very important and should be followed, you will not go astray if you get hold of it after I am gone, one part of it being more important than the other: Allah's Book, which is a rope stretched from Heaven to Earth, and my close relatives, who belong to my household. These two will not separate from one another till they come down to the reservoir, so consider how you act regarding them after my departure." (Sahi Tirmidhi, Sahi Sahih Muslim etc)

Narrated Jabir bin Samura: I heard the Prophet saying, "There will be twelve Muslim rulers (who will rule all the Islamic world)." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, "All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraish." (Sahi Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 89, Number 329)

The above case is further supported by the Quran when it states:

[Shakir 42:23] That is of which Allah gives the good news to His servants, (to) those who believe and do good deeds. Say: I do not ask of you any reward for it but love for my near relatives; and whoever earns good, We give him more of good therein; surely Allah is Forgiving, Grateful.

Habibi, these arguments are futile unless you have some understanding of the concept of Imamat. We as Shias have certain understanding of this concept and i request you to produce your understanding of it.

[Shakir 2:124] And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He.

In the light of the above verse do you believe that Hazrat Ibrahim was a Prophet already when Allah (swt) had tried him in certain things like sacrifice of Hz Ismael etc? If you say yes then what does the above verse mean when Allah (swt) says that "i will make you an Imam"? Doesnt that at the least show distinction between Prophethood and Imamat? How do you see these two terms?

I will look forward to your response and Insha Allah we will carry on with discussing the other matters you have raised.

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And so what? Sunni countries cannot even defeat Israel and are busy licking the boots of their imperial masters. Some type of Islam they spread!

Sunni Islam is a much weaker and impotent version of Islam, they only have quantity not quality.

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Re: The Big Sunni Shia dialogue on the Friends Show !

^ Moonshiner how can u draw this conclusion from a very limited time period in history post 79 -2008]
Indeed inspiration for what happened in iran in 1979 also came from religious movements in sunni egypt which were ruthlessly suppressed by that firon Nasser]

syria is a country ruled by shias they got defeated by isreal in 3 wars [along with sunni egypt and jordan], iranian shah another shia was a long term friend of isreal.
Shias in past had cooperated with crusaders and mongols against sunnis although its fair to say these sunni sultans hardly repesented pristine islamic values]
Many of the most corrupt politicians in pakistan are shias

Most religious sunnis [and KSA is not ruled by religious leaders despite their pretences] are persecuted by corrupt kings in their country and these tyrants dont represent all sunni muslims.

Religious muslims amongst both shias and sunnis have by and large preached the same message of social/political justice and moral values.With the main difference in sources and methodology.
Similarly tyrants and so-called "moderates" amongst both shias and sunnis have also harmed islam in similar ways.

In reality the true sects amongst muslims today are
1-those who seek afterlife and belive in day of judgement
2-and those who seek this world and dont believe in afterlife