The bible in Islam

What is the Injeel that is referred to in the Quran? When one reads the Quran one gets the feeling that Hazrat Isa was given a book much like the Quran. Which was adulterated over time. Does this survive in any form today?

The bible of the christians, is a collection of gospels written by different followers. Basically the life and teachings of Hazrat Isa, historical books, comprising in large parts of the accounts of his death. This to my mind doesnt seem analogous to the Quran but more like Hadis.

So is the new testament the Injeel we read about? or was there another book thats lost to the ages?

Re: The bible in Islam

what about the old testament? in the new testament alot of things have been allowed which were previously forbidden, just to suit the devils mind!

The New Testament includes both the Gospel (Injeel) and the letters of Paul who Muslim scholars consider an imposter and who Muslim scholars believe misled the Christians from the true message of messiah Jesus son of Mary. Even The Injeel (Gospel) can be misunderstood today since it has been subjected to obvious tharif e mani. we know this because Christian sources tell us the Gospel of matthew was used by Jewish followers of Jesus who rejected the Divinity of Jesus and regarded Paul as an imposter. These Jews clearly understood the meaning of this Gospel differently than the present Christians. Islamic scholars can identify this tharif e mani by comparing the Greek in the Gospels with how the same words were used differently to translate the Jewish Bible (Torah) in Greek.

There is some dispute among Muslim scholars whether the Gospel of Matthew was subjected to tharif e mani only or whether it was also subjected to tharif e lafzi. The inability of some Muslim scholars to reconcile the text of the Gospel with the Quran led to judgments that the Gospel had also suffered tharif e lafzi. However, scholars such as Imam Bukhari have suggested that the tharif is only manvi. Later, scholars such as Sir Syed Ahmed Khan also suggested the the tharif may only be in meaning of the words.

The keys dispute is over the description or lack thereof of Muhammad in the Bible, which the Quran claims exists clearly in the Bible. After the intial success of Islam in Christian populations in the middle east, Islam started facing increasing resistance in Christian lands especially in Europe during the second century and beyond. These later Christians started asking about where was Muhammad described in the Bible? This compelled Muslim scholars to study the Bible and conclude that tharif must have taken place where the passages referring to Muhammad were deleted by the Christians and Jews.

Secondary disputes also exist in these texts over the way Jesus died and whether descendants of Isaac or Ishmael had received the promise to receive the Quran. The Quran states that Jesus was not killed nor was he crucified. These passages, on surface, seem to contradict, the Gospel version of the death of Jesus that suggests he was killed and crucified.

Re: The bible in Islam

Another thing Hadis were actually collected by the sahabas and were never changed except those by munafeqeen. but the real bible has been transformed through generations by different followers and believers

Re: The bible in Islam

thanks bob_chasm.

you say the gospels were the real injeel (at some point, before tahrif) but the gospels explicitly have the names of the scribes, and are written as historical records. as in gospel of mathew is mathew describing the events surrounding Jesus (the voice is that of a human observer, not a divine narrator). surely that cant be regarded as a Holy book in the way Muslims see Holy books (as in direct revelation from Allah)?

Re: The bible in Islam

Bob Chasm you need to read more about bible and its history.

Ravage, the same question has confused me a lot. Obviously, Quran says that Injeel was given to Jesus, and no book written or dictated by Jesus exists nor it has ever been claimed that any such book ever existed.

The closest answer i have got from Islamic scholars is that Injeel teh book described in Quran are the words spoken by Jesus that are described in new testament and most which have been lost, and rest is all story telling.

The whole issue gets even more complicated when certain statements of companions of Prophet are described, soem of which say that Injeel was altered while others say that the alterations are in understanding.

Hi Ravage, Three of the Gospels I believe are named after the Havareen of Isa. The fourth is named after prophet Yahya. The scribes I believe are anonymous and unknown. The Gospel of Matthew was known by various other names too, including the Gospel of the Hebrews. You make a good point about the difference in styles between the Quran and the Gospels. Personally, I am not certain, where Allah says we could determine which revelation is true, by comparing "styles". The OT has several different styles and it doesnt seem to bother the Jews. It is possible, The Quran was revealed in a way that suited the Arab mind. The Gospel in a style that suited the Roman mind. Ultimately, it is a question of what appeals to your mind, whether one believes there has been tharif e lafzi in the Bible or not. Personally, I feel, religion makes more sense to me when I consider the Quran as a continuation of the Bible, without tharif e lafzi.

Re: The bible in Islam

^On teh contrary Quran makes lot of sense to me, what does not make sense to me is that its a continuation of bible.

Some people like coffee. Some people like tea.

Re: The bible in Islam

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And whe he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgement. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. How be it when he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak. And he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you" (John 16:7-14)

Muhammad (The mercy of God (Rahmat ullalalamin)) is also the only man in history who brings an end to the Catastrophe described by Jesus that resulted in the immediate uniting of all the people of the Middle East, Near East, North Africa, Iran, Central Asia and Pakistan:

Matthew 24: And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars... For a nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I believe all these things (described by Jesus) happened during the time of the prophet Muhammad and Muhammad came as a mercy for mankind from Allah, to bring us the good news and hope about the end of this suffering. I believe it is because these things happened that were described in the Bible, that early Christians and Jews in the days of the Prophet accepted Muhammad and aided the Arabs with the conquest of Byzantium and fighting Heraclius.

There is overwhelming scientific evidence now that such a devastating natural catastrophe began to be unleashed on mankind by Allah about 35 years prior to the birth of the prophet. At the time the prophet declared he was the prophet, mankind believed that humanbeings were about to become extinct on earth.

Unfortunately, the Umayyid caliphs were more interested in rejecting Christian conversions so they could continue collecting jizya and conquer more lands than recording the physical events that matched the prophesies in the Bible that had convinced millions of Christians to accept Islam. It was this failure of the Umayyids, during a critical time in history, that todays Christians and Jews think the Prophet and his followers used the sword to force early Christians and Jews to convert.

It should be pointed out that it was not just the Umayyid, but also the official historians Christian Empire that also failed human history. They too did not record these events because they feared losing political control over their empire. However, there are individual Christian monks who were not affiliated with official church that have written about these events.

‘Overwhelming scientific evidence’, eh? Show me 6 sources, please.

I will post a few, but there is not enough space to post everything.

Dark Sun:

  1. In describing the climate in that year, Procopius wrote that “the sun gave forth its light without brightness like the moon during this whole year.” Other accounts of the event say that the sun became “dim” or “dark” for upto eighteen months. Its light shone “like a feeble shadow”, and people were terrified that the sun would never shine properly again. Procopius, referring to the darkened sun, later wrote that “from the time this thing happened, men were not free from war, nor pestilence nor anything leading to death.”

  2. "There was a sign from the sun, the like of which had never been seen and reported before, the sun became dark and its darkness lasted for 18 months. Each day, it shone for about four hours, and still this light was only a feeble shadow. Everyone declared that the sun would never recover its full light again. " A sixth century historian and prominent church leader, John of Ephesus, wrote these words describing the app[arent fate of our planet’s star in the year 535 and 536.

35 years of Dark Sun & drop in temperatures:

  1. Continuous tree ring chronologies, going back to the sixth century AD and beyond now exist for Finland, Sweden, the British Isles, central Europe, the Aegean, Siberia, North America, Chile, Argentina, and Tasmania. In a substantial percentage of all the tree ring chronologies covering the sixth century that have been constructed so far, the period 535-550 (and sometimes even till 560 and beyond) stands out as a time of unusually low tree ring growth. In several key chronologies, that twenty five to thirty five year period contains many of the narrowest ring sequences known for the past 2,000 years. … But from 538 or in many places 540 there was an almost universal massive decline lasting between two and eight years. This was particularly marked in the southern hemisphere where, in Chile and Tasmania, for example, full recovery was not achieved until 580s and the 570s respectively.

Significance: The most accurate records of climate change are those hidden inside the trunks of trees. The growth rings of many species preserve an indeliable annual record of climatic history. Tree ring specialsts (dendrochronologists) can attempt to reconstruct past climate by studying two telltale sets of data. One is the width of each annual growth ring, which reveals the exact amount of growth in a given year ( indeed in a given growing season, usually spring and summer). A drought or unseasonable frost that restricts growth will therefore produce narrow rings. The second, the density of each ring in confers in cool climates, yields information about temperature. The colder the weather the less dense was the timber growing at that time.

Catastrophe, An investigation into the origins of the modern world, by David Keys.

Death & Pestilence:

  1. Evagrius

The church historian Evagrius lived through four great plague epidemics and lost most of his family to them. In the year 593 at the age of fifty eight, he wrote down his memories in a very personal lamentation:

“I believe no part of the human race to have been unafflicted by the disease,” for it occurred in some cities “to such an extent that they were rendered empty of almost all their inhabitants.”

Evagrius regarded it as his responsibility to describe these events, as he was present at the beginning of the spread of the bubonic plague and was struck by it while still a schoolboy:
“And during the course of the various visitations, I lost to the disease many of my children and my wife and much of the rest of my kin … For now, as I write this, I am 58 years old and it is not quite two years since the fourth outbreak of plague struck Antioch and I lost my daughter and the son born to her in addition to those I lost earlier. …”

  1. John Ephesus

“God’s wrath turned into, as it were, a wine-press and pitilessly trampled and squeezed the inhabitants [of many cities] like fine grapes,” wrote another eyewitness of the catastrophe, the hagiographer and historian John Ephesus, in a moving and vivid account of the horror unleashed by the epidemic.

“we saw desolate and groaning villages and corpses spread out on the earth; staging posts on the roads full of darkness and solitude filling with fright everyone who happened to enter and leave them.” And “cattle abandoned and roaming scattered over the mountains with nobody to gather them.”
He saw fields, “abundant in grain which was becoming white and stood erect” yet had no one “to reap or gather it in.” And he observed “flocks of sheep, goats, oxen and pigs which had become like wild animals, having forgotten [life in] cultivated land and the human voice which used to lead them.”

“…Thus, when I [John of Ephesus], a wretch, wanted to include these matters in a record of history, my thoughts were seized many times by stupor, and for many reasons I planned to omit it, firstly because all mouths and tongues are insufficient to relate it, and moreover, because even if there could be found such that would record at least a little from among the multitude of matters, what use would it be, when the entire world was tottering and reaching its dissolution and the length of generations was cut short? And for who would he who wrote be writing?”

Christians and Jews converted to Islam:

  1. Palestinian Muslim men are descendants of Jewish men:

More than 70% of Jewish men and half of the Arab men whose DNA was studied inherited their Y chromosomes from the same paternal ancestors who lived in the region within the last few thousand years.

The results match historical accounts that Moslem Arabs are descended from Christians and Jews who lived in the southern Levant, a region that includes Israel and the Sinai.
http://bric.postech.ac.kr/science/97now/00_10now/001030a.html

  1. Lebanese Muslims are mostly descendants of Christians:

The scientists also found …But they emphasise that the differences between the two communities are minor, and that Christians and Muslim Arabs in Lebanon overwhelmingly share a common heritage.

BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Crusaders ‘left genetic legacy’

  1. Tsunami flood in South East Mediterranean Lebanon/ Israel:

Major Quake, Tsunami Likely in Middle East, Study Finds

  1. Floods in Southern Arabia:

The hydraulics of open channel flow … - Google Book Search

Re: The bible in Islam

Paul taught side by side with the disciples that wrote the bible and actual walked with and witnessed the deeds and words of Jesus. They ate with Him and went every where He did. Paul was certainly no imposter. He was called of God to give the message of salvation to the gentiles. Paul used to persecute God's people, the Christians, but then Jesus revealed Himself to Paul and Paul was called to suffer for Jesus name's sake in order to spread the gospel around the world, so that all men might accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, believing that He died on the cross and rose from the dead for their sins as God's word says.

The authenticity of Muhammad's miracles are provable by evidence collected by secular western scientists, archaeologists, geneticists, botanists and historians etc, as you can read for yourself. You dont have to go to a secret room in hidden places or take my word or the mullahs word or the arabs' word on it. What did Paul ever do that is scientifically provable? He spent his last days hiding in rooms preaching his message. So why believe in him? Where is he described in the OT?

As far as Jesus is concerned, one cannot prove that Jesus performed any miracles except correctly tell us about the coming of Muhammad in Matthew 24. For this reason, there is no Jesus unless there is Muhammad. This is why Paul is not important to us. He becomes even less imporatant to us because the Nazerenes and Ebionite Christian Jews regarded him as an imposter. I hope this clarifies our position on Paul. You are welcome to believe what ever you wish. However, keep in mind that just as you do not find the testimony of Arabs very convincing, we do not find the testimony of Romans convincing either.

regards,

"In several key chronologies, that twenty five to thirty five year period contains many of the narrowest ring sequences known for the past 2,000 years. ... But from 538 or in many places 540 there was an almost universal massive decline lasting between two and eight years. This was particularly marked in the southern hemisphere where, in Chile and Tasmania, for example, full recovery was not achieved until 580s and the 570s respectively."

Here it is worth pointing out that 570 CE is also the time our prophet was born as a mercy to mankind. The clouds would lift, the plague would end and the prophet would render Allah's judgment, Quran in hand on mankind with the armies of the Arabs. These are the things that the Christians and Jews had been told would happen with the coming of the great one as described in the Bible and probably convinced them to accept Muhammad. These converts would have aided the Arabs against Heraclius by the millions. However, the Umayyids (with official mullahs of their courts), the Byzantines (with it's official church fathers) and the Jews (with their official rabbis), none of them saw any value in documenting why millions of followers of the Bible converted to Islam, because enpowering such converts would make the greedy rulers of these nations politically weak and unable to conquer and tax all humanity. So, in a sense, all three nations, Arab, Roman and Jews have disappointed Allah by glorifying themselves, their power and greed rather than Allah the creator of ALL MANKIND. It is the hated secular scientist who truly worships the creator of all mankind.

How cud you beleive that bible is without tahrif.

What bible describes about Ibrahim a.s, could it be befitting of a Prophet. The biblical Abraham, lied that his wife is his sister and gave her to egyption king, he took his wife and son and left them in desert because his first wife was jealous!

Iconolclast,

In my case, finding secular proof for the existence of a universal God was far more important, than defending any notions about what ancient prophets such as Abraham did or did not do, that ultimately leads to belief in a creator that provides no proof for his existence. Therefore, I tend to agree with Imam Bukhari's comment.

As far as laws regarding marriage to sisters is concerned, what we do know is that according to the Bible, incest with one's sister was forbidden by Moses who came a long time after Abraham. As such, Abraham was under a different covenant. It is common knowledge that Egyptian pharoahs had practiced incest to keep "pure blood" in their family. The Roman and Greek Emperors also practiced this form of marriage, up until the days of Jesus. So these were different times than ours and humanity had different values than ours. As such Abraham was, probably, doing nothing unusual for his time.

I personally, believe that Allah started a process of evolution in mankind and according to the degree of evolution in us, Allah changes his covenant with us too. This way it is never too difficult for us to fulfil His requirements. This is the nature of a merciful God. Hence, there was one covenant with humanity in the days of noah. Another in the days of Abraham. A third in the days of Moses. A fourth in the days of Muhammad. We cannot judge those who lived under the first covenant by requirements of the fourth covenant. They were Allah's obedient servants in their time. We have to be his obedient servants in our time. There are similarities and continuations in these covenants, but they are not identical. There is significant evidence that the covenants with Allah have evolved. For example, under the Mosaic covenant people were forbidden from eating camel. It has been permitted under Muhammad's covenant. Under Mosaic covenant kaba was in Jerusalem. Under Muhammad it changed to Mecca. So, for us to point to Abraham and claim he did not follow our covenant is like someone in the days of Moses pointing to us and claiming we are wrong for eating camel.

Re: The bible in Islam

^There are certain fallacies in the arguments that i wud like u to reconsider.

1- Finding a concept of God in bible is hardly a "secular" proof.
2- Belief in God does not come from belief in an Abrahmic religion, non-Abrahmic religion had belief in universal God, with much the same concepts as did Abrahmic religions. Zartashtis had concpet of one God and that of heaven and hell which may well have preceded Judaism.
3- Old texts of Hinduism talk of One God in much the same way as do the early jewish books.
4- Many people beleive in God without beleiving in religion.
5- Most people beleive in God because they cannot understand creation of nature otherwise.
6- God itslef appears very different in 3 Abrahmic religions, a tribal single God in Judaism, who sanctions killing of women, children and even animals of canaanites, as trinity in christianity and as one God agains in Islam.
7-Its much more logical to think that rules in time of Abraham and Moses differed coz they suited the "individuals" following that religion yet were utterly devastating for others, this speaks against the universality of the God you are trying to look for in Judaism. How cud the God be universal if he was only interested in safeguarding interest of one race at peril of others.