^There are certain fallacies in the arguments that i wud like u to reconsider.
1- Finding a concept of God in bible is hardly a "secular" proof.
I value the bible as an ancient text containing religious beliefs of an ancient tribe in the same way as an archaeologist or an historian. I do not blindly consider it the word of any God. I provided some, scientific evidence. Did you read any of it?
^There are certain fallacies in the arguments that i wud like u to reconsider.
7-Its much more logical to think that rules in time of Abraham and Moses differed coz they suited the "individuals" following that religion yet were utterly devastating for others, this speaks against the universality of the God you are trying to look for in Judaism. How cud the God be universal if he was only interested in safeguarding interest of one race at peril of others.
More logical? Finding descriptions of Muhammad in the Bible that probably convinced millions of Christians to accept him as a prophet in the Byzantine Empire is hardly looking for God in Judaism. Blindly accepting any book as a scripture, whether it is the Quran, Gospel or the OT is more akin to Judaism, in my opinion. Which is possibly why Allah allows the Christians and Jews to beat the snot out of the Muslim world these days.
If you are truly a fan of logic, why not start by logically explaining how did a few thousand southern Arabs defeat the massive armies of the Roman Empire with over 10 million Christians? How did they convince millions of Christians to give up their religion, language, national identity (as citizens of the Roman Empire) and take up arms against their own Christian government, kill Christian soldiers, so they could become second class citizens of the Islamic Empire and adopt Orthodox fundamentalist Islam as their religion? I find it hard to believe that our Arabs brothers were capable of doing any such thing since more than a 100 million of them seem to be having an awfully difficult time convincing a few million Jews to adopt Orthodox Islam in Israel. I also dont find any examples of such a thing in modern history, where a small outside minority convinced a large majority to abandon their religion and language and rise up against their army & government to enable the foreign minority to govern them. So how many Arabs would you logically, say, it would take to defeat and rule 10 million Roman Christians and convert them to Orthodox Islam?
It seems far more logical to me to believe that millions of Christains in the Byzantine Empire independently adopted Islam because they saw biblical prophesies being fulfilled that I just described, than anything the Arabs did to convince them. The Arabs, specifically, the Umayyids, it seems to me took no interest in recording why so many Christians accepted Muhammad. They appear to be far more interested in conquering lands, collecting jizya, rejecting Christian conversions to Islam and muzzling any political/ religious parties who could be a threat to their political power and ability to accumulate wealth. This is why I feel it is important to read the Bible to understand why millions of Christians truly convereted to Islam.
Now why don't you logically explain to me how you think a few thousand Arabs compelled millions of Christians in the Byzantine Empire to accept Orthodox Islam, defeat the Roman Christian Armies to enable a few thousand Southern Arabs to govern them?
I value the bible as an ancient text containing religious beliefs of an ancient tribe in the same way as an archaeologist or an historian. I do not blindly consider it the word of any God. I provided some, scientific evidence. Did you read any of it?
Good, thats what i have been trying to say all along. Its absolutely fine to examine it like hisorians do, keeping in perspective the people who wrote it and their needs and actions at the time it was written.
More logical? Finding descriptions of Muhammad in the Bible that probably convinced millions of Christians to accept him as a prophet in the Byzantine Empire is hardly looking for God in Judaism. Blindly accepting any book as a scripture, whether it is the Quran, Gospel or the OT is more akin to Judaism, in my opinion. Which is possibly why Allah allows the Christians and Jews to beat the snot out of the Muslim world these days.
If you are truly a fan of logic, why not start by logically explaining how did a few thousand southern Arabs defeat the massive armies of the Roman Empire with over 10 million Christians? How did they convince millions of Christians to give up their religion, language, national identity (as citizens of the Roman Empire) and take up arms against their own Christian government, kill Christian soldiers, so they could become second class citizens of the Islamic Empire and adopt Orthodox fundamentalist Islam as their religion? I find it hard to believe that our Arabs brothers were capable of doing any such thing since more than a 100 million of them seem to be having an awfully difficult time convincing a few million Jews to adopt Orthodox Islam in Israel. I also dont find any examples of such a thing in modern history, where a small outside minority convinced a large majority to abandon their religion and language and rise up against their army & government to enable the foreign minority to govern them. So how many Arabs would you logically, say, it would take to defeat and rule 10 million Roman Christians and convert them to Orthodox Islam?
It seems far more logical to me to believe that millions of Christains in the Byzantine Empire independently adopted Islam because they saw biblical prophesies being fulfilled that I just described, than anything the Arabs did to convince them. The Arabs, specifically, the Umayyids, it seems to me took no interest in recording why so many Christians accepted Muhammad. They appear to be far more interested in conquering lands, collecting jizya, rejecting Christian conversions to Islam and muzzling any political/ religious parties who could be a threat to their political power and ability to accumulate wealth. This is why I feel it is important to read the Bible to understand why millions of Christians truly convereted to Islam.
Now why don't you logically explain to me how you think a few thousand Arabs compelled millions of Christians in the Byzantine Empire to accept Orthodox Islam, defeat the Roman Christian Armies to enable a few thousand Southern Arabs to govern them?
Again i will tend to disagree.
Mass conversions as seen in earlier days of Islam do not occur bcoz of logical acceptance of one religion and rejecting fallacies of others. Very few people actually do that. Mass conversions occur when a group of people are impressed by culture/civilization of another group or when there are social and economic benefits of conversion. Look at history of any religion, you will find the same story, their followings rapidly increased when they were sponsored by state.
Secondly, whatever your religious beliefs, try not to have a skewed view of history like u seem to have fixed opinion of ummayyads. Ummayyads were not any better nor worse than any ruling family in Islamic history, for that matter like Fatmids of egypt.
Re: The bible in Islam
Iconoclast, you seem to be suggesting that mass conversions occur when
A group of people are impressed by culture/civilization of another group.
When there are social and economic benefits of conversion.
When they (Religions) were sponsored by state.
In the case of Arab invasion of Byzantium,
To 3. This is true. Once a king or ruler adopts a religion the citizens may follow. The Byzantine State, however, was headed by the Christian Emperor Heraclius. He did not convert. So this is not why the Christians would have aided the Muslim Arab invaders defeat the Christian State & army or adopt the language and religion of the invaders.
To 1 & 2. There were no economic and social benefits of becoming a Muslim in the Byzantine Empire. Infact, aiding a foreign Arab invasion and killing Christian troops in an uprising against the Byzantine Empire probably resulted in death. There are no economic or social benefits to being a traitor in any socieity. So, this too could not be a reason for Byzantine Christians to aid the Muslim Arab invaders defeat the Christian State and Army or adopt their language and religion.
As far as being impressed by another nation is concerned, I thought you were trying to be reasonable and logical- an iconoclast? Did you ever see the Hindu nation adopt Christianity and English, after becoming impressed by the British, when the Bristish ruled India? Did you see the Chinese adopt English and convert to Christiainity? Did the North Africans and Middle Eastern Muslim nations adopt French or Italian and convert to Christianity? Have the Palestinians adopted Judaism? Did the Hindu adopt Islam after being impressed by the Mughals? The answer is always a no. Like I said before, we have seen the inability of 100 million Arabs to change the mind of a few million Jews in Israel, so it is hard to believe that a few thousand fundamentalist Arabs changed the minds of millions of Christians. Where have you seen inhabitants of a great and powerful nation impressed by a weak and small foreign nation, rapidly changing their religion and language, fighting against their own army, overthrowing their own government to help that weak foreign nation take political control over themselves?
Bob
Like I said, "I also dont find any examples of such a thing in modern history, where a small outside minority convinced a large majority to abandon their religion and language, and rise up against their army & government to enable a foreign minority to govern them."
Secondly, whatever your religious beliefs, try not to have a skewed view of history like u seem to have fixed opinion of ummayyads. Ummayyads were not any better nor worse than any ruling family in Islamic history, for that matter like Fatmids of egypt.
Anyone can read message 12 and see I do not just blame the Umayyids. It is funny you would think that. As far as skewing history is concerned, I think msg 25 adequately demonstrates which one of us has a view of history based in fairytales and mythology and which one of us has a view of history based in reality common sense and reason. What you are describing happens about as frequently as a fat man with a white beard and a red suit coming down a chimney to give presents to all the good children in the world.