WOW, what a statement!
So, “Usul Kafi: 1:416” is ‘irrelevant material’?
Sources, which have been provided, why don’t you refute that? You would, if you had knowledge of them and your other holy books. But for now, you can only think of coming up with smart ass statements to weight up your weak argument.
YAar I already explained our belief on the completeion of the Quran, why being in denial?you still dun belive me?..its now upto you..I tried my best
just a quick note most of the usul kaafi statement as given by daniyal are out of context ,I’m sure there are more explanations to it OR it could be weak..
why would we listen to some scholars when Allah himself promised to protect the Quran???
and yeah our Holy Book is Quran and no book can be compared with Quran
interestingly, WHY do you guys seem to weigh USul Kafi more than Quran for us?I think we are the one to decide
answer this..
[quote]
Originally posted by sherrybaba:
** interestingly, WHY do you guys seem to weigh USul Kafi more than Quran for us?I think we are the one to decide
answer this..
**
[/quote]
Yes, this is based on the decisions and statements of your leading scholars. Alrite ????
Since you get rewarded for lying in your religion, you have no qualms or reservations about lying. So you lie freely whenever and wherever.
check out the taqayyah section..maybe we can discuss about my lies there..
okay one last question for you guys , its just a survey
Do you guys still think that we believe the Quran is incomplete after me stating the real facts?
I dun care if you dun agree with other issues..lets just stick to Quran only
Serial?
Khoon?
Sherry, your holy books say quran is not complete, you are saying it is complete. Which is right and which is wrong, you or your holy books(unless you are practicing taqiyaa)?
Quran is complete and nonsense that usul kafi contains about quran being not complete is absurd and big LIE! Right?
[This message has been edited by Serial Guppy (edited May 02, 2002).]
lil frustration eh serial..I can sense…seems like I’m not only one with weak arguments
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif
I ddint expect that from you.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Serial Guppy:
**
Sherry, your holy books say quran is not complete, you are saying it is complete. Which is right and which is wrong, you or your holy books(unless you are practicing taqiyaa)?
**
ooh now its ME VS MY HOLY BOOks..
hello I gave the references from the holy books..I’m not making it up, I aint a scholar
the reference you guys came up with are from your “NON BIAS” sites , you dont have the usul kaafi book , obvioulsy I will question the authencity of your claim, consdering most of the usul kaafi have been taken out of context and its not complete.
My references are 100% accurate and I challenge you to prove my references wrong !
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Serial Guppy:
**
Quran is complete and nonsense that usul kafi contains about quran being not complete is absurd and big LIE! Right?
**
nonsene is from yer side…rule of thumb, throw that stuff that clearly contradicts quran. It could be a weeeeak tradition(tired of saying it)
We will never deny Allah’s word no matter what, get that into your mind, whatever your “non bias” and “fair” site says about usul kaafi doesnt meaan anything, even if its true , I’m sure nobody will follow it
As far taqayyah concerns I nicely explained to you ..
*lil frustration eh serial..I can sense…seems like I’m not only one with weak arguments
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif
I ddint expect that from you.*
[li]It seems, you are throwing back what we observed about you. [/li]
*ooh now its ME VS MY HOLY BOOks..
hello I gave the references from the holy books..I’m not making it up, I aint a scholar
the reference you guys came up with are from your “NON BIAS” sites , you dont have the usul kaafi book , obvioulsy I will question the authencity of your claim, consdering most of the usul kaafi have been taken out of context and its not complete.*
[li]Well? That is why we posted them so you can refute, but so far you have been whining and crying about why are we bring these issues up!!! That is why, instead of taking a stand on the issue, I questioned you. [/li]
My references are 100% accurate and I challenge you to prove my references wrong !
[li]Challenge? You are not even position to challenge, wake up. The references we gave, and references you gave are from the same book(s), meaning shite books are not reliable because they contain too many contradictions between them, forget about what kind of contradictions they have about quran![/li]
nonsene is from yer side…rule of thumb, throw that stuff that clearly contradicts quran. It could be a weeeeak tradition(tired of saying it)
[li]Prove it, otherwise, stop making weak statements, which only hurt and weaken your argument further. “Rule of the thumb,” what is that? I just wrote this: The references we gave, and references you gave are from the same book(s), meaning shite books are not reliable because they contain too many contradictions between them, forget about what kind of contradictions they have about quran![/li]Talk about taking faults out of our books and don’t even want to see/discuss the contradictions and irregularities in your own? Time to look down deep in your gire-baan.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif
We will never deny Allah’s word no matter what, get that into your mind, whatever your “non bias” and “fair” site says about usul kaafi doesnt meaan anything, even if its true , I’m sure nobody will follow it.
[li]Who said you deny allah’s word? You would never do that, that would make your argument even more weak than it already is! The issue is shia’s belief about quran not being complete… not whether they deny the words or not. HELLO are we discussing the same topic here?[/li]
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[This message has been edited by Serial Guppy (edited May 02, 2002).]
[quote]
Sherry, your holy books say quran is not complete, you are saying it is complete. Which is right and which is wrong, you or your holy books(unless you are practicing taqiyaa)?
[/quote]
Serial beta.. before attacking other's 'holy books' take a look at what yours says:
Bukhari - Volume 9, Book 92, Number 468:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
When the time of the death of the Prophet approached while there were some men in the house, and among them was 'Umar bin Al-Khatttab, the Prophet said, "Come near let me write for you a writing after which you will never go astray." 'Umar said, "The Prophet is seriously ill, and you have the Quran, so Allah's Book is sufficient for us." The people in the house differed and disputed. Some of them said, "Come near so that Allah's Apostle may write for you a writing after which you will not go astray," while some of them said what 'Umar said. When they made much noise and differed greatly before the Prophet, he said to them, "Go away and leave me." Ibn 'Abbas used to say, "It was a great disaster that their difference and noise prevented Allah's Apostle from writing that writing for them.
Now tell me again Cereal, why don't you follow Umar?? wasn't he the rightly guided one??
do you have anything BUT contradictions in your beliefs and your 'holy' books??
[This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited May 02, 2002).]
Serial beta.. before attacking other’s ‘holy books’ take a look at what yours says:
[li]I did not “attack” his books. Only stated the obvious question, which you might have missed(as always)! Go read what you quoted from my reply again![/li]
*Bukhari - Volume 9, Book 92, Number 468:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
When the time of the death of the Prophet approached while there were some men in the house, and among them was 'Umar bin Al-Khatttab, the Prophet said, “Come near let me write for you a writing after which you will never go astray.” 'Umar said, “The Prophet is seriously ill, and you have the Quran, so Allah’s Book is sufficient for us.” The people in the house differed and disputed. Some of them said, “Come near so that Allah’s Apostle may write for you a writing after which you will not go astray,” while some of them said what 'Umar said. When they made much noise and differed greatly before the Prophet, he said to them, “Go away and leave me.” Ibn 'Abbas used to say, "It was a great disaster that their difference and noise prevented Allah’s Apostle from writing that writing for them.
Now tell me again Cereal, why don’t you follow Umar?? wasn’t he the rightly guided one??*
[li]Even umar followed Quran and WAY of the prophet, then why should we follow him? Or do you want to say that WE FOLLOW HIM and that is what you are criticising? Wouldn’t you want to.[/li]
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif
do you have anything BUT contradictions in your beliefs and your ‘holy’ books??
[li] YOU and heretics in your cult would want people to believe that, but you have never refuted our books. Saying that some book has contradictions is nothing and does not add any weight to your argument unless you can prove that with facts, like we did with usul kafi(gave references, etc and then shia claims totally different approach..) and other shia books. [/li]
Another one of your heedless attempt to defame “evil sunnah” put in its place and gone astray. Next time, straighten up your facts(if u had any) and KNOW THE TOPIC of discussion before jumping in like a frustrated monkey.
Rashid Khilafa/ghulam ahmed perviez left your religion and track of thought process incomplete, maybe its time to let go of the creed these 1980s heretics introduced and follow way of the prophet, the way of quran and they way of Allah(one way).
Anyway, back to the topic being discussed, which I think is finished! Next time sahi.
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
** Now tell me again Cereal, why don't you follow Umar?? wasn't he the rightly guided one??
do you have anything BUT contradictions in your beliefs and your 'holy' books??
**
[/quote]
I didn't get it. What are you trying to say ???
[quote]
Originally posted by Khoon-e-Shaheed:
** I didn't get it. What are you trying to say ???
**
[/quote]
He is just trying to put words in our mouth...(you know, trying to come up with something so that he can sit there and laugh... after that humilation in other thread and how he came up with prayer from quran using conjectures...etc.)umar followed quran and sunnah of Prophet, so do we.
One should ask him, why DO you follow people like Rashid Khilafa and Ghulam Ahmed Perviez?
[quote]
Originally posted by Adbulmalick:
** QUESTION:
The fiqh that you belong to - Is it based on quran or sunnah?
Are you an AHLE Sunnah(4 sunni Fiqhs) or AHLE Hadeeth(Wahabi/Salafis)?
The Four Sunni Fiqhs & the wahabi practise are based on the sunnah (hadeeths) and NOT the Quran.
**
[/quote]
Again, your typical ** Shia whining and lies. **
** WHY DO YOU * SHIAS * DESPERATELY WANT TO DIVIDE US ????
WHY CAN'T YOU SEE US UNITED ?? **
There's no such thing as a "Wahhabi". If it is, then define "Wahhabism".
You Shias have been badly discredited before on this forum, for not being able to define the "Wahhabis".
If the "Wahhabis" truly are a different group, why don't they call themselves that ?? Why don't they ask other people to convert to "Wahhabism" and start calling themselves "Wahhabis".
It is very strange that the ** Shias claim ** that there's a group of people known as "Wahhabis" ** but that group ("Wahhabi" )has NO SENSE of IDENTITY ** , and does not form any elitist groups or associations, or try to convince people to start calling themselves "Wahhabis".
We Muslims do not divide ourselves into 4 different groups, nor do we ask others to stay aloof from the different schools of thoughts, or to consider ourselves different from them. ** The differences are hardly noticeable, and they are not differences in beliefs. **
We do ** NOT have any IDENTITY ISSUES ** with the 4 Schools of Thoughts. In fact, how many people do you know who rigidly follow one school of thought, without mixing it with another school of thought???
** QUIT DIVIDING THE MAINSTREAM MUSLIMS. DON'T YOU SHIAS HAVE ANYTHING BETTER TO DO ??? **
[quote]
Originally posted by Serial Guppy:
Even umar followed Quran and WAY of the prophet
[/quote]
oh excellent comprehension skills.. I'm amazed at how from "so Allah's Book is enough for us" you get the WAY of the Prophet just because it suits your fancy?
btw, how's your imam OBL??
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
** oh excellent comprehension skills.. I'm amazed at how from "so Allah's Book is enough for us" you get the WAY of the Prophet just because it suits your fancy?
**
[/quote]
He WAS a SAHABAA, a COMPANION OF THE PROPHET. He didn't need to say way of the prophet because he had seen, and learnt everything about islam from the Prophet! WAKE UP, and stop twisting little things into something which you think might make your argument a little heavy!
You should be ashamed at Rashid Khilafa/Ghulam Ahmed Perviez for introducing this ridiculous creed that way of the prophet is not needed! Go cry over their grave for the humiliation you are facing here today! Again and again, you try to bring up the point and again and again you are slapped right back at your place.
They created nothing but fitna and you are FOLLOWING it. NICE!
AND WHEN IT IS SAID TO THEM: "DO NOT MAKE MISCHIEF ON THE EARTH", THEY SAY "WE ARE ONLY PEACE-MAKERS" VERILY, THEY ARE THE ONES WHO MAKES MISCHIEF, BUT THEY PERCEIVE NOT"-[Qur'an-2:11-12]
I'm surprised that this thread is not being closed yet.
One of the more useless threads currently on this forum leading to nothing more than strife and hatred.
I don't see the one who opened this thread contributing much. This should shed light on those who chose to bicker and accuse others with the true intention of this thread.
A Wizard arrives neither early nor late, but precisely when he chooses to
[quote]
Originally posted by Adbulmalick:
**FlameZz
And, why shouldn't they?
'Ali is CENTRAL to shia faith
much like
BUKHARI & his hadeeths are to yours.
**
[/quote]
And perhaps one day, this will lead to new concept of worshipping hazrat ALI (RAZ) ????
comon this is pure ignorance...
.::. ﷲ ﻼﺃ ﷲﺃ ﻶ .::.
Allah-o-Akbar
,_ ,
(O,O)
()
-"--"--- To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first, and call whatever you hit the target
[quote]
Originally posted by Serial Guppy:
*Sherry, your holy books say quran is not complete, you are saying it is complete. Which is right and which is wrong, you or your holy books(unless you are practicing taqiyaa)?
*
[/quote]
Hazrat Umar [reportedly] Said Chapter 33 Is Incomplete:
al-Muttaqi Ali Ibn Husam al-Din in his book ( Mukhtasar Kanz al-Ummal,
printed on the margin of Imam Ahmed's Musnad, v2, p2 ) in his Hadith about
chapter 33, that said Ibn Mardawayh
reported that Huthaifah said:
Umar said to me : How many verses are contained in the Chapter al-Ahzab ? I said 72 ( seventy two ) or 73 ( seventy three ) verses. He said : It was almost as long as the chapter of the Cow, which contains 287 ( two eighty seven ) verses, and
in it there was the verse of stoning.
Al-Bukhari recorded in his Sahih, v8, pp 209-210, that Ibn Abbas reported that Hazrat Umar Ibn al-Khattab said the following in a discourse which he delivered during the last years of the caliphate.
*(For Arabic-English version of Sahih al-Bukhari see 8.817
When Umar performed his last Hajj, he said: Certainly Allah sent Muhammad with the truth and revealed him the Book. One of the revelations which came to him was the verse of stoning. We read it and understood it.
The Messenger of God stoned and we stoned after him. I am concerned that if time goes on, some one may say ' By God
we do not find the verse of stoning in the Book of God '; thus, the Muslims will deviate by neglecting a commandment the Almighty revealed.
Again, we used to read in what we found in the Book of God : Do not deny the fatherhood of your fathers in contempt
because it is a disbelief on your part to be ashamed of your fathers.
More references of similar tradition:
- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal (in the Musnad of Umar under the caption the Hadith al-Saqeefah, pp 47,55)
- Sirah of Ibn Hisham (Pub. by Issa al-Babi al-Halabi of Egypt 1955),
v2, p658
Please also note that the above verse which was recited by Umar in the
above tradition, is not in present Quran.
Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English version, vol 9, p212:
{Between Traditions 9.281 and 9.282}
'Umar added:
If I were not afraid of the fact that people may say that 'Umar has added to the Quran extra (verses), I would have written the Verse al-Rajm (stoning to death of married adulterers) with my own hands.
[This message has been edited by hello hello (edited May 02, 2002).]
Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 6.514:
-------
Narrated 'Hazrat Umar bin al-Khattab:
I heard Hisham bin Hakim reciting Surat al-Furqan during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle and I listened to his recitation and noticed that he recited in several different ways which Allah's Apostle had not taught me. I was about to jump over him during his prayer, but I controlled my temper, and when he had completed his prayer, I put his upper garment around his neck and seized him by it and said, "Who taught you this Surah which I heard you reciting?" He replied, "Allah's Apostle taught it to me." I said, "You have told a lie, for Allah's Apostle has taught it to me in a different way from yours." So I dragged him to Allah's Apostle and said (to Allah's Apostle),
"I heard this person reciting Surat al-Furqan in a way which you haven't taught me!" On that Allah's Apostle said, "Release him, (O'Umar!) Recite, O Hisham!" Then he recited in the same way as I heard him reciting. Then Allah's Apostle said, "It was revealed in this way," and added, "Recite, O 'Umar!" I recited it as he had taught me.
Allah's Apostle then said, "It was revealed in this way. This Quran has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways, so recite of it whichever (way) is easier for you (or read as much of it as may be easy for you)."