The Balkanization of Pakistan

Re: The Balkanization of Pakistan

Dear Yazdi, don't be pessimistic. I think we are seeing the twilight of Pakistan's gloom. If this Republic survives this storm and I think it will, I think we will emerge as a truly great nation (atleast by 3rd world standards). The chief Justice of Pakistan, the journalists and NGOs and upstanding politicians such as Imran Khan, Aitzaz Ahsan, Roedad Khan among others, civil society are to me signs of a young society making a breakthrough in its conscience.

You are speaking of emulating a closed efficient and brutal system. Because that's what China is. In any event we are no stranger to the system. We are no stranger to it at all. Even in our neighborhood we have seen examples of that system in Iran, Saudi, Afghanistan. This will and should not sit well with Pakistanis. We have known better. And abstractly, our founding fathers have left us with a sense of right and wrong that going towards an efficient system would be disastrous t the nation.

Yes, we saw the dark side of a population in chaos and anarchy in some cities and areas of Pakistan. But there is a sublime message under it to the rulers and the establishment.

Don't forget that when the century's worst disaster hit northern Pakistan in 2005, we also saw the best of us. No rapes, anarchy, chaos, stealing and mad mobs anywhere. People helping people, neighbors coming out, prayers and charity from all quarters of the nation. It was one moment we could be proud of, how the nation acted under that extreme disaster. Unlike New Orleans in the world's most powerful nation.

Re: The Balkanization of Pakistan

If Khekashan is a she, then that has to be the most masculine "she" to come out of Karachi since Begum Nawazish Ali. :)

Re: The Balkanization of Pakistan

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/18/opinion/18kagan.html?_r=3&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Pakistan’s Collapse, Our Problem
By FREDERICK W. KAGAN and MICHAEL O’HANLON
Published: November 18, 2007
Washington

AS the government of Pakistan totters, we must face a fact: the United States simply could not stand by as a nuclear-armed Pakistan descended into the abyss. Nor would it be strategically prudent to withdraw our forces from an improving situation in Iraq to cope with a deteriorating one in Pakistan. We need to think — now — about our feasible military options in Pakistan, should it really come to that.

We do not intend to be fear mongers. Pakistan’s officer corps and ruling elites remain largely moderate and more interested in building a strong, modern state than in exporting terrorism or nuclear weapons to the highest bidder. But then again, Americans felt similarly about the shah’s regime in Iran until it was too late.

Moreover, Pakistan’s intelligence services contain enough sympathizers and supporters of the Afghan Taliban, and enough nationalists bent on seizing the disputed province of Kashmir from India, that there are grounds for real worries.

The most likely possible dangers are these: a complete collapse of Pakistani government rule that allows an extreme Islamist movement to fill the vacuum; a total loss of federal control over outlying provinces, which splinter along ethnic and tribal lines; or a struggle within the Pakistani military in which the minority sympathetic to the Taliban and Al Qaeda try to establish Pakistan as a state sponsor of terrorism.
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All possible military initiatives to avoid those possibilities are daunting. With 160 million people, Pakistan is more than five times the size of Iraq. It would take a long time to move large numbers of American forces halfway across the world. And unless we had precise information about the location of all of Pakistan’s nuclear weapons and materials, we could not rely on bombing or using Special Forces to destroy them.

The task of stabilizing a collapsed Pakistan is beyond the means of the United States and its allies. Rule-of-thumb estimates suggest that a force of more than a million troops would be required for a country of this size. Thus, if we have any hope of success, we would have to act before a complete government collapse, and we would need the cooperation of moderate Pakistani forces.

One possible plan would be a Special Forces operation with the limited goal of preventing Pakistan’s nuclear materials and warheads from getting into the wrong hands. Given the degree to which Pakistani nationalists cherish these assets, it is unlikely the United States would get permission to destroy them. Somehow, American forces would have to team with Pakistanis to secure critical sites and possibly to move the material to a safer place.

For the United States, the safest bet would be shipping the material to someplace like New Mexico; but even pro-American Pakistanis would be unlikely to cooperate. More likely, we would have to settle for establishing a remote redoubt within Pakistan, with the nuclear technology guarded by elite Pakistani forces backed up (and watched over) by crack international troops. It is realistic to think that such a mission might be undertaken within days of a decision to act. The price for rapid action and secrecy, however, would probably be a very small international coalition.

A second, broader option would involve supporting the core of the Pakistani armed forces as they sought to hold the country together in the face of an ineffective government, seceding border regions and Al Qaeda and Taliban assassination attempts against the leadership. This would require a sizable combat force — not only from the United States, but ideally also other Western powers and moderate Muslim nations.

Even if we were not so committed in Iraq and Afghanistan, Western powers would need months to get the troops there. Fortunately, given the longstanding effectiveness of Pakistan’s security forces, any process of state decline probably would be gradual, giving us the time to act.

So, if we got a large number of troops into the country, what would they do? The most likely directive would be to help Pakistan’s military and security forces hold the country’s center — primarily the region around the capital, Islamabad, and the populous areas like Punjab Province to its south.

We would also have to be wary of internecine warfare within the Pakistani security forces. Pro-American moderates could well win a fight against extremist sympathizers on their own. But they might need help if splinter forces or radical Islamists took control of parts of the country containing crucial nuclear materials. The task of retaking any such regions and reclaiming custody of any nuclear weapons would be a priority for our troops.

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If a holding operation in the nation’s center was successful, we would probably then seek to establish order in the parts of Pakistan where extremists operate. Beyond propping up the state, this would benefit American efforts in Afghanistan by depriving terrorists of the sanctuaries they have long enjoyed in Pakistan’s tribal and frontier regions.

The great paradox of the post-cold war world is that we are both safer, day to day, and in greater peril than before. There was a time when volatility in places like Pakistan was mostly a humanitarian worry; today it is as much a threat to our basic security as Soviet tanks once were. We must be militarily and diplomatically prepared to keep ourselves safe in such a world. Pakistan may be the next big test.

Frederick W. Kagan is a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute. Michael O’Hanlon is a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution.

Re: The Balkanization of Pakistan

How pathetic the country has become, that now we have to consdier such things as a US invasion of Pak seriously! :rolleyes:

Re: The Balkanization of Pakistan

Why do anti-Pakistan Ethnic nationalists assume the country will splt in 4 provinces. The provinces do not relfect ethnic lines overall and there are many minorities in each province.

Take for example Punjab - a significant portion of Punjab is Seraiki ie multan, bahawalpur, rahim yar khan, d g khan, bhakkar, mianwali, bahawalpur, bahawalnagar.
Then there are the Pahari/Potohari areas of Chakwal, Pindi, Murree, Attock, Talagang, Khushab.

Then with Sindh you have the majority being Sindhi but a large portion being Urdu speaking of Indian origin. You have Tharis, Balochis, Kutchies, Gujaratis too.

Balochistan has a Mekrani belt, Brahui, Pashtun not Just Balochi. Not even 50% of the province is wat its named after.

Nwfp is predominantly pashtun but a large number speak hindko in peshawar, hazara. A lo to people in d i khan speak seraiki and both chitral and kohistan are also non-pashtun.

The northern areas has a shena, burushahski, wakhi speaking people.

Azad kashmir probably is dominated by pahari/Kashmiri speakers iover most of the province.

Nationalists have to take into account that there the country might not be split into 4 but much more - surely they would give the right to minorities to join them or not?

And how would control of the Indus be divided? If there are going to be 5 states then the indians might want to do something with the indus upstream. As it passes through Gilgit and Kohisan they may want to do something with it and they could probably dam it too. As the Indus enters what was NWFP the pashtun belt will be to the west and hazara which will probably be more willing to join onto punjab will be to the east. If Hazara sticks to the pashtun belt then of course they could have some control of the indus at terbela. What would happen to terbela if hazara decided not to stick with NWFP? The Indus would be a dispute for Punjab and a Pashtunistan.

But further downstream the Seraikis and Sindhis whose lands the Indus also passes through will not be very happy if any projects on the Indus happen upstream.

The Inds would be one of te many worries that will have to be solved.

Re: The Balkanization of Pakistan

Thats why a lot of the ethnic tensions ring so hollow... There are so many grey areas, yet people think Punjab is just this great big homogenous thing or that NWFP is just this great big conservative pile Taliban...

Pakistan as country is so much more dynamic then these ethnic nationalist types want us to think.

Re: The Balkanization of Pakistan

Sindh and Balochista would have access to the sea while Punjab and NWFP will be landlocked. Sindh and Punja are the most fertile and developed agriculturally.

NWFP will form the smallest country Paashtunistan and will probably be the most undeveloped of the lot. it could join Afghanistan eventually or remain independent. Its luck would depend upon Hazara joining it which under a referndum I guess hazara would rather join Punjab. If they did join Punjab then the control of the Indus would be in neither hands. If Hazara stays with Pashtunistan then the Indus is under theircontrol and have elecricity. Im sure Hazara would only sta with the Pashtun belt if thelanguage and name was compromised upon.

Balochistan could see a boom and would be able to exploit land locked afghanistan and the new pashtunistan - although how would balochistan find labour if its economy ever took off?

It could be that the pashtun areas of NWFP join afghanistan or punjab becomes a part of India or even both - how would the states react to each other then? A newly extended afghanistan and india meeting at the indus woul ruin their love affair and they would hate each other surely.

How would sindh cope with India? how would balochistan cope with afghanisatn to the north and iran to the west? a newly formed pashtunista could be invdaded by afghanistan and a punjab could be invaded by india.

The splitting of Pakistan would create a lot of problems and a lot of opportunities.

Re: The Balkanization of Pakistan

cuting up pakisan would be worse than dividing india? blood would be shed everywhere.

  1. pashtuns are settled in large numbers throughtout pakistan - 4 million in karachi, must be a few million more in sindh, 1 million in lahore, im sure 25% of pindi is pashtun, there are many more millions of pashtuns in punjab - ptobably 10 million have migrated elsewhere easily from Khunjerab to Karachi. a split in pakistan would badly affect pashtuns short term wise - minorities will be massacred wherever they are and those that go bac will go back to a land of no jobs as development there was ignored

  2. balochistan consisting of balochi parts could benefit. there are not as many baloch leaving their land for other areas. with a fair and good government they would move quickly ahead. however if mekranis dont want to join balochistan then it would cause problems. plus balochies and pashtuns share land and they would clash over who takes quetta. pashtuns claim as far south as sibi. quetta city and north of it, zhob, lorallai, ziarat are the pashtun areas. quetta cit is predominantly pashtun and baloch lands start south of it- yet they both claim it.

  3. sindhs border does not really clash with anything but how muc bloodshed would ethnically diverse karachi see? would karchites wantto be a part of sindh?

  4. punjab coulf face trouble in seraiki areas but could benefit from getting hazara - a region which has more in comon with punjab than pashtun areas. punjabis are also scattered around the country - how would they be treated after a collapse?

  5. would pashtuns let go of non-pashtun areas ie chitral, hazara, indus kohistan? letting go of hazara and indus kohistan would mean losing some rights to the indus. they could also benefit from joining afghanistan but disputes would probably occur as nwfp would be politically different and the pashtun of pakistan are educationally more developed and the areas in peshawar valley being most fertile - surely this would make the people to the west most envious of them?? would the minimum of 10 million pashtuns working outside of their home areas be sent back and become a huge burden to the area? wil the be absorbed?

Re: The Balkanization of Pakistan

true ethnic nationalists would find themselves in a quandry.

sindh cold have huge problems as the indus could pass through 2/3 countries before reaching sindh.

pashtun nationalists believe the indus river will be theirs - only if hazara agrees to join them and that wil be highly unlikely. the majority of batagram is pashtun the other areas are hindko speaking - although a good number belong to pashtun tribes.

Re: The Balkanization of Pakistan

Excellent post and its good to see there are some people on this board who still think. Where are Zakk, Rajput Fury and Ehsan these days? I always enjoyed reading their posts.

The breakup of Pakistan would see horrific violence somewhat along the lines of what we've seen in Iraq in the last few years. Unfortunately Pakistan has a much larger population and thus the violence would be at least 5 times larger in magnitude.

The area likely to be worst hit is Karachi with the city roughly 40% urdu speaking and a very even split among other ethnicities. I shudder to think of the scale of violence we might see. In other areas you would see similar things, perhaps not the same degree since the hatred you see in Karachi between ethnicities is not present between Punjabis and Pashtuns in Pindi or Lahore, nor is it present between the Hindko speaking and Pashtuns in the Hazara belt. Even in the Seraiki belt things are relatively tame.

Lets all hope and pray things contain themself and calm down.

Unfortunately at this time there is reaosn to fear the worst.

Re: The Balkanization of Pakistan

:k:

I hope you are right and I am wrong…

Re: The Balkanization of Pakistan

You weren’t wrong, these aren’t the brightest of days ya know?

But Pak is our home :jhanda:

Re: The Balkanization of Pakistan

there is no real hatred of Urdu speaking and Pashtuns in Karachi too - there has been clashes but surprisingly it is not ad bad as most people make out. I think if anyone willl resent the urdu spaking community the most it will be Sindhis and udging by their reaction to benazir's murder, - they are not as sleepy as one would think.
most of the people from urdu speaking backgrounds and pashtuns get on - everyhuman s slightly racist deep inside but im pretty much sure its just a portion of the MQM supporters who create this trouble not every on eof them.

But if the country was split then dividing it along ethnic lines is not as easy as people think it would be as some areas are mixed and funnily enough each ethniciity claim these areas. Dividing it provincially would make minorities of othese areas protest and surely truly nationalist people would allow the freedom of choice to these people (unless recent immigrants)