While the war clouds loom large on Iraq, protests are being organized, demonstrations are being held the world over;majority of the reports suggest that ‘Pakistan’ the US ally would face quite a turmoil in case the U.S., decides to attack Iraq. THis post is not really about what will Pakistanis do or as to how they would react in any such case. While various news items bring forth this issue; yet the major issue at hand for which PAkistan has been criticised, albiet mildly is with regard to the policy that we are pursuing in Afghanistan.
In last weeks Wall Street Journal, there was an article by Ahmed Rashid in which he contended that Pakistan despite being an ally is following its own policy in Afghanistan. KArzai, is perplexed at the turn of events. He admires President Musharraf, consider that they have no two views on various issues that inflict and plague Afghanistan and inturn affect PAkistan, yet he fails to comprehend ‘what Pakistan actually wants’.
It seems as if the same drama is being enacted by the countries surrounding Afghanistan that went on the entire decade of the 1990’s. Pakistan is bent upon supporting the pashtun factions in the govenment. Its tacit support/whole hearted support(there is so much ambiguity in this regard) to the PAshtuns residing near the Afghan/ Pakistan border is indeed alarming to many elements in the region. In turn Iran and other Central Asian states are in the same way supporting the Hazara,/Uzbik/Tajik factions in the Afghan society.
This approach by Pakistan has raised many questions. Is PAkistan an honest ally? WHy is PAkistan supporting one faction over the other as opposed to backingup a broadbased government? HAven’t we learned our lesson by supporting the Taliban?
The elements that we give our tacit support to are indeed creating troubles for us as well are a hinderance in the US effort to wipe out the extremists. Our support for such factions would ultimately have a spill over affect in our country. (Infact, we are already facing extremisim and fanaticism due to the policies we pursued in the past). This is indeed a historic opportunity for us to purge all such elements from our society. By suporting such people, don’t u think we are being selfish once again… by abetting such extremists we are once again calling for more troubles.
What should our policy be with regard to Afhanistan?Obviously , we can’t follow a hands off approach that would be extremely naive on our part but then what?
While Pakistan's sympathies might be with Afghan pashtuns, but its not true that Musharraf is supporting any of the factions. The delivery of weapons to Afghan Army is an indication of that. While Pakistan supports Afghan Army, India is arming Fahim's army. So it can be seen clearly, what India wants to achieve inside Afghanistan. India is playing the same role there now, what Pakistan played during the 1990's.
India is providing AID to Faheem's army, and NOT the Afghan Army!
Dil kitna badha hai humara. 
Pakistan donates weapons to Afghan army
ISLAMABAD: Pakistan on Sunday donated a large quantity of arms and ammunition, including machine guns and rockets, to the Afghan government to help it raise its own army, officials said.
The weapons include 5,000 sub machine guns, 180 mortars, 75 rocket propelled grenades launchers and 10,000 mortar bombs. The delivery of weapons is part of Islamabad’s “commitment to support and strengthen the central government including the raising of the national army of Afghanistan”, officials said. Pakistan’s armed forces would also help train Afghan army personnel. Pakistan handed over the weapons to Afghan government officials at ceremony held at PAF Base, Chaklala, in the presence of Afghan Minister Rahmatullah Musaghazi. —AFP/APP
Pakistan was always supplying weapons isn't it ? Now they are doing in the open. That's the difference :)
Now Pak can say they give political, moral and diplomatic 
support to the Afghan army
RIFAK, understandin’ a scenrio is a different thing, commentin’ out another. Donatin’ arms is the part Good Neighbors deal, signed in Kabul, last year along with Russia, CAR’S, China.
Seems like to you we are supplyin’ arms to Afghanistan to harm India.
Another side effect from an Indian side:
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Pakistani Tiger: *
* Pakistan’s armed forces would also help train Afghan army personnel. Pakistan handed over the weapons to Afghan government officials at ceremony held at PAF Base, Chaklala, in the presence of Afghan Minister Rahmatullah Musaghazi. **
[/QUOTE]
I guess this guy may be a Pashtun Tribal leader looking at his name. He is also current or former ambassador to Pakistan . You handed over weapons to some small fry in a ** Pakistani Airforce Base **. Very Good. Yeah baby . Speaks volume about your relationhip with Afghan National Government :D
Poor guy, don’t got sense of humor? Still cluctin’ at straws?
You don’t have to guess it. You don’t have to think. You gotta feel it baby. Rahmatullah Musaghazi, a Pashtun, member of the Afghan Govt i.e Minister, not a current/former Ambassador to Pakistan. Read in between the lines.
Yep, it does speaks volume relationship wtih Afghans i.e National Government aka Hammad Karazai incharge.
Who supports current Govt. and faction, has been said well by zaavia. 
Lost Soul says Pakistan is harming herself by arming Pashtun factions. It was one of the best posts which every Pakistani should agree upon. I will reproduce the points posted by LS
**
"WHy is Pakistan supporting one faction over the other as opposed to backingup a broadbased government? Haven't we learned our lesson by supporting the Taliban?
"This is indeed a historic opportunity for us to purge all such elements from our society. By suporting such people, don't u think we are being selfish once again... by abetting such extremists we are once again calling for more troubles. "
**
PT agreed with me that Pak armed a Pashtun faction leader eventhough title of newspaper article was "Pakistan donates weapons to Afghan army ". Who are they trying to fool ?
What I said was NA people anyway hate Pakistan. Pashtun factions dont care about Pakistan either. When time comes they look at their own tribal affiliations than Paki nationalism means little to them. Look at Baluchi tribes who blow up gas pipelines just for their rivalry. So why the hell Pak is arming them ?
In case of India or Iran they remote control events sitting comfortably in teheran or Delhi. Not even one Indian or one Irni will die. It is poor Pakis on streets who get affected. Fahim represents Afghan Government atleast he is authority. Just because Punjabis are more in Paki army does not make it Punjabi army, isnt it ?
You believed every word of Lost Soul? Okay, why you havin’ problem understandin’ what I’m sayin’?
You’re makin’ yourself a big fool. Donation of weapons was w.r.t to Good Neighbor deal, signed in Kabul last year. Get it? Donation was given to Afghan Army, which will be ready in comin’ Summer season.
Correct. So as NA master aka India.
Yes, they do.
Pashtuns love Pakistan. Forget the super star welcome of Nehru by Pashtuns?
Mixin’ apple with oranges, RIFAK? Pakistan is not armin’ any tribals. They have got weapons from Cold War era when Russian left Afghanistan without takin’ their forces dead bodies, and a great deal of weapons.
How sure are you about that?
Rightnow, all I can see poor Indians gettin’ affect. 
WRONG. Hammad Karzai represents Afghan Government.
Another lack of GK. Who told you that Punjabis are more in Pakistan Army?
Aah jatay hain patha nahi kahan kahan say. 
Rifak, it may best for you to stick with countries that India shares a borders with-- oh thats right, India has problems with every country in South Asia, not to forget China.
NA, the folks that Indians have supported, controlled only 5% of Afghanistan up till 9/11. With the US stepping in for their interests, saw the NA (an already decayed and spent force) rise up to overtake the Taliban. If it wasn't for the American daisy cutters raining down on Al-Qaudia and their awkward allies, the Taliban, NA couldn't have done squat. Just a refresher, the Northern Alliance was supported by Russia, India, Turkey, France & the CARs, and the Talibs had only Pakistan. What happened on the ground? despite a multitude of support enjoyed by the NA, they could not even hold Mazar-E-Sharif (so called heart of the Tajik faction). They were relegated to the Panjshir valley, do you know about the Panjshir valley? It is one of the most fortified and well guarded parts of Afghanistan..this is the same place where Masood had been cowardly holed up when the Soviets invaded.
Afghanistan is a pashtun country, the NA speaks for the minority. Why don't we all wait till the US attention is diverted and Karzai govt falls, Pashtuns will rise up once again. Time, history is on our side. Many Indians talk the talk but come a man to man challenge, we all know what happens..
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by RajputFury: *
Rifak, it may best for you to stick with countries that India shares a borders with-- oh thats right, India has problems with every country in South Asia, not to forget China.
NA, the folks that Indians have supported, controlled only 5% of Afghanistan up till 9/11. With the US stepping in for their interests, saw the NA (an already decayed and spent force) rise up to overtake the Taliban. If it wasn't for the American daisy cutters raining down on Al-Qaudia and their awkward allies, the Taliban, NA couldn't have done squat. Just a refresher, the Northern Alliance was supported by Russia, India, Turkey, France & the CARs, and the Talibs had only Pakistan. What happened on the ground? despite a multitude of support enjoyed by the NA, they could not even hold Mazar-E-Sharif (so called heart of the Tajik faction). They were relegated to the Panjshir valley, do you know about the Panjshir valley? It is one of the most fortified and well guarded parts of Afghanistan..this is the same place where Masood had been cowardly holed up when the Soviets invaded.
Afghanistan is a pashtun country, the NA speaks for the minority. Why don't we all wait till the US attention is diverted and Karzai govt falls, Pashtuns will rise up once again. Time, history is on our side. Many Indians talk the talk but come a man to man challenge, we all know what happens..
[/QUOTE]
Let the Russia, India, Turkey, France & the CARs give all the support they want to NA, its not gonna change anything anyway, sooner or later the Pakistani backed pashtuns will destroy NA and take over Afghanistan. Anyway Pakistan is proud to have supported the Telibans. Can you Indians say that? Do you know what Talibans was all about? No you don't. So keep quiet.
Sour grapes?
And Taliban couldn’t have done didly withoit ISI providing arms and manpower in a scale unheard of in modern times.
Russia - fine. India - okay. Turkey,France, CARs? Must be high on something.
Ahmed Shah Masood is a coward? Only Pakistanis called him a coward. See all the western journos who went to Afghanistan describe him as a valiant commander. That is why the ISI got him killed by using their Al Qaeda buddies.
Yes Yes. Wait till the Pakthuns question the Durand line. :biggthumb
Well, I wouldn’t say that coming from a place which has been failing to take Kashmir for 55 years…
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Talwar: *
...Ahmed Shah Masood is a coward? Only Pakistanis called him a coward. See all the western journos who went to Afghanistan describe him as a valiant commander. That is why the ISI got him killed by using their Al Qaeda buddies. ....
[/QUOTE]
You are dreaming again dude, the whole world knows that Ahmed Shah Masood was a coward and traitor to the Afghan people. And don't blame ISI or Pakistan for his death just because he was called a coward in Pakistan.
Ify, no need to argue with Indians. I showed them hard time yesterday, remember? All they can do is cut/paste Goras' articles and when proven wrong, won't reply. :)
** Sour grapes? :hehe: **
What sour grapes? Every country that has known India in terms of sharing a history, hates it. Are you denying that?
**
And Taliban couldn’t have done didly withoit ISI providing arms and manpower in a scale unheard of in modern times.
**
Not denying ISI- Pak. military involvement. However, you fail to recognize the Pashtun-- the majority, support for the Talibs.
**
Russia - fine. India - okay. Turkey,France, CARs? :hehe: Must be high on something. **
First of all, I woul like to remind you that you keep this discussion away from personal attacks. Don’t get me wrong, I too know how to play at your level, I choose not to.
Now the challenge:
Turkey:
Source: Turkey calls for ground invasion | World news | The Guardian
Turkey has long had close contacts with General Rashid Dostum, the commander of the ethnic Uzbek forces trying to capture the key northern city of Mazar-i-Sharif.
The general lived in Turkey for some time after losing Mazar.Turkey gives him arms and money, and regularly sends a senior envoy, Aydemir Erman, from the foreign ministry into Northern Alliance-held territory to see him.
*
CARs
Tajikistan:
Source: http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=44089
*
As the region braces for war, the Northern Alliance is the focus of unprecedented international attention. The alliance is looking to Russia for arms and has always counted on Tajikistan for supplies. *
Uzbekistan:
Source:
The coming fight for Mazar is a battle both sides dare not lose: For the alliance, the capture of this city of two million people, second in size only to the capital, Kabul, will open the northern border with Uzbekistan to military supplies. For the Taliban, its fighting capacity already damaged by coalition air strikes, defeat might see their whole army unravel. And the capture of the city seems likely to trigger another chapter in a history that already reads like a Revenger’s Tragedy.
Four years ago Mazar-e-Sharif was a glittering jewel in Afghanistan’s battered crown - a city that had miraculously escaped the wars which ravaged the rest of the country for 15 years. It was the capital of a de facto independent state consisting of seven northern provinces controlled by the Uzbek warlord Rashid Dostum.
*
France:
Source: BBC News | SOUTH ASIA | France welcomes Afghan rebel
The president of the European parliament, Nicola Fontaine, said it was important that France showed its support to those who were opposing “the fanatical Taleban regime”.
*
Now as the Persians say: Chup Be She.
**
Ahmed Shah Masood is a coward? Only Pakistanis called him a coward. See all the western journos who went to Afghanistan describe him as a valiant commander. That is why the ISI got him killed by using their Al Qaeda buddies.
**
Where was he during the Soviet Invasion? As a valient commander he lost Mazar-e-Sharif, the capital of NA! Opps sorry, that was the * makeshift * capital after NA was ousted from Kabul. As for the ISI involvement in his death that is BS! I challenge you to present atleast 1 credible source (I’m talking BBC, the Times etc). No NA, Indian, Pakistani or any other “tainted” source accepted. It is time for you to back up your assertions.
**
Yes Yes. Wait till the Pakthuns question the Durand line. :biggthumb
**
Yes lets wait! How many challenges have we faced? Are Pakhtuns in Sarhad in open rebellion? In this new order, you will see where the Pakhtun support lies.
**
Well, I wouldn’t say that coming from a place which has been failing to take Kashmir for 55 years… **
Have we not tried? I said “Many Indians talk the talk but come a man to man challenge, we all know what happens..” and you think India and Pakistan are man to man? Do you know the disparities in the Armed forces? hell, not only have we talked the talk but also walked the wak, '48 & '65 are proofs of that. Come on now, India is a sumo wrestle to Pakistan’s average man…care to discuss when things were well matched up vis-a-vis China??
Why so quiet Talwar?
From Atimes:
Arms gift signals Pakistan’s Afghan aims
**Pakistan’s donation this week of arms and ammunition to the Afghan National Army signifies yet another move to strengthen its influence in the post-Taliban government in Afghanistan and ensure it remains friendly to Islamabad, experts say.
The permanent cornerstones of Pakistan’s policy toward the Afghan conflict have been: the end of the Afghan civil war, restoration of a permanent peace, establishment of a multi-ethnic, broad-based government in Afghanistan, and repatriation of Afghan refugees.**
While readin’ Mr. Nadam’s article, I stopped at the following piece of writin’:
'Take the example of other neighboring countries like Iran, which is supporting Ismail Khan [governor of Herat]. Russia is supporting General Rashid Dostum [Uzbek warlord], India General Fahim [defense minister]," he argued. "Pakistan is the only one that through this act has unequivocally announced to support the procedure laid down by different UN resolutions for reconstructing Afghanistan.
Somethin’ ain’t right here! Iran and Russia, are still supportin’ War Lords.
India’s stand, uh, we all know.
[quote]
What sour grapes? Every country that has known India in terms of sharing a history, hates it. Are you denying that?
[/quote]
Hmm. Except for the Taliban - mainly composed of Pakistanis, past and present Afghan regimes have had close relations with India. Iran likes India. India gets along with most nations.
Coming to Uzbekistan and Turkey, they supported Dostum who used to work with the Taliban also. He is just a mercenary warlord. Only India and Russia have supported the NA constantly. Iran gave aid to the Hazaras on and off.
But all that is nothing in comparison to the manpower, arms and money given to the Taliban by the ISI. Hordes after Hordes of madrassa grads were sent from Multan to Bahawalpur, from Karachi to Attock all the way to the frontline.
[quote]
Where was he during the Soviet Invasion? As a valient commander he lost Mazar-e-Sharif, the capital of NA! Opps sorry, that was the makeshift capital after NA was ousted from Kabul
[/quote]
Read up buddy.
Mazar-e-Sharif is the HQ of Rashid Dostum, not Massoud. Massoud's are was Taloqan. Taliban bought if Rashid Dostum who sent his goons to kill off Massoud's 2 commanders.
Massoud was the only one who refused to be bought. Remember that Pakistan created the Taliban because their protege Gulbuddin Hekmatyar couldn't evict Massoud from Kabul.
[quote]
As for the ISI involvement in his death that is BS! I challenge you to present atleast 1 credible source (I'm talking BBC, the Times etc). No NA, Indian, Pakistani or any other "tainted" source accepted. It is time for you to back up your assertions
[/quote]
Read Sebastian Junger's work in National Geographic Adventure magazine. He clearly lays it out.
[quote]
hell, not only have we talked the talk but also walked the wak, '48 & '65 are proofs of that
[/quote]
Both times you lost area in Kashmir. Would you consider that "walking the walk"? :D