Terrorism (split thread)

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
1

and btw… the “terrorism” in iraq is not terrorism, but rather open, armed rebellion against the invaders. When the soviet union’s red army defeated the white army of invading westerners and bourgeois in the 1920s, were they called terrorists? when the amerikans defeated the british army in the 1770s, were they called terrorists? are they now? No, of course not - (sarcastically) they’re not muslims. They were “revolutionaries.”

The people in iraq who strap a bomb to themselves and detonate in the presence of coalition soldiers or amerikan-appointed police (sellouts) are simply trying to thwart the invaders’ progress and drive non-iraqi influence out.

2

“see it like this: The modern western world of demokracy has brought more problems to more people than all of the 20th century dictators combined.”

The problem is, you only see what you choose to see. Over the last century, far beyoned the reaches of CNN, there have been governemtns who have killed tens of millions of people. Let me put this into perspective for you. Governments, principally dictators have killed:

"Putting the human cost of war and democide together, Power has killed over 203,000,000 people in this century. If one were to sit at a table and have this many people come in one door, walk at three miles per hour across the room with three feet between them (assume generously that each person is also one foot thick, naval to spine), and exit an opposite door, it would take over five years and nine months for them all to pass, twenty-four hours a day, 365 days a year. If all these dead were laid out head to toe, and assuming each is an average 5 feet tall, they would reach from Honolulu, Hawaii, across the vast Pacific and then the huge continental United States to Washington D.C. on the East coast, and then back again almost twenty times.14 Were each of these people also an average of two-feet wide, then to bury them side-to-side and head-to-toe would take fifty-five square miles. Even digging up every foot of all of San Marino, Monaco, and Vatican city to bury these democide and war battle-dead would not be sufficient to bury half of them. "

For the most part, it has been the US and the UK who have opposed the Soviets, The Communist Chinese, the Nazi’s and the Japanese. Spain, and most of Europe have been decimated again and again by wars on their continent. Europeans have, for a large part stood silent and refused to act. Read and learn, do not surf the web, and think that you know.

3

allow me to explain myself

the demokracy the west forces on the world is only for their benefit. I believe what I believe because I understand the concepts of their idea of what democracy is... and, had they had any respect for the progress that the UK, Germany, and The Netherlands made toward a socialist society in which "none suffered" and various other rhetoric spread by communists, marxists, socialists, etc., I would think otherwise.

Democracy is a great idea, I admit that. the people should be in control. But in the democracy that I've experienced is constantly being used by big business to wage wars on people with whom they disagree. Consider Vietnam - over a million innocent people were killed by an amerikan-french led attack on the communists simply because they sought independance from french colonialism and an economic system based on the non-western marxist policies of a classless society. Or Korea, for the same reason. Among various other similar activities.

And no one can deny the part that big business played in the war on iraq - texaco loves that money, and has no respect for the arabic people, and thus took it upon themselves to employ the might amerikan war machine on that weak country.

But, I apreciate that you did put it into perspective for me, since I have always prided myself on being able to accept the ideas of others in an attempt to strengthen or perhaps modify my own opinions. Your point is well recieved, my friend. But I have not changed my mind on democracy. I hate it.

4

Re: allow me to explain myself

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by DarkLiquor85: *
Your point is well recieved, my friend. But I have not changed my mind on democracy. I hate it.
[/QUOTE]

Your profile says your location is : USA unfortunately.

Without challenging you too harshly, I would ask what misfortune you experience being in the U.S. I would presume there is some inherent advantage to this democracy/society that has provided some opportunity for you that does not exist elsewhere.

i.e. economic advantage, educational system, freedom to embrace communist views.

In all seriousness, can you explain what the U.S. democracy has that keeps you there?

5

Re: Re: allow me to explain myself

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by storch: *

Your profile says your location is : USA unfortunately.

i.e. economic advantage, educational system, freedom to embrace communist views.

In all seriousness, can you explain what the U.S. democracy has that keeps you there?
[/QUOTE]

what has living in one part of the world got to do with if a system is good or bad.

If i live in a communist state and i don't like it i can say i don't like it

If i live in a capitalist state i can say the same

The europeans used to live in feudal states run by kings and priests they hated it and they changed it, you don't run from the problem you challenge and try to change it!

6

Re: Re: Re: allow me to explain myself

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ak47: *

what has living in one part of the world got to do with if a system is good or bad.

If i live in a communist state and i don't like it i can say i don't like it

If i live in a capitalist state i can say the same

The europeans used to live in feudal states run by kings and priests they hated it and they changed it, you don't run from the problem you challenge and try to change it!
[/QUOTE]

Generally you haven't been free to state an opinion against the govt. in communist states.

He is speaking against a system that I presume benefits him in ways he's not willing to admit. If he finds his residency in U.S. unfortunate, surely there is another place that would be more to his liking. If he is willing to put up with this distasteful system, I'm guessing he derives some advantage in being here otherwise he would be elswhere, right?

Just trying to look at the bright side, ya know.

7

Not really because you did'nt take my point on board.

I gave example of you can change system if you don't like it. You don't need to be running away or have to take the usual line from people ok get lost if you don't like it here because that is not really debating the issue.

Take another example the muslim countries which run by dictators and puppets from the west. The people there hate those oppressive systems so what they need to do obviously they need to change it not easy thing to do definetly but it has to be done sooner or later!

8

^
Or they just leave and find opportunity in Western democracies as they continue to pine for some Utopia they are unwilling or unable to create.

To hear some people (DarkLiquor, many ex-pats from Middle-east and elsewhere)
you'd think democracy is the worst thing for societies. Yet, they still come. I'm not saying they should have no voice to affect change. Within the bouds of law, they are free to try to create any democratic change in the system they wish. My question to DL isn't about "love it or leave it". He's in U.S. for some reason despite his obvious discomfort about this society. Something either keeps him here or attracted him in the first place. I'm trying to figure out what it is.

9

usa

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by storch: *

Your profile says your location is : USA unfortunately.

Without challenging you too harshly, I would ask what misfortune you experience being in the U.S. I would presume there is some inherent advantage to this democracy/society that has provided some opportunity for you that does not exist elsewhere.

i.e. economic advantage, educational system, freedom to embrace communist views.

In all seriousness, can you explain what the U.S. democracy has that keeps you there?
[/QUOTE]

My reasons for not enjoying life in the us are many, but among the most annoying of all these are these: The US Economy, though it is strong, I admit, is tailored to work mostly for the business owners via government subsidies and tax writeoffs, while the worker, such as myself, is constantly screwed by the tax system (for instance, my friend Seth, who earned 27 000 USD last year, paid over 8 000 in taxes, and got a return of only 200 because he's not married, doesn;t own his house, and doesn;t run a business; I am luckier, since I am a student, and thus get about half of my taxes back). The government, supposedly based on democracy, really doesn't care one bit about the people's interests. Hell, we don;t even get to choose the president, the "electors" do... all 550 of them. If that's universal sufferage, then I would rather live in a poor dictatorship, such as that of our pal "little kim."

Let me wrap up with another point for your considerations. They tell us we have freedom of speech, expression, and thought, when in reality, we may only think as we like. There are people who have spoken and been punished for it -- as recently as 3 months ago, a man was imprisoned for swearing the in the presence of a rich woman and her 2 kids. I was almost expelled from highschool when I drew on my backpack an inverted US flag on my backpack and put an iraqi flag over it. I expressed myself on a political affair of which "my nation" was a part, and was punished -- I was suspended and required to remove the artwork.

10

Re: Re: Re: Re: allow me to explain myself

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by storch: *

Generally you haven't been free to state an opinion against the govt. in communist states.

He is speaking against a system that I presume benefits him in ways he's not willing to admit. If he finds his residency in U.S. unfortunate, surely there is another place that would be more to his liking. If he is willing to put up with this distasteful system, I'm guessing he derives some advantage in being here otherwise he would be elswhere, right?

Just trying to look at the bright side, ya know.
[/QUOTE]

After I'm through with college (which, by the way, is costing me about 8000 dollars and my mother about 12000), I am leaving to live in a different democracy -- either Ireland, Spain, or Germany. I can speak the language of all three nations, have ancestors from Germany and Spain, and respect their cultures, history, etc.

And... it's like I said. I think democracy is a great idea... but democracy in the US is flawed... almost as bad as democracy in the Soviet Union. but I hate capitolism. for me, the ideal state is a democratic socialist republic... sowie most of the nations of Europe.

11

"After I'm through with college "

Why wait, leave now.....

12

Re: usa

[quote]
The US Economy, though it is strong, I admit, is tailored to work mostly for the business owners via government subsidies and tax writeoffs, while the worker, such as myself, is constantly screwed by the tax system (for instance, my friend Seth, who earned 27 000 USD last year, paid over 8 000 in taxes, and got a return of only 200 because he's not married, doesn;t own his house, and doesn;t run a business; I am luckier, since I am a student, and thus get about half of my taxes back).
[/quote]
In a communist state Seth would probably earn 1/4 of that salarly and pay most or all of it in taxes.

[quote]
The government, supposedly based on democracy, really doesn't care one bit about the people's interests. Hell, we don;t even get to choose the president, the "electors" do... all 550 of them. If that's universal sufferage, then I would rather live in a poor dictatorship, such as that of our pal "little kim."
[/quote]
Have at it. But I guess you already know you wouldn't get any kind of education or have any standard of living. And poor Seth will probably make only $270 next year.

13

Wilhelm,

Vielen Gluck in Irhen neuer(es?) Land.

You complain about your friend Seth's taxes (29%), yet you pine for socialism.

Rich people pay a larger percent of their income, but it will never be fair enough I'm guessing.

You complain about the cost of school. Will university be free of cost in the places you wish to go?

What you suffered at your school with your artwork was a social rebuke by those who run your community school. When you go to federal prison for your backpack decoration, then we can talk about the violation of your free speech perpetrated by the U.S.

Your distaste with the U.S. has a lot less to do with it's form of democracy and more to do with your impression of it's social fabric. You won't be the first 19 year old waxing philosophical about the cultural and intellectual superiority of "The Continent".

So please, go and enjoy yourself. Bring your sketchbook, write some poetry.

Print your post out. You may want to read it again in 15 or 20 years.

If you happen to go into some type of private enterprise, where your drive and creativity can employ others and create some type of wealth, you may change your opinion of how much you feel the government's on your side.

In 1985, I was home one summer from college. I saw a highschool friend and we got to talking. I remember saying, "'Shrooms have changed my life, man."

Things change.

Totally yours,

Storch

14

Another example of the haves and have nots.

Even in America the population is effected by the system of capitalism where people feel squeezed and bled dry by the system.

and when some of them complains the others jump on him like a pack of hyenas and call him a commie or ask him to leave the country :konfused:

15

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by storch: *
Wilhelm,

Vielen Gluck in Irhen neuer(es?) Land.

You complain about your friend Seth's taxes (29%), yet you pine for socialism.

Rich people pay a larger percent of their income, but it will never be fair enough I'm guessing.

You complain about the cost of school. Will university be free of cost in the places you wish to go?

What you suffered at your school with your artwork was a social rebuke by those who run your community school. When you go to federal prison for your backpack decoration, then we can talk about the violation of your free speech perpetrated by the U.S.

Your distaste with the U.S. has a lot less to do with it's form of democracy and more to do with your impression of it's social fabric. You won't be the first 19 year old waxing philosophical about the cultural and intellectual superiority of "The Continent".

So please, go and enjoy yourself. Bring your sketchbook, write some poetry.

Print your post out. You may want to read it again in 15 or 20 years.

If you happen to go into some type of private enterprise, where your drive and creativity can employ others and create some type of wealth, you may change your opinion of how much you feel the government's on your side.

In 1985, I was home one summer from college. I saw a highschool friend and we got to talking. I remember saying, "'Shrooms have changed my life, man."

Things change.

Totally yours,

Storch
[/QUOTE]

Ich habe nicht gewusst, dass irgendman hier deutsch sprechen kann....

I have checked the universities in both Spain and Germany - all completely free, asside from the various private (mostly catholic) schools and such limitations (in spain) on noncitizens.

If anyone wishes, I can explain to them my reasons for supporting communism (though the obvious hypocracies arise, that in communist countries the people are more restricted and they must pay higher taxes). But for now, just know that, if I am alive when the world finally decides it has had enough of amerika's bs, I will obtain arms and join in the revolution.

16

completely true.

I wear my hammer and sickle pin on the upper left corner of my trench coat everyday, and though I have only twice been openly accused of being a disrespectful commie, I know the feeling exists with a good number of people, particularly the eldern and the bourgeois yuppies.

to the supposed insult of being a commie, I pride myself and respond only with, “thank you, hail the left” or, to really get them going, “danke, heil Den Links, du kannst mir einblasen, du scheissverdammte Schwuchtl Hundensohn Arschloch!”

17

You buy into the myth that says “dissent=patriotism”. I will sya for the umpteenth time. Reasoned dissent that has the goal of creating positive change in the best interest of our democracy, the constitution we all ascribe to is fine.

But give a little credit to those of us who can spot a young’n who likes to feel disassociated from “The Man”. His goals seem to have no relationship with the change of American democracy. He wants communism as our system. He states in another thread that given the opportunity he would shoot the rest of his U.S. platoon and join the other side in any war in which he was involved. His is a very "un"mature ignorance of reality.

No one can force him to leave the country, we can only tell him how nice it would be if he did and point out his hypocrisy.

18

i see

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by storch: *

You buy into the myth that says "dissent=patriotism". I will sya for the umpteenth time. Reasoned dissent that has the goal of creating positive change in the best interest of our democracy, the constitution we all ascribe to is fine.

But give a little credit to those of us who can spot a young'n who likes to feel disassociated from "The Man". His goals seem to have no relationship with the change of American democracy. He wants communism as our system. He states in another thread that given the opportunity he would shoot the rest of his U.S. platoon and join the other side in any war in which he was involved. His is a very "un"mature ignorance of reality.

No one can force him to leave the country, we can only tell him how nice it would be if he did and point out his hypocrisy.
[/QUOTE]

I'm going to assume you either did not read all of the posts I've left, (because if you had, you'd realise that I DO plan on leaving, and I do NOT hate democracy, I hate amerika and amerikans) or you're just a computer geek wo wants to pick a fight over the internet because you know you're safe in mommy's basement.

19

:yawn:

You still here?

20

ohioguy

ohioguy.... in what city do you live?