Pakistan seems to adopt a lot of Hindu culture....the caste system is just another ridiculous tradition that the Muslims have taken from the Hindus.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/confused.gif
Where did you hear Panchayat Law made by Pakistan?
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/confused.gif
This caste system is made by Panchayaat and Tribal dudes. DON’T INCLUDE PAKISTAN INTO IT.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hula.gif
TAKE YOUR BEST SHOT AT ME
[quote]
Originally posted by heart beat:
** i already read this article. what are u trying to prove by posting the same article again and again. ur arguments were what i was looking for. by posting it again and again won't help.
PS. that doesn't mean that i expect u to post ur arguments again. i have already read them.
**
[/quote]
Why I posted the article again?
Because you still claim this to be true:
[quote]
Originally posted by heart beat:
**
by ur saying this i won't start supporting it. if u do then good for u. i in the first place did not believe in the superiority or inferioty of the castes. i said unlike the indian castes these reflect the ethnic background of ppl.
**
[/quote]
The article mentions the superiority and the inferiority of the castes, the caste-system in Pakistan is the same as the caste-system of India. Just because you deny this, doesn't change the reality. Learn to accept the truth. Just because there is a border that divides Pakistan and India, doesn’t mean that there is a big difference in the culture and tradition of the people who live in areas that are close to the borders. These people practice the same caste-system, whether they live in Pakistan or in India, they have the same roots brother, why can’t you assimilate this fact?
[quote]
Originally posted by heart beat:
**
by reading this and similar posts from you it gives me an impression that u are well versed in castes. which is why i asked you.
PS. i just noticed in this post of urs that you asked me to do my homework. dude, u are the on who has spent all his life in middle east. and now after going through a bad patch in life u having started blaming a country who has got nothing to do with it.
B/w u mentioned in ur post if i represented everybody(the reason for which i have already mentioned), now Bros Different, honestly tell me if u have the authority to blame all the muslims(or ppl of pakistan)?
**
[/quote]
You have mentioned that you will never accept anything that I say about the caste-system, so its better that you try to learn about it yourself; through the sources, you trust or respect.
This country is misrepresenting Islam, I am a Muslim first and then I am a Pakistani. This country and its leaders have everything to do with this issue, there is a Pakistani Police Station in that area, and you want everyone to believe that the Police had no idea as to what was going on? The truth is that the Pakistani Police supports the unjust, the rich, the powerful and they do that because these are the instructions that they receive from the Pakistani Government, if you disagree to this, then you are claiming that the Pakistani Government is not responsible for the actions of the Pakistani Police. Do let me know which of the above statements is true.
I know what Islam teaches, and I know that even the basic teachings of Islam are not implemented in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and this is why I blame the Pakistani Muslim Government. Since they claim that they are Muslims and that theirs is an Islamic country, if all their claims are true, then why is it so difficult to convey the basic message of Islam to its citizens, the truth is that the Pakistan has nothing to do with Islam, and this is why the “Islamic” should be replaced by “Peoples”. I am using your logic here, brother. Since you said that it’s the people’s government…… remember? And based on this same statement, I also think that the Muslims of Pakistan are responsible too, since the government of Pakistan is a reflection of its people. You talk about having love for my country, well I love my country at the same time I don’t like innocent people to suffer and I believe this is why we are having this debate here. You are of the opinion that since I am a Pakistani, I should always support the Pakistani Government and its policies even if they are unjust, you are of the opinion that one should sit back and ignore all the injustices that is being done by our leaders, I cannot do this, because its not what Islam teaches us. And as long as Pakistan uses Islam as an identity, being a Muslim I reserve the right to point out to anything that is against Islamic Teachings.
And, what is it that you are trying to prove by, constantly taunting me for living most of my life outside of Pakistan? Pakistan claims to be an Islamic country, and Islam is same everywhere, whether you live in the Middle East or in Pakistan, Islam and its teachings do not change. But many Pakistanis inclusive of you think otherwise, most of the people in Pakistan believe that it is alright to practice their un Islamic traditions / cultures and claim yourself to be a Muslim at the same time, you also believe that being a Muslim is one thing and being a Pakistani is another. There isn’t a different Islam for the Pakistanis. My brother Pakistan uses Islam as an identity, and this is the core problem, you cannot claim to be a Muslim and follow man made laws that are against the laws of Allah. This is what is attracting the Wrath of Allah upon Pakistan and its people. Either we practice Islam completely or we stop claiming that ours is an Islamic Republic, we cannot mis-represent Islam, it is a serious issue which shouldn’t be ignored.
And, whether or not I have done something for Pakistan. I am not obliged to answer such questions. Not to you and not via this medium.
[quote]
Originally posted by s_H_e_I_k_H:
Pakistan seems to adopt a lot of Hindu culture....the caste system is just another ridiculous tradition that the Muslims have taken from the Hindus.
[/quote]
can you recite koran with your native language? why you need arabic language?
whats your point?
** ** http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_15-7-2002_pg3_7
Second opinion: The violence of the Panchayat
Khaled Ahmed’s Urdu Press Review
The panchayat was a more defective institution because of the lack of ‘equality’ of the tribal environment in the plains. As Pakistan fights political terror, the panchayat and its various mutations are aggressively sanctioning violence against the under-privileged segments of the population
In parallel with the growth of terrorism in Pakistan, there is also violence in the social institutions. If one takes a closer look at Pakistani society, social violence took root much earlier than political or religious violence. Human rights organisations have always reported cases of social violence against the minority communities and against women. Our social institutions were never ideal. They reflected the power relations within society. The jirga could never punish the powerful clan under which it functioned. The panchayat was a more defective institution because of lack of ‘equality’ in the tribal environment in the plains. As Pakistan fights political terror, the panchayat and its various mutations are aggressively sanctioning violence against the under-privileged segments of the population.
According to Khabrain, in Jatoi near Muzaffargarh in Punjab a panchayat (elders’ council) of the Mastoi tribe decided that an innocent daughter of a labourer should be raped by four people as justice for the complainant who had alleged that the labourer’s son had relations with his daughter. The innocent girl who was a reciter of the Quran was taken into a room by four men in front of one thousand spectators and raped. When she screamed the women of the village cried and hid themselves. The girl was sent home naked after the rape. Governor Punjab gave instructions after which the panchayat was arrested. According to Khabrain, this action was followed by another rape of a poor girl by two armed Mastoi feudals. **The police **let the culprits off, after which the girl committed suicide by drinking poison. Further details by Khabrain related to the Mastoi Baloch living in Jatoi. Rape and theft was their pastime. Earlier two daughters of a poor farmer were raped in broad daylight when he refused to leave the area. The wife of one Hameed was raped by six Mastois in front of the panchayat which was formed of Mastois. When one Ghulam Hussain protested, he was buggered by the Mastois. When asked not to peek inside their homes the Mastois beat up and wounded the inmates of a house. The Baloch have illegally occupied 20 squares of land gifted by Sardar Koray (Whip) Khan to the state.
Credit for bringing the evil of the Jatoi panchayat to public view goes to daily ‘Khabrain’. The rest of the press was alerted to it after the BBC picked up the story. Pakistani press, especially English, is flawed in the sense that it does not report adequately from the countryside. District correspondents are usually Urdu writers, which means that the English press stays out of the countryside where most of the Pakistanis live. The correspondents live in a system that doesn’t allow them to be as independent as they should be, and for that their system of remuneration is partly to blame.
According to daily ‘Din’ (6 July 2002), 22 women were subjected to gang-rape in the Muzaffargarh area of Punjab in one month. The disease is so widespread that the panchayats of the area have themselves begun to resort to them as punishment. Women are picked up from the fields by groups of men, violated, and left for dead. Daily ‘Nawa-e-Waqt’ (5 July 2002) reported that the panchayat-ordered rape of a girl in Jatoi Muzaffargarh was no isolated case in Pakistan. Women often pay the price of false honour in Pakistan. Women are forced to marry to resolve disputes. In Attock, a doctor girl had to marry a 70-year-old man to prevent her brother from being killed by rivals. In Dunyapur, a girl contracting ‘love marriage’ was killed on the order of panchayat and no one took notice of it. Men who undressed 11 girls and made them dance naked in the Zia Era are out of jail and roaming about unreformed.
It is obvious that the focus on the Muzaffargarh incident, and the action taken by the government against the perpetrators and the police officers who colluded with the panchayat has encouraged similar reports from other districts, bringing to light a phenomenon that has gripped the entire province.
According to ‘Jang’ (8 July 2002), cases of rape in Punjab had registered a hundred percent increase. The highest number of rapes in the past were committed in 1995 when 340 women were dishonoured. In the first 5 months of 2002, already 521 women had been raped. Out of 3,000 cases of rape only 80 rapists had been punished in the court of law.
Rape occurs in societies under some kind of duress. It happened in South Africa after the dismantlement of apartheid. In Punjab it has increased because of the laxity of the control of the state and the rise of groups that operate in defiance of the state but with religious sanction.
Reported in daily ‘Pakistan’ (6 July 2002) in a village Chak Jhumra Faisalabad an imam of a mosque persuaded the local population to catch hold of one Zahid and stab him before stoning him to death. The accusation was that he had insulted the Quran. He had been accused of this in 1994 and was on bail on the basis of mental disturbance. He had quit the village but had returned, which infuriated the cleric, the original accuser in 1994. This time he did not have recourse to law.
The imam played the role of the panchayat in this case. Although the Urdu press played down the culpability of the mosque imam, it has come to light that the man abused the blasphemy law to kill the man he wanted to kill.
According to ‘Nawa-e-Waqt’ (9 July 2002), a khateeb of a mosque near Faisalabad was fulminating against the Musharraf government and America when a Pakistani American Farhad Javed, visiting his home town, tried to stop him from making a political speech in the mosque. He wanted him instead to discuss Islam. The khateeb flew into a rage and accused him of blasphemy, then took a procession of enraged people to his house and tried to stone him to death. Before the stoning attempt a panchayat of the town okayed the decision of the khateeb. Two cases were registered on the insistence of the American embassy against the offenders. The khateeb and a number of attackers were arrested.
The evil of the panchayat has again arisen against the background of the inability of the state to control the population. The trigger is the abuse of a defective law that the state finds itself unable to revise. Religion minister Dr Ghazi in his latest statement has defended the law as it is, which means the violence has sanction from religious scholars. These cases of violence are actually symptoms of a deep malaise. There is the widespread belief that the state no longer acts according to Islam and that violence should be used in the hiatus of law that exists in the countryside.
Last suspect in gang-rape case nabbed
MULTAN: Police on Friday arrested the 14th and final suspect in the infamous tribal gang-rape of a teenager last month and one man for sodomising her younger brother. The police were still hunting for two other Mastoi tribesmen also accused of sodomising the teenagers 11-year-old brother. The police began the hunt for the tribesmen after an inquiry found on Thursday that they had tried to conceal their act by accusing the pre-pubescent boy of “illicit” relations with a 30-year-old Mastoi woman.
Police in Muzaffargarh said they were confident of nabbing the other two suspects soon. They also announced they had arrested the 14th and final suspect in the gang-rape case. Senior police officer Farman Ali Gujjar said the police had submitted a case against 14 people to an anti-terrorism court in Dera Ghazi Khan and hearing would be held on July 18.
The three-member inquiry team, appointed by Punjab Governor Khalid Maqbool, found that local police officer Muhammad Iqbal had locked the boy in a cell to prevent him from revealing that he had been subjected to sodomy by the powerful high-caste tribesmen. Iqbal was also arrested on Friday. Mastoi tribe members had maintained that the boy had sexual relations with the 30-year-old woman, despite a doctor’s preliminary finding that he was a “minor and incapable to meet the sexual lust of any opposite sex”. The Mastoi woman had insisted the boy was not “minor”, forcing doctors to re-examine him and re-verify his age.
http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/jul2002-weekly/nos-14-07-2002/fashion/p1.htm
**
Do not involve Pakistan into this? A Pakistani Police Officer is using a Pakistani Police Station’s Lock-up, and you want to keep Pakistan out of this issue?
Mastoi tribesmen also accused of sodomising the teenagers 11-year-old brother
Its all happening in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. Why is it happening in broad - daylight? because “The police let the culprits off”, which Police are we talking about here? The Pakistani Police!
Accept it that our country is not an Islamic Republic.
[This message has been edited by Different (edited July 15, 2002).]
Pakistani policeman arrested in gang-rape case
MUZAFFARGARH, Pakistan, July 6 (Reuters) - Pakistani police said on Saturday they had arrested one of their own officers for failing to prevent a woman from being gang-raped by four men on the order of a village jury.
**
"We have arrested Assistant Sub-Inspector (ASI) Muhammad Iqbal and charged him with criminal negligence for failing to follow the procedure," **Muzaffargarh's Senior Superintendent of Police (SSP) Farman Ali told Reuters.
Mukhtaran Mai says she was raped by four men on the order of a village jury or panchayhat because her brother, Abdul Shakoor, had a love affair with the girl of a higher class tribe. Police say she is 30 years old.
Earlier, the woman's brother Shakoor had also been kidnapped by the Mastoi tribe. A police team led by Iqbal freed him but failed to arrest the tribesmen, who later took their revenge on his sister, the SSP said.
"It's a criminal negligence," Ali said. "If the ASI had recovered the kidnapped boy, he should have proceeded against the accused tribesmen according to the law. Now he will also be proceeded against."
Authorities say another young girl of the same area committed suicide a few days ago after being raped.
**Gang-rape after ‘jirga’ verdict shocking **
Lahore, July 2: and mete out verdicts that so often grossly violate the rights of citizens. The increasing incidents of terrible atrocities against women are a terrible reflection on the state of society and the status of women within it.
The gang-rape of a young woman near Muzzafargarh, as a form of punishment apparently ordered by a tribal jirga, is particularly shocking and presents an alarming picture of the condition in which so many women live and the atrocities they face. HRCP is also especially shocked that the tribal jirga should have been allowed to meet, order the gang-rape of a teenaged woman apparently as ‘punishment’ for the actions of her brother and then have this terrible verdict implemented in the presence of at least 1,000 people.
It is clear that such a heinous crime cannot take place without the connivance of authorities. Indeed, the increasing incidents of jirgas meeting and unlawfully determining matters of crime and punishment can take place only with the involvement of local administrations and those that back them. The fact that no case was registered for several days after the terrible incident in Muzzafargarh is further evidence of official complicity in the crime committed against a young woman.
HRCP demands punishment under the law for all those involved in the crime, as well as the onlookers and members of the administration who permitted it to take place. It also demands an immediate disbanding of all extra-judicial tribunals and the putting in place of measures to prevent the assembly of jirgas or other informal tribunals that seek to perform the duty of courts.
http://www.hrcp-web.org/h-pr.htm#Gang-rape_after‘jirga’
[This message has been edited by Different (edited July 15, 2002).]
**Third accused in sodomy case held: Meerwala gang-rape **
By A Correspondent
MULTAN, July 15: Muzaffargarh police on Monday arrested last of the absconding accused in the Shakoor sodomy case related to the Meerwala gang-rape.
Working on a tip-off, police raided a hide-out in Rahim Yar Khan district and nabbed Manzoor Husain. He, along with Jamil and Punnu, was accused of assaulting 12-year-old Shakoor Tattla, who was later blamed by the Mastois for having ‘illicit’ relations with one of their girls. Mastois convened a Panchayat of their clan and ordered gang-rape of Shakoor’s sister to avenge the ‘insult’.
The Tattla family said the Mastois had staged the drama of holding the Panchayat to cover up sodomy. Their assertion was later also confirmed by the governor’s inspection team in its findings.
It may be added here that the police have so far arrested 18 people, including an ASI, in the gang-rape episode. Among them are Faiz Bakhsh Mastoi, the chief juror, Ramzan Pachaar, the arbitrator, Ghulam Farid, juror-cum-rapist, Abdul Khaliq, Allah Ditta and Fayyaz Husain, the rapists.
Besides the three accused in the **sodomy **case, eight others - Aslam, Rasool Bakhsh, Allah Ditta, Khalil, Qasim, Ghulam Husain, Hazoor Bakhsh, and Alla Diwaya - were arrested for being part of the Mastois gathering to enforce the Panchayat verdict.
The victim family had reportedly said the Jatoi police had arrested a wrong person in place of actual perpetrator Fayyaz Husain for having the same name and father’s name as well.
When contacted, Dera Ghazi Khan range police DIG Asif Nawaz expressed surprise and said the victim and other witnesses had identified all the four arrested accused before the judicial magistrate at the time of recording statements under section 164. “No one objected on that day,” he added, saying “arrested Fayyaz has confessed to committing the crime. Other rapists have also identified him as their accomplice.”
Jatoi police have meanwhile completed the draft of the challan which will be forwarded to the chief prosecutor of anti-terrorism courts in the Punjab on Tuesday for his opinion. A police source said the challan would be submitted to the ATA-97 court in Dera on June 17, a day before the hearing of the suo moto notice taken by the apex court in the Meerwala case.
It is learnt that challan will be submitted under section 6 of ATA-97 that charged the accused with commotion and harassment to a segment of society.
SUSPENDED: **The Dera range DIG has suspended three sub-inspectors and two ASIs of Jatoi police station on Monday for showing negligence in the execution of duty. They are penalised for detaining people without formally recording their arrest at the time when Punjab Law Minister Rana Ijaz visited the police station and recovered ‘illegally’ confined people from the residential quarters of the police station. Some of them were nominated accused in a number of cases, including murder. **
Meanwhile, working women’s organisation trust, an organisation backed by Jamaat-i-Islami Pakistan, took out a protest procession against the Meerwala gang-rape here on Monday.
Several dozen women participated in the procession that started its march from Kalma Chowk to the Multan Press Club. Addressing the gathering at the termination point, trust’s provincial organiser Shahida Perveen termed the Meerwala incident a blot on the social and moral history of the country.
She urged the apex court to scrutinize all the aspects of the gruesome incident.
http://www.dawn.com/2002/07/16/nat12.htm
See, how “corrupt” the Police of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan is? Try denying these facts.
My heart goes out to the innocent girl and her family. May Allah give them courage to get through these crisis. If there is any dignity among the law enforcers, they'll see to it that these idiots are dealt with.
So much for talibanization being the rootcause of Pakistan's problems.
Account of Punjab Rape Tells of a Brutal Society
By IAN FISHER
MEERWALA, Pakistan, July 14 — The same haunting detail surfaces in the stories of everyone involved, including the woman, one of the four men who raped her, and the imam who finally broke the silence about the case. That detail is her pleading.
“When Khaliq dragged me away, I said, Khaliq, I am like a sister to you,' " said Mukhtaran Bibi, 28, who is now a thin, sleepless and frightened woman. "He did not listen to me. I even said, In the name of the Koran, please forgive me.’ I asked the whole council for forgiveness, to save my honor.”
“But nobody listened,” she said. “They took me inside. And they raped me.”
Gang rape, horrifying as it is, is not uncommon in this part of southern Punjab. What has shocked Pakistan is that a tribal council here, for the first time anyone can remember, decreed gang rape as a punishment to avenge an episode of illicit sex — one that probably never happened in the first place.
Ms. Bibi was raped on June 22, but word moved slowly out of this dusty farming village, which lacks even a paved road. In the last week, the government has arrested 18 people amid public angst that **many basics in Pakistani life collided to cause this crime: women’s low status, everyday violence, the weak reach of central authority, the injustices of a feudal society obsessed with honor and revenge. **
“A representative, consultative body, though it is informal and illegal, sanctioned a gang rape,” said Naeem Mirza, of the Aurat Foundation, a women’s rights group. “It has shocked the entire conscience of a society.”
The story of what happened is complicated, **a tale of sex and power and tribal custom in a part of southern Punjab Province that is “in the back of beyond, even in Pakistan,” **as one government minister described it. The dispute occurred between two tribal families here: the Mastoi, who own much land and do well, and the lowly Gujar, who own little.
Ms. Bibi’s family is Gujar. On June 22, the family and the police contend, three Mastoi men kidnapped Ms. Bibi’s youngest brother, Abdul Shakur, a tall boy who said he was 11 or 12. They took him to a sugar cane field. **Then they took turns sodomizing him — a fact that medical experts later confirmed. **
“They asked me if I would tell my family,” Abdul recalled. “When I said yes, they beat me up. Then they locked me up in a room.”
The police were notified that Abdul was being held in the house of a young Mastoi, Abdul Khaliq. When they arrived, they found Mr. Khaliq’s sister, Salma Naseen, in the same room with Abdul Shakur. The Mastoi said the woman, who is in her late 20’s, and the boy were having an affair. (A government investigation later said Abdul was too young to “meet the sexual lust of any opposite sex.”)
The police took Abdul away, but held him in a cell. Meanwhile, the Mastoi convened the tribal council, or panchayat, and decided to avenge the honor of Ms. Naseen.
Panchayats have operated for centuries, settling small disputes involving fights between families or over land. But in recent years, many say, they have been handing down ever harsher punishments.
Both the Gujar — still unaware of what had happened to Abdul, who remained at the police station — and the Mastoi now say they both favored the same means of resolving the dispute: that Abdul would marry Ms. Naseen. And, to satisfy the honor of the Mastois, one of Abdul’s five sisters would be given away in marriage to a Mastoi man.
But the Gujars say the panchayat was calling not for marriage but for punitive rape. There seemed an escape hatch though, according to Ghulam Farid, 60, Ms. Bibi’s father. He said a member of the panchayat said it would be enough if one of his daughters went before them and apologized on behalf of the family.
Ms. Bibi, who is divorced and teaches the Koran to children, was chosen.
“I did not think anything like this would happen,” she said. She went to the cotton field where the panchayat was meeting and, begging for mercy, was dragged away with the council’s blessing by Abdul Khaliq, the police say. Her father said he was held at gunpoint.
For an hour and a half, Mr. Khaliq and three other men raped her. A police investigator said the Mastoi “danced in jubilation.” Then Ms. Bibi was forced, before perhaps 300 people, to walk home naked.
**This year so far, there have been 72 gang rapes and 93 other rapes documented in densely populated Punjab Province alone, **according to the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan. The rapists are often higher-caste men, the victims usually lower-caste women, as in the case here. In this case, the rape appears to have been meant as the worst punishment possible.
“What happens in war?” asked Attiya Inayatullah, the nation’s minister for women’s development. “Rape is used as a tool of war. Similarly here, rape has been used as the ultimate humiliation.”
Ms. Bibi’s rape by decree might never have come to light; the family was afraid to fill in the blanks for the police. But a local imam, Abdul Razzaq, 40, heard about it. Though Ms. Bibi’s father would not say much, Mr. Razzaq took a risk with his own safety by addressing the case during Friday Prayers almost a week later.
“I condemned this incident: that a poor girl had been raped and that they had invited the wrath of Allah,” he said. “Such a barbaric and oppressive injustice has never been witnessed before.”
Mr. Razzaq believes in the panchayat as a way for poor people to resolve their disputes, often according to Islamic law. But this, he said, was "against the spirit of Islam.
“This was not a panchayat,” he said. “This was their cruelty.”
After the imam’s sermon, local journalists picked up the story and it began to spread, in conflicting accounts that at first left out the story of sodomy. Then the Pakistani government began moving, quickly arresting all four men accused of raping Ms. Bibi, including a police officer and some members of the panchayat.
So far, six men face the death penalty, among them Mr. Khaliq, 18, and the reported leader of the panchayat, Faiz Bux, 34.
Today, the two men stood chained together in jail. Mr. Bux said it was all a mistake and that his “heart melted” at Ms. Bibi’s pleas for forgiveness. The council did not hand down a sentence of rape, he said: Mr. Khaliq did it all himself.
“This is his ignorance, his shortsightedness,” he said. “He got really emotional.”
Mr. Khaliq, however, said he was in fact given permission to “take revenge.” But he said he listened to Ms. Bibi’s cries for forgiveness: “I didn’t rape her. I just held her for two or three minutes.”
The case has prompted an outpouring of calls for the government to crack down on the panchayats. Critics say **a slow blurring of tribal and Islamic law has increased the councils’ authority as well as their impunity. **
“People are under the illusion there is something Islamic about the councils, that somehow they have a sanction,” said Beena Sarwar, a journalist and women’s rights activist. **“So the government is very careful not to offend them.” **
“They need to come down very heavily on the tribal councils,” she added. “This is the time to say there is no tribal law. This is the time to say there is only one law of the land.”
Ms. Inayatullah, the women’s minister, and other officials say the government has taken extraordinary steps both to punish the suspects and — not least through publicizing the case — to prevent something similar from happening elsewhere. But human rights officials say it is too early to say whether a government with much on its plate also has the will to improve the plight of poor women and monitor methods of tribal justice.
A contingent of heavily armed soldiers now guards Ms. Bibi and her family. The nation’s military ruler, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, sent her $8,300 as compensation. The government has promised the village a paved road, electricity, a permanent police outpost and a school to be named for Ms. Bibi, where she will be a teacher.
Ms. Bibi said she finds some comfort in this. But she cannot sleep. Her family says she eats almost nothing. “I feel so enraged,” she said. “If these people came in front of me, I would kill them.”
She said she has considered suicide, the route a teenager in a nearby village recently took after she, too, was gang raped. But now, she said, she wants to live to see her tormentors hanged.
“Initially, I thought it was a matter of great shame,” she said. “Now, I think there should be justice.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/17/international/asia/17RAPE.html
[quote]
Originally posted by Different:
**
The article mentions the superiority and the inferiority of the castes, the caste-system in Pakistan is the same as the caste-system of India. Just because you deny this, doesn't change the reality. Learn to accept the truth. Just because there is a border that divides Pakistan and India, doesn’t mean that there is a big difference in the culture and tradition of the people who live in areas that are close to the borders. These people practice the same caste-system, whether they live in Pakistan or in India, they have the same roots brother, why can’t you assimilate this fact?
**
[/quote]
I know that castes in india are differentiated on the basis of sup/inf.
Now you claim that the caste system in india is the same as in pakistan(meaning castes existing in pakistan are also differentiated on the basis of superiority).
Keeping in view what u believe in; if you could classify the following pakistani castes on the basis of being superior/inferior(which according to u how it is in pakistan). I had asked u this before and I am asking u this again, as I will be more then happy to know something which I am not aware of. If u can do that we will call it a day. And the dinner would be on me; anywhere u want to.
My previous post:
[quote]
Originally posted by heart beat:
***Bro Different:*
Also, just for my knowledge, could you please categorize the following castes
as superior or inferiorwhich are the terms which u used?
for ur convenience you can consider two imaginary columns i.e superior and inferior to divide the list.
mogul,jat,rajput,syed,sheikh,kashmiri
Have a good day!
**
[/quote]
[quote]
Originally posted by Different:
**
You have mentioned that you will never accept anything that I say about the caste-system, so its better that you try to learn about it yourself; through the sources, you trust or respect.
**
[/quote]
I am not going to accept something just cause’ you or any other person says so. As mentioned earlier let me know how we will classify those castes and that would be it.
I wasn’t planning to bring this into this discussion, but now that you have mentioned about my sources I feel necessary that I should enlighten you with my sources which are as follow..(and yes I do trust and believe in them but if u have something else, I will be glad to hear it out)
*
*lived 19 yrs in pakistan
*visited “rural areas” in which the caste system is a major problem
*did a group research on the caste-system that exists in pakistan
*
now, that you know what my sources are, i will eagerly be waiting for ur sources?
***I dunno where I'm going. I dunno what for. But I'm making progress.
This country ???
Dude, it’s a piece of land. Its u, me who make it a country.
I see that now u are now blaming the governemnt of pak & the police for the corruption that exists in our society.. Bro different, in your first statement you were blaming ALL THE PPL OF PAK (GOOD OR BAD) where I disagreed with u. you seem to have changed ur opinion somehow. still
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif
Just tell me one thing…being a muslim & a pakistani do u blame urself too for the condition pakistan is into?
***I dunno where I’m going. I dunno what for. But I’m making progress.
[quote]
Originally posted by Different:
** And, what is it that you are trying to prove by, constantly taunting me for living most of my life outside of Pakistan? **
[/quote]
I did not mean to offend you. I was in doubt that if u were or not and I was expecting you to clear that out. I was right.
[quote]
Originally posted by Different:
** Pakistan claims to be an Islamic country, and Islam is same everywhere, whether you live in the Middle East or in Pakistan, Islam and its teachings do not change. But many Pakistanis inclusive of you think otherwise, most of the people in Pakistan believe that it is alright to practice their un Islamic traditions / cultures and claim yourself to be a Muslim at the same time, you also believe that being a Muslim is one thing and being a Pakistani is another. There isn’t a different Islam for the Pakistanis. My brother Pakistan uses Islam as an identity, and this is the core problem, you cannot claim to be a Muslim and follow man made laws that are against the laws of Allah. This is what is attracting the Wrath of Allah upon Pakistan and its people. Either we practice Islam completely or we stop claiming that ours is an Islamic Republic, we cannot mis-represent Islam, it is a serious issue which shouldn’t be ignored.
**
[/quote]
It would strongly be appreciated if you would stop assuming what I think or not as I don’t have the stamina nor the time to explain each of the misunderstanding u have developed and most imp of all I don’t consider it worth it. keep in reference to what I mention in my posts . Lets carry this discussion in a healthy & literary manner. Thanx
[quote]
Originally posted by Different:
** And, whether or not I have done something for Pakistan. I am not obliged to answer such questions. Not to you and not via this medium. **
[/quote]
Well u confidently say that u are not obliged to tell what u have done for pakistan(or its ppl) and on the other hand u are confidently BLAMING ALL THE PPL IN PAKISTAN for the bad things in the society? Why do I see two sides over here?
Bro Different, u want to meet up sometime in kfc or mc? Just to avoid this medium. Just to remind you that one of the main ideas behind having a discussion on pak.org is to share thoughts which cannot be said otherwise.
Just to encourage you, i will start with my contributions...first and foremost i have given pakistan 19 yrs of my life..:) i have taught in pak for quite some time(do i need to shed some light on the imp of education & needless to say how hard I worked)
and yes i did face some problems while i taught at a prof. Level(and being the youngest of all). but i consider it as a learning experience for myself which is part of prof. life in every society.
b/w if you would have been in my place, then you would start blaming pak, all its ppl and the uni in which u taught for the problems u faced..
have u ever heard the saying: a bad work man quarrels with his tools.
don't take the word bad seriously, its just a saying :)
PS. if u want proof of my teaching; let me know and i will be more then happy to provide that :)
i gave a several presentations with the purpose of creating awareness about the current state of our society.
[let me know if u need a copy of the presentations]
and don't get me wrong. i don't consider these contributions worth mentioning BUT they still do not give me the right to blame all the ppl of pak for the bad that exists in the society.
so for someone(which being u) who is so confident in blaming the ppl of pak must have done something really worth mentioning from which we all can learn and follow on ur footsteps.
hope this would help u to share ur contributions with us?
PS. I see you have have been visiting a lot sites for similar cases. As I mentioned earlier, if you could do a similar search for finding how the castes are classified.
***I dunno where I'm going. I dunno what for. But I'm making progress.
Brother Different,
Honestly and sincerely speaking, if u, me and most of the guppies over here start settling abroad. Then how do u expect our pak to progress and for those paki’s who are born in another country; under what authority do they blame all the ppl in pak? Its like u are blaming ur “so called” house for the bad things in it while u have spent ur whole life in another house. Tell me, U think blaming would help? You sound a well educated gentle man to me, don’t u think that if we(u, me and every other paki)sit down and find a solution to the problems that exist in our pakistan instead of blaming each other or the government. That has been one of the main reasons for the state OUR pakistan is into, nobody helps her, and wants to get out of there, I mean before asking **“what has my country done for me” *why don’t u consider the question *“ what have I done for my country” ..**we all have to equally play a role in order to make pak a better place to live in. We have to realize that no ones going to descend from the sky to get us out from the mess our pak is into.
[This message has been edited by heart beat (edited July 20, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by heart beat:
**
I know that castes in india are differentiated on the basis of sup/inf.
Now you claim that the caste system in india is the same as in pakistan(meaning castes existing in pakistan are also differentiated on the basis of superiority).
Keeping in view what u believe in; if you could classify the following pakistani castes on the basis of being superior/inferior(which according to u how it is in pakistan). I had asked u this before and I am asking u this again, as I will be more then happy to know something which I am not aware of. If u can do that we will call it a day. And the dinner would be on me; anywhere u want to.
My previous post:
quote:
Originally posted by heart beat:
Bro Different:
Also, just for my knowledge, could you please categorize the following castes
as superior or inferiorwhich are the terms which u used?
for ur convenience you can consider two imaginary columns i.e superior and inferior to divide the list.
mogul,jat,rajput,syed,sheikh,kashmiri
Have a good day!
**
[/quote]
Brother Heartbeat… These castes that you have mentioned are not **“the only castes” **that exist in Pakistan today. You are missing a lot over here, I suggest you pickup Sunday’s Dawn and open up the matrimonial section of the “national classified” and I am sure you will have a much larger listing of the castes that exist in Pakistan today. Mention all those you find there and then I will categorize the list for you. For the six castes that you have mentioned I can tell you the ranking of the few castes I know of, in descending order.
Rajput
Jat
Sheikh
Brother let me repeat, the caste system is deep rooted in the people who live in certain parts of the Indian sub continent, and the caste system existed before 1947, I wonder why you are having a problem in accepting this fact? If what you claim is true, then what you are saying is that the caste system that exists in Pakistan today came into existence after 1947. Is this what you want us to believe brother Heartbeat?
[quote]
Originally posted by heart beat:
**
I am not going to accept something just cause’ you or any other person says so. As mentioned earlier let me know how we will classify those castes and that would be it.
I wasn’t planning to bring this into this discussion, but now that you have mentioned about my sources I feel necessary that I should enlighten you with my sources which are as follow..(and yes I do trust and believe in them but if u have something else, I will be glad to hear it out)
*lived 19 yrs in pakistan
*visited “rural areas” in which the caste system is a major problem
*did a group research on the caste-system that exists in pakistan
now, that you know what my sources are, i will eagerly be waiting for ur sources?
I dunno where I'm going. I dunno what for. But I'm making progress.
**
[/quote]
Brother, The Daily Dawn is an English Daily read by literate people of Pakistan that reside in large cities of Pakistan, just pick up a copy and open up the matrimonial section of the classifieds and you can compare it with the matrimonial section of the classified from an Indian Daily newspaper. You don’t need to go to the rural areas of Pakistan to find out whether the caste-system of Pakistan is different than the caste system of India. In major-cities of Pakistan you have well educated Muslim people who are practicing the same un-Islamic traditions and cultures which are practiced by non-Muslims in India. By the way which rural-areas did you visit where the caste-system is a major problem?
India is much larger than Pakistan brother, you claim that “I know that castes in india are differentiated on the basis of sup/inf” Do you mind giving your source to this claim? Have you visited the places in India where the “caste-system” is practiced today? Have you lived in India brother? Did you do a group research on the “caste-system” that exists in India?
Brother I am very keen on knowing about your sources on this claim of yours.
[quote]
Originally posted by heart beat:
**
This country ???
Dude, it’s a piece of land. Its u, me who make it a country.
**
[/quote]
Brother it’s a piece of land that has a tag on it that reads “Islamic Republic”. Which means that this country represents Islam & Muslims and this is not true. Unless you and me are both implementing Islam, we cannot call this country an "Islamic Republic". I'll repeat what you said....*
[quote]
Originally posted by heart beat:
**
I see that now u are now blaming the governemnt of pak & the police for the corruption that exists in our society.. Bro different, in your first statement you were blaming ALL THE PPL OF PAK (GOOD OR BAD) where I disagreed with u. you seem to have changed ur opinion somehow. still **
[/quote]
Brother don’t twist the words here, I have not changed any opinion of mine, you want me to be explicit, and now you accuse me for changing my opinion? Do you want me to refer to all your previous posts and point to each and every statement you have made? I have tried to answer all your questions to the best of my knowledge, but you seem to ignore most of what I am saying, and are trying to unnecessarily argue with me "to prove your weak statement "i think the "caste" issue was brought in just to make the article more colourful(or an excuse).."
[quote]
Originally posted by heart beat:
**
Just tell me one thing…being a muslim & a pakistani do u blame urself too for the condition pakistan is into?
I dunno where I'm going. I dunno what for. But I'm making progress.
heart beat
**
[/quote]
If I ignore all that is happening, then I would blame myself too for Pakistan’s condition.
[quote]
Originally posted by heart beat:
**
I did not mean to offend you. I was in doubt that if u were or not and I was expecting you to clear that out. I was right.
**
[/quote]
Don’t lie brother Heartbeat, you were never in doubt, you know about my past, or are you claiming that you are so smart that you can make out where the person has lived his life after reading a response?
[quote]
Originally posted by heart beat:
**
It would strongly be appreciated if you would stop assuming what I think or not as I don’t have the stamina nor the time to explain each of the misunderstanding u have developed and most imp of all I don’t consider it worth it. keep in reference to what I mention in my posts . Lets carry this discussion in a healthy & literary manner. Thanx
**
[/quote]
Brother is it me or you who is having assumptions? Is it me or you who is involving my personal life in this issue? I should be the one to ask you to have a healthy discussion, instead you are accusing me for having assumptions about what you think? Do you want me to refer to what you have mentioned in your previous posts?
[quote]
Originally posted by heart beat:
**
Well u confidently say that u are not obliged to tell what u have done for pakistan(or its ppl) and on the other hand u are confidently BLAMING ALL THE PPL IN PAKISTAN for the bad things in the society? Why do I see two sides over here?
Bro Different, u want to meet up sometime in kfc or mc? Just to avoid this medium. Just to remind you that one of the main ideas behind having a discussion on pak.org is to share thoughts which cannot be said otherwise.
**
[/quote]
There are no two sides here, you have said this yourself that “one of the main ideas behind having a discussion on pak.org is to share thoughts which cannot be said otherwise”. Now if I tell you about what I have done, you would know who I am, so what’s the point in having a discussion on pak.org when the main ideas of having such discussions is lacking?
[quote]
Originally posted by heart beat:
**Just to encourage you, i will start with my contributions...first and foremost i have given pakistan 19 yrs of my life..:) i have taught in pak for quite some time(do i need to shed some light on the imp of education & needless to say how hard I worked)
and yes i did face some problems while i taught at a prof. Level(and being the youngest of all). but i consider it as a learning experience for myself which is part of prof. life in every society.
b/w if you would have been in my place, then you would start blaming pak, all its ppl and the uni in which u taught for the problems u faced..
have u ever heard the saying: a bad work man quarrels with his tools.
don't take the word bad seriously, its just a saying :)
PS. if u want proof of my teaching; let me know and i will be more then happy to provide that :)
i gave a several presentations with the purpose of creating awareness about the current state of our society.
[let me know if u need a copy of the presentations]
and don't get me wrong. i don't consider these contributions worth mentioning BUT they still do not give me the right to blame all the ppl of pak for the bad that exists in the society.
so for someone(which being u) who is so confident in blaming the ppl of pak must have done something really worth mentioning from which we all can learn and follow on ur footsteps.
hope this would help u to share ur contributions with us?
PS. I see you have have been visiting a lot sites for similar cases. As I mentioned earlier, if you could do a similar search for finding how the castes are classified.
I dunno where I'm going. I dunno what for. But I'm making progress.
heart beat
**
[/quote]
Brother I have referred to links that mention how the castes are classified, the articles from Pakistani newspapers also point out to the fact that the caste system in Pakistan is similar to the caste-system practiced in India. If you still believe otherwise, then I suggest you should take up your findings to all the newspapers in Pakistan first. Why don’t you send a copy of your presentations to the President of Pakistan? He will award you a medal for all your efforts.
[quote]
Originally posted by heart beat:
**
Brother Different,
Honestly and sincerely speaking, if u, me and most of the guppies over here start settling abroad. Then how do u expect our pak to progress and for those paki’s who are born in another country; under what authority do they blame all the ppl in pak? Its like u are blaming ur “so called” house for the bad things in it while u have spent ur whole life in another house. Tell me, U think blaming would help? You sound a well educated gentle man to me, don’t u think that if we(u, me and every other paki)sit down and find a solution to the problems that exist in our pakistan instead of blaming each other or the government. That has been one of the main reasons for the state OUR pakistan is into, nobody helps her, and wants to get out of there, I mean before asking “what has my country done for me” why don’t u consider the question “ what have I done for my country” ..we all have to equally play a role in order to make pak a better place to live in. We have to realize that no ones going to descend from the sky to get us out from the mess our pak is into.
[This message has been edited by heart beat (edited July 20, 2002).]
**
[/quote]
First of all, I never asked “what has my country done for me “, I wonder why are you going off the subject? Why is it not possible for you to stick to the topic? I can discuss all these issues that you are dragging into this, but separately, otherwise you will then accuse me for not having a healthy discussion.
Brother my father didn’t want to leave Pakistan, but he was forced to leave, you want to know why? Because even today those who migrated to Pakistan in 1947 are considered 2nd class citizens. People who fought for an independent Muslim state only to be with Muslim brothers are not considered 100% Pakistanis, they are still treated as aliens. Those who migrated to this piece of land, the only reason they sacrificed everything to come here is ISLAM, but when they came here they realized that they made a mistake. You know what happened to the Muslims of West Pakistan, don’t you? The people of Pakistan who claim to be Muslims are not aware of the basic teachings of Islam and they claim that theirs is an Islamic Republic? Whom are we trying to fool?
You say that I should be doing something for Pakistan instead of pointing out at mistakes, well do you think that people like you would allow me to do something for my country? NO, you have also accepted this, when you say this that “those paki’s who are born in another country; under what authority do they blame all the ppl in pak?” People like you will create obstacles for me instead of helping me, exactly the same way you are doing right now.
Pakistani’s are not united as Muslims should be, just by claiming yourself to be a Muslim doesn’t mean that you are, most of the people here are still influenced by the un-Islamic traditions and cultures of their fore-fathers and they are not willing to change and this is why they are in this terrible state today. There has to be a common interest between us, and unless there is a point on which we all agree upon, we may remain in this state forever. I don’t want to get into details here, you have stayed in Pakistan for “19 years” you should know its history.
Brother Heartbeat:
Honestly and sincerely speaking, first find out who is a 100% Pakistani, people like me who have lived abroad or people who have lived all their lives in Pakistan and have looted it with both hands? Be honest to yourself and you will find the answer to your question about “why blame the people in Pakistan?”
[quote]
Originally posted by heart beat:
**
It would strongly be appreciated if you would stop assuming what I think or not as I don’t have the stamina nor the time to explain each of the misunderstanding u have developed and most imp of all I don’t consider it worth it. keep in reference to what I mention in my posts . Lets carry this discussion in a healthy & literary manner. Thanx
**
[/quote]
vs
[quote]
Originally posted by heart beat:
**
b/w if you would have been in my place, then you would start blaming pak, all its ppl and the uni in which u taught for the problems u faced..
**
[/quote]
*
Tribal Rape Suspects Face Court
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hula.gif
TAKE YOUR BEST SHOT AT ME
[go to csmonitor.com’s homepage]
THERE IS A LESSON IN INDIANS AUDACITY OF EXTREMISM IN THE MIDST OF EMBRACING SCIENCE TECHNOLOGY & AMERICAN ISM FOR ECONOMIC REASON.THOSE THAT DERIDE THE JAMAATE ,MAUDOODI ,& ISLAMISTS ARE THEMSELVES ENCOURAGING UNILATERAL RADICALIZATION OF OUR NEIGBOUR.IF MURLI WANTS TO TEACH ASTROLOGY WITH MODIS NEWTON THEORY OF ACTION & REACTION BEING ALWAYS EQUAL & OPPOSITE WHY ISLAMIST CANT STRESS THE VALUE OF ALCOHOL PROHIBITION,CIRCUMSCISION,ABULATION ,PANJ NAMAZ,AND ITS POSITIVE EFFECT ON HEALTH ,PREVENTIVE MEDICINE,PUNCTULAITY ,DISCIPLINE ,HYGIENE ETC ALL CAN MUCH BETTER THAN DHOTI & TIKKA ,…WITH MODERN SCIENCE & EVOLVED IDEAS.
World Asia: South & Central
from the July 26, 2002 edition
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0726/csmimg/0726p1b.jpg
RISING POWER: L.K. Advani
C. N. RAO/AP/FILE
India’s leader-in-waiting fans Hindu nationalism
Colin Powell begins his tour of Asia this weekend with a stop in India and Pakistan.
By Robert Marquand | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
NEW DELHI ? To devotees, he is the savior of Hindu India: “as pure as the Gangotri, and as broad as the Ganges,” as one put it. To critics he is destroying the dreams and ideals of Mohandas Gandhi ? a dangerous fascist willing to risk riots and flames to hold power.
Either way, L.K. Advani, India’s new deputy prime minister ? and heir apparent to Prime Minister Vajpayee ? is clearly emerging as the Indian most responsible for the rise of nationalism here and for posing India as a force to be reckoned with.
i.gif
This weekend, US Secretary of State Colin Powell is set to visit India and Pakistan in a bid to reduce tensions between the two nuclear states, and discuss Kashmir. Mr. Advani has taken the lead for India with the US, voicing India’s frustration over cross-border violence. An urbane Brahmin born in Pakistan, a brilliant tactician, and leader of a quasi-secret elite Hindu order, Advani is the kind of leader the Bronx-born Mr. Powell has probably rarely met during his military career.
Advani became deputy prime minister in a recent cabinet reshuffle, a move that was rumored for months. During two intense border standoffs with Pakistan, talk in Delhi was that Advani ? who reportedly favored military action against Pakistan ? was gaining a foothold at the top. After a January trip to Washington to make India’s case, arguing an equivalence between Sept. 11 and cross-border terrorism with Pakistan, Advani’s status skyrocketed.
“We felt it was Advani who most stood up for India with the Americans,” said one official. “The Americans listened to him.”
Advani’s promotion early this month from home minister to the apex of power carries its own message: Analysts say it signals the ruling Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) is again pumping up a radical Hindu nationalist program called “Hindutva.” The move could further polarize multicultural India along religious and ethnic lines.
In the 1990s, BJP-led Hindutva excited voters with a message of martial vigor, a media campaign that featured Hindu gods, and an anti-Islamic slant that angered the 14 percent Muslim population.
Mainly due to a Hindu revival that Advani has devoted his life to, the character of India has changed in recent years. Since 1980, on a Hindutva platform, the BJP rose from a paltry four seats in parliament to ruling India. Only weeks after the BJP came to power in 1998, India tested a nuclear device, changing the geopolitics of South Asia.
Among the Indian middle class, the byproduct of Hindutva was a new discourse of muscular nationalism. In private schools, conferences, history books, clubs, camps, rallies, and popular TV series, a mix of Hindutva ideas and pro-India bravado altered the dialogue here.
Ultimately, Hindutva represented a powerful new elixir in a country whose corrupt Congress Party was seen as ineptly mouthing the words of Gandhi’s nonviolent independence revolution.
Yet today, BJP is flagging in the polls. Insiders feel the party is hamstrung by its moderate coalition partners. Hardliners want the BJP to break free from the ruling coalition and capture office on an uncompromising and sharper pro-Hindu agenda. From Advani, they want someone who will take charge, speak for their interests, and train a set of more devout Hindu cadres.
“With Advani at the top, the signal is that BJP will use the Hindu card for its political furtherance,” says an observer with close ties to the ruling party. “The feeling is that in coming months, it is now or never.”
Radical ethnic views?
Advani first cut loose with a full-scale Hindutva agenda in 1992. His attention-getting theatrics included dressing up as a Hindu saint and touring India, posing with a drawn bow and arrow. Prior to that, he was India’s minister for broadcasting in the short-lived Janata Party in the late 1970s.
Advani was arrested in 1992 after a months-long pro-Hindu campaign that led to the destruction of a mosque in Ayodyha, sparking bloody riots across India. The event has been a controversial epicenter of Indian politics since.
But Advani has always turned setbacks into gains. By 1998, he became the powerful home minister in charge of security. Now, he is a half-step closer to the throne.
“Advani is the man of the hour, and he is the man of the future,” says Dewedi Vireshawer, Delhi spokesman for the VHP, a right-wing Hindu group. “He is the man who took the BJP into the hearts of the Indian people. He is the next natural choice for us.”
However, such feelings are not echoed by those who feel the logic of a Hindu revival will lead the country toward ethnic strife.
“Advani can voice your bias and prejudices in a way that makes you feel justified about hating,” says a liberal Hindu executive at a multinational firm in Delhi. “Frankly, I fear the man. I fear he will easily mesmerize the middle class and the urban voters in order to hold power.”
Advani, in a Monitor interview earlier this year, denies that he backs radical behavior, saying that India’s real problem is Pakistani-instigated terror. “As one sworn to uphold the Indian constitution … I feel a secular approach is the only right way to conduct politics in India. But it doesn’t serve my adversaries to highlight that. It serves them to say if I came to power, we would have a Hindutva state.”
Critics counter that Advani uses the language of modern secular politics with elites and foreigners, while saving his Hindutva message for the home crowd. Look what Advani does, not what he says, they argue.
Early this month, they point out, Advani was to travel to Gujarat, scene of bloody Hindu-Muslim clashes this spring, to speak at rally of Hindu radicals. Only a condemnation by India’s National Human Rights Commissioner, Verma, caused Advani to cancel his trip.
That Hindu forces are stoking the fires is seen in the appointment of one Vinay Katiyar to head the BJP in the crowded “cow-belt” state of Uttar Pradesh. Mr. Katiyar, a hand-picked protégé of Advani, has led a radical Bajrang Dal Hindu youth army, a group that has attacked Muslims and Christians. He is now member of parliament from Ayodhya, and is fighting to put a Hindu temple over the destroyed mosque.
Hindu groups have long backed Advani as prime minister. But the BJP’s coalition partners chafe at the idea of a hardliner at the helm. They prefer the more genial temperament of Mr. Vajpayee. Yet by accepting a deputy prime minister slot, Advani has dared the coalition to break up the government over what amounts to only a half-step closer to the top job.
A major sign of Advani’s clout is the ongoing rise of the most powerful of Hindu groups, the Rashtriya Swayamsewak Sangh, or RSS. The RSS, made up mainly of Brahmin-caste members, operates as a ruling elite in a broad network or “family” of Hindu groups, known as the Sangh Parivar.
The RSS is a “metapolitical” organization, say its backers. Those who study it point to its roots in turn-of-the-century Aryan fascism. The BJP has been described by RSS leaders as a “front” for their agenda.
In the RSS view, the beloved motherland of India ? messy, chaotic, and blessed with an astute population that leads the world in software writing but is seemingly cursed with an inability to organize well ? needs the kind of systematic discipline their organization alone can provide. Only with a strong Hindu hand can India emerge as the leader of nations that RSS members feel it should be. The RSS would free India from a mentality of subversion and impotence they say was imposed by Muslim invaders, and then British colonialists.
In RSS camps, youngsters are drilled in physical exercise. But according to D.R. Goyal, a former RSS member, this is "much more than a physical routine… It is a psychological drill leading to total surrender of the individual personality to what the RSS establishment [calls] ‘the ideal.’ "
At ease with the old and young
On June 20, 1942, a 14-year-old Advani attended an RSS lecture in Karachi that changed his life. The subject: Hindutva.
Within a year, young Advani would meet M.S. Golwalker, arch-guru of the RSS. Mr. Golwalker’s photo now hangs in all RSS schools, and his writings on the superiority of Hindu culture, and the need to remove from India the influence of non-Hindus, Muslims, and Christians included, lie at the core of RSS belief.
Ten years before meeting Advani, Golwalker had written: “This great Hindu Race professes its illustrious Hindu Religion, the only religion in the world worthy of being so denominated … Guided by this religion … the Race evolved a culture which despite the degenerating contact with the debased ‘civilizations’ of the Mussalmans and the Europeans… is still the noblest in the world.” (Golwalker’s books, including the RSS bible, “Bunch of Thoughts,” are on sale at BJP headquarters in Delhi.)
Advani at first flirted with an engineering career. But after RSS Officers Training Camp in Indore and then Ahmedabad, he committed himself to the cause. By 1947, the year India was partitioned, Advani was chief of the Karachi RSS intellectual cell; 10 days before the epic and bloody partition of India, Advani became the RSS head in Karachi. On that day, coincidentally enough, Golwalker met him on a tour of what would soon become Pakistan.
Advani is regarded as someone unusually attuned to RSS rhythms. Supporters point out he works 15- to 16-hour days; journalists marvel that he can stand for hours on end giving speeches and talks, holding meetings, and never seeming to tire.
“Advani is the incarnation of RSS ideology,” argues Christophe Jaffrelot, author of the comprehensive study, “The Hindu Nationalist Movement in India.” He sits as easily with bearded other-worldly Hindu sadus or “saints,” as with groomed executives of India’s high-tech corporations. He can talk the language of fundamentalism with the old guard, but is contemporary with India’s sophisticated young.
In his spare but imposingly spacious Delhi office, Advani is relaxed and wears his power lightly. He smiles, cracks jokes, and says he wants to watch the movie “Pearl Harbor,” but hasn’t had time for a film since “Titanic.”
He stays away from the religious vernacular. But he states, "People fear that if I come to power I will annex Pakistan. Now Pakistan and India are two sovereign countries. But I do concede that a day may come, and a day will come, when both countries and their leaders and people will realize that partition did not help either of them, and perhaps a confederation of the two countries will be in the best interest. I look forward to that day.
“There was a time when the two Germanys could not think of living together.”
Wohi Hota Hai Jo Munzoore Khuda Hota Hai …:nahnah:
Experts want law enacted to check barbaric customs
Bureau Report
PESHAWAR, July 28: The tribal custom of handing over girls for settling feuds could be checked with the implementation of existing laws, enactment of a law prohibiting this practice and increasing education facilities in rural areas , said legal experts and human rights activists.
**
“People sacrifice their women relatives, specially daughters and sisters, to save themselves, which is a barbaric custom,” **said Qazi Mohammad Jamil, a former judge of the Peshawar High Court and ex-attorney general of Pakistan.
He said although none of the laws in Pakistan allowed such brutal customs, there should be a law clearly prohibiting such acts and compromises like that of Mianwali deal.
The chairperson of Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, Afrasiab Khattak, told Dawn: **“Due to weak governance extra-judicial forums like Jirgas and Panchayat have cropped up, which have taken upon themselves to decide fate of an individual.” **
Such forums, he added, were tilted in favour of the dominant segments of the society and were against the vulnerable groups and weaker sections specially women.
A member of the National Commission on the Status of Women, Bushra Gohar, said there should be a law for curbing barbaric customs like sacrificing girls for settling disputes. However, she believed that implementation of laws was more important as laws were already available in Pakistan. She said media played an important role in highlighting inhuman traditions which had crept into our society due to ignorance.
She said the commission would take up this issue in its forthcoming meeting to be held in Quetta on Aug 9.
Further dilating on the issue, Qazi Jamil said: “Marriage is a sacred contract in which the consent of both a boy and a girl is mandatory. Through the practice of handing over girls to rival parties for settling disputes the law of contract has been violated.”
The former attorney general said the inhuman practice could not be justified on any ground as Islam also did not permit such acts.
Apart from lack of specific law for dealing with the issue, Mr Jamil pointed out the aspect of ignorance in the society which gave birth to such customs, stating that the government should pay heed to educating the masses in rural areas. Moreover, he said the NGOs and social workers should also divert their attention towards rural areas instead of remaining confined to urban centres.
Afrasiab Khattak regretted that due to ignorance and lack of education, tribal and patriarchal traditions had been holding sway over the law. He pointed out that the family laws were not implemented as under the law marriage was a contract and the rights and obligations of the parties should be observed. “Giving a girl in marriage for ending blood-feuds is violative of the law,” he maintained.
Mr Khattak also supported the contentions of Mr Jamil that ignorance was the root-cause of such customs and unless the society was made aware about such acts, enactment of a law alone could not check these vices. “Unless there is a rule of law on every level such things will continue to occur,” he added.
http://www.dawn.com/2002/07/29/nat16.htm