i am not saying anything blashphmous.
muslim and islam is two different things.
BC
MC
stupid people
[quote]
Originally posted by rvikz:
i am not saying anything blashphmous.
muslim and islam is two different things.
[/quote]
To quote Shaw, Islam is the best religion and Muslims are the worst followers.
Well, not all Muslims are worst followers
I worst news one can hear!I still wonder if those men were even muslims or not! They r such a disgrace for the whole muslim community!
I just wonder why U.S. is so much interested in this. I mean such practices r almost regularly carried out in India, and hardly anyone mentions it!
" CAN U FEEL IT! "
[quote]
Originally posted by Sharafat_Ka_Namouna:
**
I just wonder why U.S. is so much interested in this. I mean such practices r almost regularly carried out in India, and hardly anyone mentions it!
**
[/quote]
Oh please dont start another indian-pakistan forum war. This tragic event happened in Pakistan and we should leave india and USA out of it. FYI not only USA but the whole world was interested in the story, mainly of the publicity given world wide.
bad things should come out weather it is india or pakistan . international focus
and opinion on the side of opressed is
good . it makes the local authorities realise
someone is watching.
[quote]
Originally posted by Different:
** Did I ever blame Islam for supporting the "caste system"? Its the Muslims who have customized Islam to suit their needs, and I blame them for accepting the "caste system". And yes I am very angry and I do hate them for what they've been doing.
**
[/quote]
if u don't blame islam then plz avoid using the word Muslims. Muslism is a very broad term when used in ur post. By using this u are blaming the muslims(good and bad). we are talking about a society which consists of muslims among which there are some so called muslims which are under discussion. big diff!
a third person looking at ur post would assume that u are blaming muslims and consequently islam. is this ur intention?
***I dunno where I'm going. I dunno what for. But I'm making progress.
[quote]
Originally posted by Different:
** Just because the media exposed this issue, it does not mean that this is the first incident of its kind that took place in Pakistan. If the Government of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan is unable to convey the simple message that "the caste system" is UnIslamic, then they are to be blamed too.
**
[/quote]
why do u bring ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF PAKISTAN everywhere!!!! yes u are right..i am sure many such incidences occur ... and pakistan is NOT THE only place where they occur
the government is NOT enforcing caste system on its ppl. even the basic laws are not fully implemented in all parts of pak and u talk about caste system.
and when the GOVERNMENT WOULD ENFORCE that no caste system is allowed..then ppl will complain that the government is forcing them to forget their ethnic background and i don't what else crap they will come up with.
AND then u will be the first one to say that ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF PAKISTAN is not a democratic country.
well .. ppl can twist caste system or anything else to whatever they want. they can consider it as source for learning about their forefathers or they can use it as a means of degrading others. ITS THEIR CHOICE.
is it necessary that ppl will only behave themselves if they have a danda[law] on their head!!
to some extent these things should be taught at home and its the responsibilty of the parents to show their children the right direction.
u can't blame the government for everything u see. YOU PPL MAKE THE GOVERNMENT. U SELECT THE GOVERNMENT. ever heard: **"its ppl's government, for the ppl, by the ppl" **if u are that concerned then u get my idea!
AND nooww plzz don't confuse caste system with feudalism.
[quote]
Originally posted by Different:
** And people who have committed this "sad and shocking" incident in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, should be stoned in public, even life-imprisonment is not enough for these creatures.
**
[/quote]
that would be the only point on which i will agree which u.
[quote]
Originally posted by Different:
*My main point is that "The Islamic Republic of Pakistan" should be referred to as "Republic of Pakistan"! Because we are not representing Islam! We have Muslims committing "SHIRK" openly and yet we find the "maulvi's" and the Muslim Government silent...! *
[/quote]
just answer one question:
no offence should to be taken
should we stop calling u a muslim IF u don't abide by **all the teachings of islam?**
***I dunno where I'm going. I dunno what for. But I'm making progress.
[quote]
Originally posted by heart beat:
** if u don't blame islam then plz avoid using the word Muslims. Muslism is a very broad term when used in ur post. By using this u are blaming the muslims(good and bad). we are talking about a society which consists of muslims among which there are some so called muslims which are under discussion. big diff!
a third person looking at ur post would assume that u are blaming muslims and consequently islam. is this ur intention?
**
[/quote]
If the good Muslims allow the bad Muslims to do whatever they like, under the umbrella of Islam, then it implies that the good Muslims accept what the bad Muslims are doing. Good Muslims are therefore equal to the bad Muslims. You claim that there are some "so called MUSLIMS" who practice the "caste system", but most "MUSLIMS" do not, if this is true, then why is it that most Muslims cannot stop some "so called Muslims" from practicing it? Or why can't most MUSLIMS condemn those people who practice the "caste system" and say that they are "so called MUSLIMS" so please do not mistake them for MUSLIMS.
I am not blaming Islam, directly or indirectly. Please refrain from assuming.
[quote]
Originally posted by heart beat:
** why do u bring ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF PAKISTAN everywhere!!!! yes u are right..i am sure many such incidences occur ... and pakistan is NOT THE only place where they occur
the government is NOT enforcing caste system on its ppl. even the basic laws are not fully implemented in all parts of pak and u talk about caste system.
and when the GOVERNMENT WOULD ENFORCE that no caste system is allowed..then ppl will complain that the government is forcing them to forget their ethnic background and i don't what else crap they will come up with.
AND then u will be the first one to say that ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF PAKISTAN is not a democratic country.
well .. ppl can twist caste system or anything else to whatever they want. they can consider it as source for learning about their forefathers or they can use it as a means of degrading others. ITS THEIR CHOICE.
is it necessary that ppl will only behave themselves if they have a danda[law] on their head!!
to some extent these things should be taught at home and its the responsibilty of the parents to show their children the right direction.
u can't blame the government for everything u see. YOU PPL MAKE THE GOVERNMENT. U SELECT THE GOVERNMENT. ever heard: "its ppl's government, for the ppl, by the ppl" if u are that concerned then u get my idea!
AND nooww plzz don't confuse caste system with feudalism.
**
[/quote]
Whether it happens anywhere else or not, my concern is that it should not happen in any country that uses ISLAM as its identity.
If it happens in "The Republic of Pakistan" its a different issue, but not in "The ISLAMIC Republic of Pakistan". The leaders and people of this country are mis-representing Islam, and this is not acceptable. "its ppl's government, for the ppl, by the ppl", then it should be The People's Republic of Pakistan, DO YOU GET THE IDEA?? STOP using ISLAM, you are only attracting the wrath of ALLAH swt by mis-representing Islam and Muslims.
Since you said that it is the responsibility of the parents to teach this in their homes, the same way, the Pakistani Government is the parent for all those who live in it, and it is the responsibility of The Pakistani Government to show the right direction to its citizens and teach them the true meaning of "La Ilaha IllAllah" there is nothing more basic than this, and if this is not possible for the government of this country then, the only solution is to take the Islamic out and replace it with People's. Since its the people who choose everything and it has nothing to do with Islam... I hope you get the idea,..!
[quote]
Originally posted by heart beat:
just answer one question:
**no offence should to be taken
should we stop calling u a muslim IF u don't abide by **all the teachings of islam?**
**
[/quote]
There are Hadith which deal with this question specifically, you should not have a problem in understanding and identifying those actions that take you outside Islam.
[quote]
Originally posted by SaadiaB:
** Oh please dont start another indian-pakistan forum war. This tragic event happened in Pakistan and we should leave india and USA out of it. FYI not only USA but the whole world was interested in the story, mainly of the publicity given world wide.
**
[/quote]
I don't think u understand what I meant to say, u tell me is this the first time that something like this has happened in Pak?
Sharafat_Ka_Namouna,
I think it's clear what I meant. Anyway this was not the first time that such an event took place in Pakistan and as long as there will be human beings unfortunatly such things and even more awfull events will allways happen. Well what purpose do you have to drag India and USA into it, its our national problem that we should solve by ourselfs, I hope its clear now.
The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan recently issued a report estimating that ** a woman is raped every two hours in Pakistan.** Most cases go unreported due to the social stigma attached to the crime and the hindrances in laws governing admissible evidence in rape cases. ** In Punjab alone, a woman is raped every six hours and a woman is gang-raped every four days, yet only 321 rape cases were reported **to the police last year, the report said.
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan, July 7 — Mukhtaran Mai says she begged for mercy when four men dragged her into a hut and raped her. Standing outside, hundreds of villagers cheered and laughed to the girl’s screams. Mukhtaran’s rape has shocked many in this nation of 140 million - especially because it was ordered by her village elders. And a month after the ordeal, human rights groups and women’s organizations have banded together to press the Pakistani government to end brutal tribal justice.
WHEN MUKHTARAN’S father heard her screams in the village of Meerwala, he rushed to rescue his daughter. The same crowd that cheered the rape watched as the victim was forced to walk naked back to her home.
“I was dragged by the people, I begged them not to do this, I begged them to stop, but they would not. My uncle and my father tried to stop them but they did not stop,” Mukhtaran said in an interview.
Mukhtaran’s agony began on June 22 in the Pakistani province of Punjab, when a panchayat, or tribal council, convened to determine the fate of her ** 11-year old brother, who was seen walking in the fields with a girl of the higher caste Matsoi tribe.**
** In a village like Meerwala, such an act is considered a great dishonor to the entire tribe.** The boy’s father tried to convince the council that his son had done no wrong. He even volunteered for his son to marry the girl in question and wed his own daughter to one of the Matsoi men. ** The council, however, could not allow a Matsoi girl to marry a lower caste male.**
After two hours of deliberation, the council ordered a ruthless punishment. Four Matsoi tribesmen, also members of the judicial council, were told to inflict dishonor on the family by raping Mukhtaran.
Recounting that day, Mukhtaran says she fell to her knees, crying and weeping. She said she appealed to the council members’ morality, reminding them that she taught their daughters to read the Koran. “But they tore my clothes and raped me, one by one,” Mukhtaran told a local news agency.
Police have called the tribal verdict illegal, but Pakistan’s tradition of tribal justice — in which dignity reigns above all — sometimes makes law enforcement officials powerless to intervene.
The entire village had congregated to witness the rape, but the police were nowhere to be seen. The incident went unreported until earlier this month when the national newspapers broke the story.
SUPREME COURT ACTS
The Pakistani Supreme Court took notice of Mukhtaran’s story and called a hearing on the case. Chief Justice Sheikh Riaz Ahmed summoned the top police and government officials of the region. During the hearing on July 5, the Supreme Court questioned the efficiency of the police and gave them a strict warning. The police were also instructed to submit weekly reports to the court on their investigation into the case.
“The judicial concern for this shocking incident is very apparent,” said Law Minister Khalid Ranjha.
The case has also brought international attention, and demands by the private Human Rights Commission of Pakistan that the government move to end tribal laws.
On behalf of Pakistan’s president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, Women Affairs Minister Attiya Inayatullah gave Mukhtaran 500,000 rupees ($8,200) as compensation. Inayatullah informed the family that the president had ordered that a school be built in the village in the victim’s name. ** Mukhtaran responded by offering her compensation money to found a school for girls in Meerwala. Her parents donated a plot their land for the same purpose.**
With the next Supreme Court hearing set for July 11, the police are conducting raids all over the region, in search of the accused. To exert pressure, the police have detained several relatives of the accused. Two of the four suspected rapists have surrendered, and police detained a further two men on Sunday.
“When the accused are captured, their crime is punishable by death,” said law minister Ranjha. ** “The laws are strict, but it is the implementation that is the problem.”**
The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan recently issued a report estimating that ** a woman is raped every two hours in Pakistan.** Most cases go unreported due to the social stigma attached to the crime and the hindrances in laws governing admissible evidence in rape cases. ** In Punjab alone, a woman is raped every six hours and a woman is gang-raped every four days, yet only 321 rape cases were reported **to the police last year, the report said.
These morons should be hanged, so that it would be a lesson for the others who intend committ such crimes.
Bro Different:
I don't think if there is any point of going any further as we seem to be moving in circles, and we both seem to fail to understand each other's point.
B/w You seem to be a very concerned citizen of Pakistan. I would honestly like to know
what have been your contributions for making Paksitan a better place to live in? I am sure
we all can learn from your experience.
i would sincerely like to know if you have actually had a personal experience related
this caste system, as your posts(in both the threads) seem to be under the influence of that experience. ofcourse, if and only if, you are willing to share it then we will be glad to listen to it.
Also, just for my knowledge, could you please categorize the following castes
as superior or inferiorwhich are the terms which u used?
for ur convenience you can consider two imaginary columns i.e superior and inferior to divide the list.
mogul,jat,rajput,syed,sheikh,kashmiri
Have a good day!
***I dunno where I'm going. I dunno what for. But I'm making progress.
[quote]
Originally posted by heart beat:
***Bro Different:*
I don't think if there is any point of going any further as we seem to be moving in circles, and we both seem to fail to understand each other's point.
B/w You seem to be a very concerned citizen of Pakistan. I would honestly like to know
what have been your contributions for making Paksitan a better place to live in? I am sure
we all can learn from your experience.
i would sincerely like to know if you have actually had a personal experience related
this caste system, as your posts(in both the threads) seem to be under the influence of that experience. ofcourse, if and only if, you are willing to share it then we will be glad to listen to it.
Also, just for my knowledge, could you please categorize the following castes
as superior or inferiorwhich are the terms which u used?
for ur convenience you can consider two imaginary columns i.e superior and inferior to divide the list.
mogul,jat,rajput,syed,sheikh,kashmiri
Have a good day!
**
[/quote]
Brother Heartbeat,
Please read this, although it is a part of the article which is posted on this very thread, it has the answer about the point you are denying, that "this issue has nothing to do with the caste system"
**Mukhtaran’s agony began on June 22 in the Pakistani province of Punjab, when a panchayat, or tribal council, convened to determine the fate of her 11-year old brother, who was seen walking in the fields with a girl of the higher caste Matsoi tribe.
In a village like Meerwala, such an act is considered a great dishonor to the entire tribe. The boy’s father tried to convince the council that his son had done no wrong. He even volunteered for his son to marry the girl in question and wed his own daughter to one of the Matsoi men. The council, however, could not allow a Matsoi girl to marry a lower caste male.
After two hours of deliberation, the council ordered a ruthless punishment. Four Matsoi tribesmen, also members of the judicial council, were told to inflict dishonor on the family by raping Mukhtaran.**
And regarding your other questions, do you mind explaining how the "I" becomes "We" ? Do **you **represent everyone on this forum?
Q "I **would honestly like to know
what have been your contributions for making Paksitan a better place to live in? I am sure
**we all can learn from your experience."
Q "**i **would sincerely like to know if you have actually had a personal experience related this caste system, as your posts(in both the threads) seem to be under the influence of that experience. ofcourse, if and only if, you are willing to share it then **we **will be glad to listen to it."
You support the caste system, you should have more knowledge on which castes are considered to be "superior" and which inferior, in other words which castes are considered as being "high" caste and which are considered as "low" caste.
My concern is that, the "caste-system" contradicts "Islamic-Teachings" and since many Muslims have no problems in practicing the "caste-system" even today, the Government of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan is obliged to educate its citizens that following and/or practicing a culture or tradition that contradicts Islamic Teachings is not permitted for Muslims. Whoever follows and/or practices such cultures and traditions is in fact committing "SHIRK", and Allah does not forgive "SHIRK".
If the "Government" of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan cannot convey the real meaning of "La Ilaha IllAllah" since doing that would disturb the "social infrastructure" of this country, then the Government should stop using the word "Islamic" and replace it with "Peoples" since it is the people who choose what is right and what is wrong in this country, not Islam. This implies that this is actually a "Peoples Republic", not even close to being an "Islamic Republic".
i already read this article. what are u trying to prove by posting the same article again and again. ur arguments were what i was looking for. by posting it again and again won’t help.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
PS. that doesn’t mean that i expect u to post ur arguments again. i have already read them.
“we” was in particular used as everybody can learn from something good u did for ur country .*
but if it helps u then i have been receiving pm’s relating to this. no need to go into the details.
now that u know, would u be willing to enlighten us with ur experience
by ur saying this i won’t start supporting it. if u do then good for u. i in the first place did not believe in the superiority or inferioty of the castes. i said unlike the indian castes these reflect the ethnic background of ppl. and in response to that u said:
now who brought the inferior/superior thing/and who supports the caste systemm…*
by reading this and similar posts from you it gives me an impression that u are well versed in castes. which is why i asked you.
PS. i just noticed in this post of urs that you asked me to do my homework. dude, u are the on who has spent all his life in middle east. and now after going through a bad patch in life u having started blaming a country who has got nothing to do with it.
B/w u mentioned in ur post if i represented everybody(the reason for which i have already mentioned), now Bros Different, honestly tell me if u have the authority to blame all the muslims(or ppl of pakistan)?
bottom line…
the main point where i disagree with u is when u BLAME ALL THE MUSLIMS IN islamic republic of PAKISTAN. all i am saying is that you or any other pakistani has no right to blame all the ppl(muslims;good/bad & the minorities) in pakistan for the bad things that exist in the society. specially this coming from a person who has spent all of his life in middle east; it doesn’t
sound reasonable. positive criticism is something different, which should always be
welcomed. this pakistan is the same country which will accept u when u will have to leave the middle east country/or any other country u are staying in…learn to love ur country..
if i do agree with u that all muslim/pakistanis should be blamed, then u are equally to be blamed which is why i asked you what have u done for pakistan
***I dunno where I’m going. I dunno what for. But I’m making progress.