taqleed

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

Taqlid I understand is a very basic concept in both sunni and shia faith. I’ve had some discussions lately, and it emerges that in shia thought, there are some flavours that differ from my understanding of it.

Im interested in hearing from my Sunni brothers/sisters what their understanding of taqlid is. Allow me to qualify my request, Im interested in hearing from Sunni posters, and not later offshoots like wahhabi, ahmedi, both of which are represented on this forum. This is not because you’re necessarily wrong in your beliefs, its just that you probably do not have the information im interested in. If it makes things more explicit, I would like to hear the views of people who follow a sunni mazhab from one of the 4 Imams.

Im sorry I have to be so a.retentive about it, but somehow it seems to be necessary on this forum.

2

i'd also be interested in quranic/hadith-based justifications for taqlid and its process..

3

i was reading karen armstrong's "the battle for God" yesterday, and she mentions that fearing to lose the old traditions, Sunni scholars (i forgot the exact timeline but i think it was after the destruction of baghdad by the mongols) declared that the door for ijtihad had been closed and people have to look back at the traditions of the older generations to find solutions for the problems that arise....
this is what is termed as taqleed....
i.e. stop critical thinking to find solutions to current problems and instead look up their solutions in the traditions of the scholars of the past and in the fiqh that they had written down....

P.S. ahmedis r not sunnis, and no sunni considers them as muslims even....
so dont mix them up with sunnis....

also note that i am not a believer of taqlid and at the same time do not oppose those who wish to follow old traditions....
hence i am not giving u my opinion on the matter....

4

as i understand it, armughal, taqleed existed before the invasion, and as did ijtihad. both were/are complementary concepts. during the invasion, only ijtihad was closed, taqleed wasnt introduced at that time. ijtihad for example, exists in shias too, as does taqleed...way before the invasion.

anyway.. thanks for your opinion.

in passing, i dont mix ahmedis with sunnis, not anymore than wahhabis. i was just saying that both are represented in this forum, and both might be tempted to respond. i just wish to save them the trouble of doing so.

5

This is a very complex concept and cannot be explained by a few words. In simple taqleed is absolutely necessary for unity of a people otherwise the organised religion fails to remain organised any more if people were allowed to live by their own opinions and go their own ways.

Islam is no longer an organised religion, for it has been disbanding for a very long time now. It is nearing its other extreme by now whereby it is becoming more and more a matter of personal faith like all other religions.

What some muslims every now and again try to do is react to this trend for change but each time they fail because the world has to move on.

It is possible to form a group but each group after a while must disintegrate because that is the way things work eg look at a family how it starts as a unit and after a while people begin to split up ie children leave their parental homes as they grow and start life on their own forming new family units etc etc. Just as after this splitting it is not posible to go back in time so it is not possible to recreated the original unity of a group.

Islam evolved into what it is today but many people fail to grasp the concept. They have this very wrong notion of it being fixed for ever. It was never fixed even when the prophet was alive, for quran kept on changing with time. Likewise need for changing with time brought about the hadith and so the fiqh came about for the very same reason. All this because dynamicity of the world could not be stopped and it cannot be stopped. People must learn to move with time and time waits for no one, instead the time leaves them behind in the dustbin of the history.

So those who understand that islam was never fixed but evolved with time have none or little problem adjusting themselves and their religious teachings but those who think islam to be stuck in the 7th century Arabia are having problems because they cannot turn back the clock and they cannot live by todays standards for civilisation.

In todays world it is important for muslims to unite in modernity than antiquity. Following this idea will help their unity but trying turning back the tide will destroy them. Unfortunately most muslims lack education to realise which way they should go.

6

//In todays world it is important for muslims to unite in modernity than antiquity. Following this idea will help their unity but trying turning back the tide will destroy them. Unfortunately most muslims lack education to realise which way they should go.
//

Nobody could have put it better. It is time that the muslims stopped living in the 7th century. It is time that they stopped looking into the past and crib about the lost golden age. If they have to progress, they have to look at where they are today. Inspite of having an abundance of natural resources not one country can stand upto what is right.

7

**Forewarn:**I’m a Muslim, not a shia, not a sunni, not a wahabi, not ahmedi, not braveli neither do I belong to may of the other sects which I have not menioned here. I’m just a Muslim If you the thread operner or any one else is still interested to read, go ahead otherwise you may ignore what I’ve to say.

Background
Personaly I’ve been rasied in the part of the world where you mostly the children are tought that we follow [do taqleed] an Imam. I liked to be do do good sins and it didnt matter to me whom I follow as long as I was doing the good thing. As I grew up differnt questions started raising in my mind like:
- What is an Imam?
- Who appointed him as an Imam?
- Why do I follow the perticular Imam that I do?
- Suppose if I was born in the part of the life where some other Imam was followed would I ever followed the Imam I’m following right now?
- What the sources of the Islam?
- One Quran one Prophet why four Imams with difference in the Salat or anything else?
- Why dont we have the fifth Imam?
- If Imams were all that Important what then happned to the Muslims after the fourth Imam?
and may others… …

I started looking for the answers never found any which would satisfied my heart. This state of mind any many other things led me away from Islam and for several year I didnt say a single salat. However whenever I was having some problem or some happiness I would pass comments such as “Thank Allah [swt]”, “if Allah [swt] wishes” and many other such things. I found my self at a place where the social/cultural behavriour has overtaken my way of living. As ignorant I was and am It didnt matter what was right or wrong.

Latter the dissatisfaction of my heart increased to such an extent that I cant describe in words. I wanted to have peace, tried all various things company of friends, staying at home, reading, music, dance parties, movies, smoking, drugs name the thing and I’ve done it. For what? to increase the disatisfaction of my heart. The only thing left was the religion. But I was still reluctant to get into controversies.

Having no option left I went to pray one day, and the ‘muazin’ [call-maker] would praise Muhammad [s] before the ‘azan’ and the people saying prayers would prise Muhammad [s] after the ‘salat’. Why they would do it I didnt know but since it was in Arabic I thought it was a part of Islam. The good point was the Imam who would led the prayer in the mosque has a beautiful Qirat. Amazingly I found the peace of my heart. I started to fell better all of a sudden.

I would go to meet friends and there I would find the muazin not praising Muhammad [s] neither did the people praying would do that after the salat. Again I found my self in a paradoxical situation which has kept me away from it.

Allah [swt] had his blessings on me. I finally decided to find the truth my self. I would go to Imams of the mosques, my friends, read books and try to find the things. Here is what I found: … … … … … [to be continued]

8

as i understand it the idea of ijtihad is to allow ulema to reinterpret religion and keep it apace with changing times. and taqleed allows the lay person to follow the interpretation of someone who is qualified to interpret the religion. you need to attain certain religious qualification in order to do ijtihad.

the basic difference btwn shia and sunnis in this matter is that in mainstream sunnis ijtihad stopped with the four imams. however, i understand that the reasons and concepts of ijtihad and taqlid remain the same in both sects.

which i why im asking two things
- is my understanding of taqlid/ijtihad correct from a sunni perspective.
- what is the quranic/hadith justification of these concepts?

9

[my previous post continues]
Sources of Islam
To my finding, the only two sources of the Islam are the Quran & Sunnah [hadith]. You see all the Imams and the Musim scholars are highly respectable but they did/do/wil not get revelations from Allah [swt]. Allah[swt] sent the Quran for us and Prophet [s] told many things why then we ignore these two sources?

O you who believe! Obey Allâh and obey the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allâh and His Messenger (SAW), if you believe in Allâh and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination. [The Noble Qur’ân 4:59]

The messenger of Allah (saaws) said: O mankind, I am leaving two things with you, if you cling to them you will never go astray. The Book of Allah and my way of life. [Al-Haakim and Al-Baihaqi].

And at many other places such things are told the the Ummah.

Do I follow any perticular Imam
May Allah [swt] forgives me for the ingnorance. I dont follow any perticular Imam. You see all the Imam are equally important and respectuful. How, then, I can distinguish them as being more/less pious and follow the one I choose to?

Abu Haneefah (rahimahullaah) said:
“When a hadeeth is found to be saheeh, then that is my madhhab.” [Ibn 'Aabideen in al-Haashiyah (1/63) and in his essay Rasm al-Mufti (1/4 from the Compilation of the Essays of Ibn 'Aabideen), Shaikh Saalih al-Fulaani in Eeqaaz al-Himam (p. 62) and others. Ibn 'Aabideen quoted from Sharh al-Hidaayah by Ibn al-Shahnah al-Kabeer, the teacher of Ibn al-Humaam]

“It is haram (prohibited) for someone who does not know my evidence to give fatwaa (verdicts) on the basis of my words.” Another narration adds, “… for we are mortals: we say one thing one day, and take it back the next day.” [Ibn 'Abdul Barr in Al-Intiqaa' fi Fadaa'il ath-Thalaathah al-A'immah al-Fuqahaa' (p. 145), Ibn al-Qayyim in I'laam al-Mooqi'een (2/309), Ibn 'Aabideen in his Footnoes on Al-Bahr ar-Raa'iq (6/293) and in Rasm al-Mufti (pp. 29, 32) & Sha'raani in Al-Meezaan (1/55) with the second narration. Similar narrations exist on the authority of Abu Haneefah's companions Zafar, Abu Yoosuf and 'Aafiyah ibn Yazeed; cf. Eeqaaz (p. 52). Ibn al-Qayyim firmly certified its authenticity on the authority of Abu Yoosuf in I'laam al-Mooqi'een (2/344).]

“When I say something contradicting the Book of Allah the Exalted or what is narrated from the Messenger (saaws), then ignore my saying.” [Al-Fulaani in Eeqaaz al-Himam (p. 50), tracing it to Imaam Muhammad and then saying, "This does not apply to the mujtahid, for he is not bound to their views anyway, but it applies to the muqallid."]

Imaam Maalik ibn Anas (rahimahullaah) said: **
“Truly I am only a mortal: I make mistakes (sometimes) and I am correct (sometimes). Therefore, look into my opinions: all that agrees with the Book and the Sunnah, accept it; and all that does not agree with the Book and the Sunnah, ignore it.” [Ibn 'Abdul Barr in Jaami' Bayaan al-'Ilm (2/32), Ibn Hazm, quoting from the former in Usool al-Ahkaam (6/149), and similarly Al-Fulaani (p. 72)]

**Imaam Shaafi’i (rahimahullaah) said: **
“The sunnahs of the Messenger of Allah (saaws) reach, as well as escape from, every one of us. So whenever I voice my opinion, or formulate a principle, where something contrary to my view exists on the authority of the Messenger of Allah (saaws), then the correct view is what the Messenger of Allah (saaws) has said, and it is my view.” [Related by Haakim with a continuous sanad up to Shaafi'i, as in Taareekh Dimashq of Ibn 'Asaakir (15/1/3), I'laam al-Mooqi'een (2/363, 364) & Eeqaaz (p. 100).]

None of the followers of the Imamas had ever told me these things. And honestly speaking most of the followers of the Imams are themselves not aware of this.

Linguistically, Taqleed means: Placing something around the neck, which encircles the neck. Technically it means: Following he whose sayings is not a proof (hujjah).

I’ve asked many people why they follow the Imams and not the Quran & Sunnah. The best reply I’ve got so far is “becuase ummah is told to do so by the Prophet Muhammad [s] in one of the hadith” I’m so far waiting to recieve an email from the person who gave this justification an email which would have this hadith and refference to this hadith.

Recently I’ve learned that it is only recently that the followers of these four Imams have recognised each other as being right in what they do. There was a time when in Kabbah four Immams from four different division based on the following the Imams would come and lead the prayers at different times. And the followers of the perticular Imam would pray behind those whome they thought was right. A Question still remains why did they do so?
I’m in search of it. And what I found to be more satisfactory is to follow the Quran & Sunnah

10

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *
as i understand it the idea of ijtihad is to allow ulema to reinterpret religion and keep it apace with changing times. and taqleed allows the lay person to follow the interpretation of someone who is qualified to interpret the religion. you need to attain certain religious qualification in order to do ijtihad.
[/quote]
Give examples to the things you are reffering to. You see the Sharia remains the same it is Fiq that changes. However even if you change the Fiq that has to be based upon the Sharia and moreover you should do it they way Companions of the Prophet did it.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *
the basic difference btwn shia and sunnis in this matter is that in mainstream sunnis ijtihad stopped with the four imams. however, i understand that the reasons and concepts of ijtihad and taqlid remain the same in both sects.
[/quote]
Why did it stoped after the four Imams. Did Allah [swt] sent s'one to told to Ummah that no more you need to have Ijtihad?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *
which i why im asking two things
- is my understanding of taqlid/ijtihad correct from a sunni perspective.
- what is the quranic/hadith justification of these concepts?
[/QUOTE]

The second question is what should have came in the first post

11

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *

as i understand it the idea of ijtihad is to allow ulema to reinterpret religion...
[/quote]

Ijtihad doesn't mean "reinterpreting" religion. Ijtihad, or making an effort, is the means by which a scholar independently arrives at a sharia ruling, sometimes in cases where there is no explicit text in the Qur'an or hadith...

[quote]
in mainstream sunnis ijtihad stopped with the four imams.
[/quote]

No one says this. Ijtihad continued long after the four Imams in each of their four schools of jurisprudence. In the Hanbali mazhab the door of ijtihad never closed, even though al Suyuti said Ibn Taymiyyah was the last mujtahid...

12

i guess i was going by Ijtihad - Wikipedia .

anyhow. this thread is moreso abt taqleed, to which very few people have actually responded :slight_smile:

13

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by stupid idiot: *

I've asked many people why they follow the Imams and not the Quran & Sunnah.
[/QUOTE]

Following an Imam doesn't mean you aren't following Qur'an and Sunnah... you are simply tapping into the Imam's (usually) vastly greater knowledge and understanding of the Qur'an and Sunnah... If you don't know, you ask the people who do, which is something the Qur'an teaches us to do. However, it doesn't necessarily mean restricting yourself to one single Imam as though he knew everything and is infallible...

14

Islam is basically based upon the quran but the quran does not deal with everything relating law that people come across in their daily life so the authority is extended to the hadith. Since hadith is also not comprehensive in deciding legal matters hence the authority is extended to ijtahaad. When it comes to ijtahaad the first rule is to try and arrive at an answer of a problem by analogizing ie finding not the actual but similar situation in the original sources of islam ie the quran and hadith. Only if there is no basis there for it that one may form one's own opinion but within the islamic constricts.

When mujtahids form opinions they all might arrive at the same answer for the same question and so the opinion will be unanimous or majority may end up with the very same opinion so it will become majority opinion or all may differ, in which case the opinions may become individual opinions.

For example, when the quran forbids something by name then ulema would look for grounds on which that thing is forbidden and so things which are not forbidden by name in the quran would also become forbidden because they too have in them the same reason for being unlawful. This is analogy=qyas rule.

Likewise when loud speaker systems became available, the question arose whether it was lawful to make use of the public address system during prayers or for relgious reasons etc. Camera pictures was another issue and likewise the blood transfusion. Now days the issue of body parts transplant and so the story goes. So ijtahaad has not stopped but is restricted by whatever has already been decided by imaams about matters in their time. Only new issues arising are open for ijtahad and not the matters that have been long decided.

However, people are becoming divided as regard this issue that whether decisions by past ulema were actually correct for our times and so taqleed is under severe critical examination. Many think that we should decide things for our times as the people of the past decided things for their time and their situations or circumstances.

The discussion is on going between people who rather keep the old system and those who want to reinterpret islam from the quran and hadith anew according to present times.

As I said already, it is a very complex issue and is not going to be solved today by us in this forum but you never know. At least our input may help solve the problem to some degree even if not totally.

regards and all the best.

15

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
Following an Imam doesn't mean you aren't following Qur'an and Sunnah... you are simply tapping into the Imam's (usually) vastly greater knowledge and understanding of the Qur'an and Sunnah...
[/quote]
Okay, then why are there only four Imams? I mean did the people of 'vastly greater knowledge and understand of Qur'an & Sunnah...' vanshed after the first four Imams? And do inform me which Imam you follow? I'll then ask you some more questions?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
If you don't know, you ask the people who do, which is something the Qur'an teaches us to do.
[/quote]

Ask the people of knowledge if you do not know. [an-Nahl 16:43]
I never denied this my brother. You see I ask the people of knowledge and for the peace of my heart and ask them "what does your ruling based on, i.e. Qurran or Sunnah [hadith]" And read in my previous post what did Imam Hanifa stressed on "It is haram (prohibited) for someone who does not know my evidence to give fatwaa (verdicts) on the basis of my words."
So I ask them the evidence on which they base thier ruling. If the ruling is based on the saying of some scholar I dont blindly accept it.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
However, it doesn't necessarily mean restricting yourself to one single Imam as though he knew everything and is infallible...
[/QUOTE]
Agreed.

16

And here is an audio lecture which covers some asspects of Islamic laws and rulings. Usool ElFiqh by Dr. Bilal Phillips I found it very interesting, I think it may help other muslim brothers.

17

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by stupid idiot: *

Okay, then why are there only four Imams?
[/quote]

There aren't... although four of them are famously known... but there are hundreds of skilled scholars throughout the centuries...

[quote]
I never denied this my brother...
[/quote]

I never said you did.

[quote]
You see I ask the people of knowledge and for the peace of my heart and ask them "what does your ruling based on, i.e. Qurran or Sunnah [hadith]"
[/quote]

Good.

18

First of all you missed some question asked in my previous post. Please give reply that would put me in better position to disscuss the topic.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
There aren't... although four of them are famously known... but there are hundreds of skilled scholars throughout the centuries...
[/quote]

Then why are the followers of Imam follow only four of them and not those who came after them?

19

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by stupid idiot: *

Then why are the followers of Imam follow only four of them and not those who came after them?
[/QUOTE]

You obviously know very little about what it means when someone follows a mazhab... let's take the Hanafi mazhab as an example... someone who is a Hanafi isn't following only what Imam Abu Hanifa said, rather he is adhering to the collective research of the mujtahid scholars within that school... so sometimes the opinion of Muhammad ibn al Hasan al Shaybani (one of Imam Abu Hanifa's leading students) is given preference because his evidence and argument is stronger... even if this contradicts Abu Hanifa's opinion... get it?

20

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
You obviously know very little about what it means when someone follows a mazhab...
[/quote]
I'm an ignorant with minute knowledge of Islam. I accept that. I wish to learn.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
let's take the Hanafi mazhab as an example... someone who is a Hanafi isn't following only what Imam Abu Hanifa said, rather he is adhering to the collective research of the mujtahid scholars within that school... so sometimes the opinion of Muhammad ibn al Hasan al Shaybani (one of Imam Abu Hanifa's leading students) is given preference because his evidence and argument is stronger... even if this contradicts Abu Hanifa's opinion... get it?
[/QUOTE]
You see I've seen the Hanifites practicing thing for which they dont have any evidence from Quran or Sunnah. That is what I'm trying to find why they do so?
If you tell me which of the Imam you follow I'll be at better place to disscuss with you.