Re: Taliban cut off heads of 17 people for having music at party :-(
wah kya baat hai ..... btw do u know that i don't seek enlightenment fron Allah SWT ????
to my post: I thought u were around and could reply with a qur'anic reference ..... not that i expect u, me or any other Person to spent the whole day at GS
After a bit waiting i just searched myself and thus my second reply with the Reference .... i hope this clears it up a bit
Peace
The point I made was quite clear ... If you want to search for the reference of adultery and stoning you need to go further than the Qur'an to get it. If you do not want to go further than the Qur'an then I can't help you.
Re: Taliban cut off heads of 17 people for having music at party :-(
You're saying something slightly different now. I always agreed that hard nosed adulterers will cheat, and that punishment can deter some people. My contention is that **violent **punishments are unnecessary (be it beheading or stoning), as financial and social repercussions are enough.
If you think that violent punishments are necessary and that they have a place in the penal system, then we can agree to disagree.
I don't believe violent punishments are necessary and I do not believe violent punishments are unnecessary. I'll leave the rest for you to work out.
Re: Taliban cut off heads of 17 people for having music at party :-(
The point I made was quite clear ... If you want to search for the reference of adultery and stoning you need to go further than the Qur'an to get it. If you do not want to go further than the Qur'an then I can't help you.
This is ridiculous..
Do you have a phone number for Allah SWT psyah jee? Beyond a direct line to god himself, everything in the Koran and everything beyond, is open to interpretation. So if you seek enlightenment, you will have to rely on either your own interpretation or those of others. And the only way to do that is to debate and conivnce others that someow your interpretation is the most accurate.
Saying "You should seek enlightenment from Allah SWT " is a cop out.
News flash Psyah, Islam of today, with its myriad of interpretations, all came out of people debating each other, examining and discussing both the koran and Hadeeth between themselves, and then interpreting it to fit their own preferred bias. Why dont you tell us what it is BEYOND the Quran specifically that justifies your opinion...
Re: Taliban cut off heads of 17 people for having music at party :-(
The point I made was quite clear ... If you want to search for the reference of adultery and stoning you need to go further than the Qur'an to get it. If you do not want to go further than the Qur'an then I can't help you.
Peace Psyah
Well for me there is clear line here and in other cases:
If a Hadith is not supported by a Quarnic Verse then i stay away from it. If this doesn't get to u then i can't help u.
Re: Taliban cut off heads of 17 people for having music at party
Peace Zero_one
On what basis do you stay away from hadith that is not supported by the Qur’an? Does the Qur’an tell you to stay away from hadith that the Qur’an allegedly “does not support”? Who is going to be the person who judges what is or is not supported by the Qur’an? I mean when you say ‘not supported’ … what is it you mean by this … because for me the only time a hadith can be rejected is if scholars who know the subject categorically reject it … and the basis they do this is by seeing if it contradicts and analysing its authenticity … It will only be considered a contradiction if it can be substantiated that there is no room for exception (a special circumstance) … Many people think an “absence” in the Qur’an regarding the detail is equivalent to a conflict … that is not the case.
Re: Taliban cut off heads of 17 people for having music at party
Well in those cases where the Holy Qur’an describes a process and a Hadith doesn’t follow in the same footsteps then i reject the Hadith and follow the qur’an … then of course there are cases where it isn’t as clear cut then of course i try to found what the hadith says to help me understand … and i agree with u that i seek help from a scholar who knows this subject quite well before outright rejecting a hadith i don’t understand/comprehend
Clear cut for me the Punishment of someone who commits adultery or whom u can merry from your relatives or the disposition of what someone leaves behind for his loved ones (and many more) … Now if any Hadith contradicts the Holy Qur’an in these case then and only then i reject the Hadith
Re: Taliban cut off heads of 17 people for having music at party :-(
Well in those cases where the Holy Qur'an describes a process and a Hadith doesn't follow in the same footsteps then i reject the Hadith and follow the qur'an ..... then of course there are cases where it isn't as clear cut then of course i try to found what the hadith says to help me understand ..... and i agree with u that i seek help from a scholar who knows this subject quite well before outright rejecting a hadith i don't understand/comprehend
Clear cut for me the Punishment of someone who commits adultery or whom u can merry from your relatives or the disposition of what someone leaves behind for his loved ones (and many more) ..... Now if any Hadith contradicts the Holy Qur'an in these case then and only then i reject the Hadith
I hope to have clarified it now
That's fine ... in that case the punishment for adultery by stoning does not contradict the Qur'an.
Re: Taliban cut off heads of 17 people for having music at party :-(
This has me confused. So what do YOU believe is appropriate punishment for adultery?
Peace Southie
Apologies ... I didn't reply to you. It is not what I believe, but how I can justify what has happened in various instances regarding adultery and its prescribed punishment.
Adultery like any crime has to be determined for blame ... for example a married rape victim has no blame, likewise society's condition needs to share some blame for adultery if it is seen to glamourise the act. The way the blame is shifted is to reduce the maximum penalty to something lower. In circumstances when there is no sensible reason to shift or share blame then the participants for the act need to be given the full penalty - as has been demonstrated. However, they are only given the full, if it can be proven against them. 4 eye witnesses were considered proof in those days ... so long as they all were recognised for having upright characters and found not to be colluding with one another. Today proof can be obtained from other sources such as DNA testing. Or if the participants themselves confess and continue to do so until they have been given the penalty.
Why would they want to be given punishment in this life - it is to reduce or cleanse them for the Hereafter.
People need to understand that the judgement of God is the hardest to bear if there is anything that we can do to reduce it in this world we should ...
Re: Taliban cut off heads of 17 people for having music at party :-(
Peace Southie
Apologies ... I didn't reply to you. It is not what I believe, but how I can justify what has happened in various instances regarding adultery and its prescribed punishment.
Adultery like any crime has to be determined for blame ... for example a married rape victim has no blame, likewise society's condition needs to share some blame for adultery if it is seen to glamourise the act. The way the blame is shifted is to reduce the maximum penalty to something lower. In circumstances when there is no sensible reason to shift or share blame then the participants for the act need to be given the full penalty - as has been demonstrated. However, they are only given the full, if it can be proven against them. 4 eye witnesses were considered proof in those days ... so long as they all were recognised for having upright characters and found not to be colluding with one another. Today proof can be obtained from other sources such as DNA testing. Or if the participants themselves confess and continue to do so until they have been given the penalty.
Why would they want to be given punishment in this life - it is to reduce or cleanse them for the Hereafter.
People need to understand that the judgement of God is the hardest to bear if there is anything that we can do to reduce it in this world we should ...
And what if the person does not want to be punished here and now, and perfers to take his or her chances in the after life?
Re: Taliban cut off heads of 17 people for having music at party :-(
And what if the person does not want to be punished here and now, and perfers to take his or her chances in the after life?
Then if they stay silent about it and no one knows about it, then their act has not harmed society. If they are truly repentant then Allah (SWT) is GafooruRaheem. But if "taking his or her chances" defines them then that is what defines faithlessness too ... There is absolutely nothing the law is allowed to do to a criminal without evidence or confession.
The truly repentant will seek the forgiveness of God, and fear the punishment and constantly be asking for forgiveness in this life, not hedging bets with God. On the other hand ... I'm not sure what is better ... To remain silent for the sake of reducing Fassad or to make a disclosure to be cleansed ... I guess this would depend on the case at hand. Remaining silent is what I would recommend ... Let them come to peace with their act. But if they can't come to peace with it ... Then they drive themselves to such confessions ...which then become public matters and must be dealt with appropriately according to hudd for there is no doubt in the matter of a repeated proven confession and the real threat needs to be there.
Re: Taliban cut off heads of 17 people for having music at party :-(
The people who consider stoning as the punishment for adultery, do they consider verses of quran quoted on this topic abrogated?
no, afaik, its two different punishments for the same crime dependent upon the circumstances. theres alot less need to defend the lashings punishment because non believers do not fear being punished with this method as much as being stoned to death or any of the capital punishments
Re: Taliban cut off heads of 17 people for having music at party :-(
Peace Southie
Apologies ... I didn't reply to you. It is not what I believe, but how I can justify what has happened in various instances regarding adultery and its prescribed punishment.
Adultery like any crime has to be determined for blame ... for example a married rape victim has no blame, likewise society's condition needs to share some blame for adultery if it is seen to glamourise the act. The way the blame is shifted is to reduce the maximum penalty to something lower. In circumstances when there is no sensible reason to shift or share blame then the participants for the act need to be given the full penalty - as has been demonstrated. However, they are only given the full, if it can be proven against them. 4 eye witnesses were considered proof in those days ... so long as they all were recognised for having upright characters and found not to be colluding with one another. Today proof can be obtained from other sources such as DNA testing. Or if the participants themselves confess and continue to do so until they have been given the penalty.
Why would they want to be given punishment in this life - it is to reduce or cleanse them for the Hereafter.
People need to understand that the judgement of God is the hardest to bear if there is anything that we can do to reduce it in this world we should ...
Thanks Psyah. No problems re: late reply. It depresses me to read your response. I know your response was sincere and is what you believe to be fair. It is my hope your views will evolve with passage of time.
Beyond that, I have learnt in last 2 months from my experience not to drag this further. ( a wise lady pointed out I engage in too many useless and baseless arguments. I am afraid there was some truth to it).
Re: Taliban cut off heads of 17 people for having music at party :-(
Then if they stay silent about it and no one knows about it, then their act has not harmed society. If they are truly repentant then Allah (SWT) is GafooruRaheem. But if "taking his or her chances" defines them then that is what defines faithlessness too ... There is absolutely nothing the law is allowed to do to a criminal without evidence or confession.
The truly repentant will seek the forgiveness of God, and fear the punishment and constantly be asking for forgiveness in this life, not hedging bets with God. On the other hand ... I'm not sure what is better ... To remain silent for the sake of reducing Fassad or to make a disclosure to be cleansed ... I guess this would depend on the case at hand. Remaining silent is what I would recommend ... Let them come to peace with their act. But if they can't come to peace with it ... Then they drive themselves to such confessions ...which then become public matters and must be dealt with appropriately according to hudd for there is no doubt in the matter of a repeated proven confession and the real threat needs to be there.
And what if there are witnesses, and it is proven, should they be punished with death then?
By the way, getting back to the Taliban, after the attack on Malala Yusufzai today, are you still on the wall about wether those scum are actually criminals or misunderstood mujahids? Or are you among those who try to make a distinction between the Pakistan based ones and the Afghn ones?
Re: Taliban cut off heads of 17 people for having music at party :-(
And what if there are witnesses, and it is proven, should they be punished with death then?
By the way, getting back to the Taliban, after the attack on Malala Yusufzai today, are you still on the wall about wether those scum are actually criminals or misunderstood mujahids? Or are you among those who try to make a distinction between the Pakistan based ones and the Afghn ones?
Peace Med911
The sister is engaged in a jihad towards putting in place the Islamic principle of seeking knowledge for women (she is the true talib ... Which means student) and I hope and pray that she is commended for it by the religious community. Those people who harmed her are cowards and unIslamic in behaviour.
If it is proven and the blame can be shared with society then a good Shar'iah court would still consider it an injustice generally speaking for adultery to result in stoning to death. There are lesser punishments that can be effective or more in par with the circumstances today. Yes, the punishment needs to remain there may be one day people will begin to create a more mature society which does not exploit and glamourise sex ... Like it does today and there is still every possibility for a confession.
that is not the case.