Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!

Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!

When was it a political force in Pakistan?

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It ends up making the mass more confused and divided. The reason being lack of knowledge about Islam. Pakistanis themselves are not practicing Muslims. It's time we separate religion and state for the sake of our future.
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....this doesn't make sense...I mean, Pakistan is a failed democracy too...so let's get rid of democracy. Pakistan is a failed secular state....so it's time to abandon secularism too, I suppose. Let's go back to what we're good at...a tribal/feudalism where 99% of the people are slaves to 1%.

This is a non-issue.

Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!

Islam is very much intertwined with the state and society, even if its political forces don't do too well electorally. This is a huge issue.

Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!

Musharraf's enlightened moderation and MQM's anti-Islamic agenda isnt very 'secular' either...

Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!

Anti-Islamic? Looks like you are reading jamati talking points on how to defame MQM.

Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!

Maybe its because Altaf is about to declare prophethood, from the videos you can certainly see him dress up like a Pir, let ppl touch his feet, and then 'bless' them with his 'khoobsurat and nazuq' hands... I heard Aamir Liaqat their religious guy (geo shahrukh khan) was also kicked out of the MQM for obvious reasons.

Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!

It's not an "issue"...it's how it is.

The same poll suggests that only 37% of Pakistanis see a conflict between so-called "modernizers" and "fundamentalists". Of those 37%, 19% side with modernizers while 15% side with the fundos. Another 8% simply don't care.

Now if the poll asked about corruption....


How did the poll define or communicate what it means to keep religion and government seprate? In Pakistan, it's most likely construed as keeping the Mullahs out of power...not keeping Islam itself out of the state. That certainly explains the number.

In Turkey, it's no doubt related to the head scarf issue, with a net change of 18% in the negative completely agreeing that such a seperation is a good thing. Again, I doubt it implies anything more with respect to Islam and it's role in the Turkish state.

Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!

What you are saying is totally different issue, people are fleeing country for various reasons, one of the biggest reason has been low-to-none economic development (minimal # of job creations), lawlessness etc. But that does not mean ethnofascism (or whatevamacallit) does not exist, there is racism on different grounds.

Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!

:salam:

Most of the people in this thread do not even know what they want as a secularist state and equally do not know what in Islam is keeping them from progressing.

Pakistans issues are not entirely of secular nature nor completely Islamic. The root of our woes is our people who have no respect for rules or self-respect for that matter. Pakistani awaam would do equally horrific in a theocratic system as well as a secular system. Pakistani’s who think they do better in USA because it is secular as illusioned, its not the secular nature but enforcement of rules in USA that keeps them straigght and focused. These same Pakistani’s on arriving in Pakistan behave no different than any others over there, and those who do not want to do not stay for more than 2 weeks.

Maybe secularists can highlight what Islamic policy of the country is hindering our progress. I am open for debate.

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Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!

Pakistan has seldom been a democracy or secular state. Read my post clearly, the movement to introduce Islam as a force/ movement in politics, mosques and army has failed. We are dealing with a confused generation who are been recruited to blow themselves up killing their own people. Nothing wrong with Islam, but admit the corruption. The only way to clean the mess is to give people knowledge about the issue. Until that happens, let's put a lid on it.

Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!

In Honor of Henry Kissinger's Realpolitik; lets define what Pakistan is rather than what it isnt.

What Pakistan Is:
1. poor
2. feudal
3. south asian/indian culture - has elements of caste system
4. dirty - lack of hygiene
5. elitist
6. family/tribe oriented

What Pakistani Politics are:
1. backstabbing
2. feudal
3. corrupt
4. elitist
5. deceitful
6. power hungry
7. self-concerned; self-oriented
8. tribalized/ groups/ compartments of self interest

In a nutshell, Pakistan isnt Islamic, Democratic, nor nothing.

What it is is Feudal, Uneducated, Elitist, Power Hungry.

I would actually argue that the military and government officials (who are compromised of both business men, religious figures, ethnic figures, and land lords from big farms) prefer keeping the populace stupid and illiterate as it prevents ideas coming into their heads.

The Senate is only a bunch of men, not elected by the people in most cases (rigged elections arent real elections guys) rather coming from their own self interests, who push their own agendas among men who alternately have seperate agendas.

We understand how wheat price fixing, high economy, low economy, etc happen is because people of interest work with others to artificially create such events.

So what Pakistan IS: Its a nation where people in influential positions control the government. The army is in power, very symbolic for a nation; because it means the people of that country respect force, not civic discipline.

In a nutshell, the Mughal Era of Ranks (Mansabdari System), the Mughal philosophy of Strong Military produces strong economy and sense of national discipline, the Mughal practice of killing brothers/sisters/court officials so they dont hinder your power are all present in the Pakistani ethos.

Once known, we now have recognized the problem.

Now, why wont Islam work? Because no one practices it. The ones who say they do are the ones who result in these suicide bombs around the nation.
Why wont Democracy work? Because no one practices it.
Why wont Secularism work? In a sense, it does actually.

Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!

[QUOTE]
Now, why wont Islam work? Because no one practices it. The ones who say they do are the ones who result in these suicide bombs around the nation.
Why wont Democracy work? Because no one practices it.
Why wont Secularism work? In a sense, it does actually.
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This is exactly my argument. Pakistanis are not practicing Islam. There is no knowledge of it and people who are symbols are corrupt and taking entire generations towards an oblivion. Others do not bother to educate and distinguish between the correct information.

Democracy was never given a chance to flourish. We were always interrupted by military so one can not make a judgment on it.

Now I am not saying that secularism is better, but it will provide the mass with opposite views that we lack for decades now.

Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!

And truly, even if our role models were correct, how many of us would still practice Islam? Not enough.

So whats the point? Would we practice Secularism? If the Secular ideals match what we, as a people, want, then Hell Yes, it will work.

Why does Democracy work in America but fails in South America (with their military dictatorships)? Why did Communism and Socialism work for India and China, but fail for Russia?

Until we have a system homogeneous to our cultural makeup (that works well), we will act like dimwits.

Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!

This just shows how you support cult of personnality and dictatorships !!!

countries are not created by one person. Countries are created by a mass of people who support a particular movement.

Jinnah couldn’t creat pakistan himself alone in a thousand years if he did’t had the support of Indian Muslim masses !!! secularism was NOT the slogan jinnah used to get the votes of Indian Muslims. Islam was the slogan Jinnah’s Muslim league used to get Muslim votes.

Jinnah’s personal views does NOT matter. What matters is what issues and slogans he used to get the people’s vote !!! Secularism doesn’t sell in our part of the world !!! whats why your secular kinds use dictatorships to change people’s personal views !!!

“secular Muslims” stayed in India like Abdul kalam azad. You need to also pack your bags and move to united secular india !!!

Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!

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Now, why wont Islam work? Because no one practices it. The ones who say they do are the ones who result in these suicide bombs around the nation.
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I am glad we are moving in some direction. You identified the problem:


I agree, this is to an extent what I said to, our problem is our military and "government" which has been for the most part army's brainchild. Now whether public respects force or not is a separate topic to be discussed.

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Why wont Democracy work? Because no one practices it.
Why wont Secularism work?** In a sense, it does actually**.
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Again, since we are talking about Pakistan, in theory it is great, in practice it won't work.

Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!

:wsalam: Good luck with that question, I have been asking but haven’t heard something yet (other than the usual “Hudood” ordinance).

Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!

Islam is a religion. It exists in a book. Supposedly when you ask if Islam has failed man or not, your talking about colloquial Islam, so to say, so to speak.

Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!

What is the alternative to a polity involved with, if not based on, Islam?

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Read my post clearly, the movement to introduce Islam as a force/ movement in politics, mosques and army has failed.

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I don't think I'm clear on your conception of what Islam as a political force/movement is...all parties pander to Isalmic sentiments somewhat, so I'd say it's involvement is somewhat status quo by now.

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We are dealing with a confused generation who are been recruited to blow themselves up killing their own people.

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I don't think it's fair to suggest that the only people espousing Islam within the state are those who support suicide bombings.

Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!

I would strongly agree with this...it's foolish to give Jinnah all credit for Pakistan...the fact is, the only reason why he got the time of day is because he had enough of a following (thanks to his invocation of Isalm-in-danger TNT) to be taken seriously. So let us give due credit to his supporters. Had Jinnah openly advocated a secular state, the concept of Pakistan would have been still born.


Yes, the Mullahs turned their back on Jinnah...but that's perhaps more due to the support of the Mullahs for a Khalifa, and the modernists claim that such an institution was not needed for the foundation of a modern Islamic state.

Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!

This is the sort of secularism the MQM wants in Pakistan…

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=265662

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Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!

Captain 1 saab

Please Please Please

You do not see any abuse of religion by bringing it in politics…

Taliban abused it in Afghanistan. Closed women educational institutions, created a judicial system highly biased in favour of their brand of shariat. Banned practising of any other religion in their country, dynamited the statue of buddha and I can go on and on and on…From Barber shops to cinemas…to Jihad…

In the end Islam suffered…
Face of Islam got the worse publicity…

For God’s sake keep Isalm or any other religion out of politics for the sake of the religion…

Khomeini abused Islam in Iran…

Saudi’s abuse Islam in Saudi Arabia to get their political objectives…

Osama Bin Laden brings Islam in to politics and in the end Islam gets badnaam…

Suicide bombers abuse Islam by killing in the name of Islam…

Do Islam a favour by not bringing it in politics…

For the sake of Islam…