Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!
Islam didnt work. Time for Kemal Ataturk to step in.
I asked other who said the same thing but they didn't have any answer, now you tell how did "Islam" not work in Pakistan? Please read posts #20 and #27.
Was it "Islam" that didn't work? or was it "democracy"? or was it "milit-o-cracy"? Which part brought Pakistan so low? How did "Islamic" laws bring Pakistan to this current situation? Don't just say it and runaway, please elaborate.
Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!
This part...
thats what I meant too. I am not suggesting Punjab anything close to "Waziristan", as I referred it more of 'secular' (comparatively speaking), neither "Waziristan" is Islamic rather its blood-thirsty-extremists who are fighting to gain "lost glory" (1995-2001).
Blood thirsty extremism is the populist "Islam" and "sharia" of today.
Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!
Blood thirsty extremism is the populist "Islam" and "sharia" of today.
Just like we need to rise /raise-voice against military-regime/gangster-politics/corrupt-politics to get rid of it we need to do the same thing against what you are calling sharia of today. Extremist blood thirsty are killing our people, military-regime is killing our laws, both of which are detrimental to growth of a society and both of them need to be tackled.
Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!
Who do you think will tackle the extremists? Nawaz Sharif in his yellow taxi? I understand the desire to get rid of the dictator, but sometimes reality raises its ugly head. The nonchalant attitude that some of you seem to be showing to the jihadi threat facing Pakistan is quite disturbing. We are very close to becoming Afghanistan 2.0.
Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!
Who do you think will tackle the extremists? Nawaz Sharif in his yellow taxi? I understand the desire to get rid of the dictator, but sometimes reality raises its ugly head.
oh yaar, I am getting tired of talking about "alternatives", I asked one other pro-government.... can you tell me what the alternative was before Oct 1999? I don't think anybody knew, but some how Musharraf overthrew and took the reigns, with all his negatives and positives he has achieved some and lost some. He had great chance of cleaning up political scene and establishing a system which would support growth of 'democracy' but he ended up building sham-o-cracy/milit-o-cracy, jumping in the same dirt as other politicians.
We need to think beyond "alternatives", all we need is a system which even Musharraf has totally failed to provide.
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The nonchalant attitude that some of you seem to be showing to the jihadi threat facing Pakistan is quite disturbing. We are very close to becoming Afghanistan 2.0.
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We will become Afghanistan 2.0 irrespective of NS/BB/Mushy as long as military is the one pulling strings without accountability to its nation.
Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!
You tell me where were we headed before Oct 1999? Where we headed towards a bright and prosperous future where everything was OK in Pakistan and there was no extremism, corruption etc. or was it something else?
Where would Pakistan be today if Nawaz had completed his term?
Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!
You tell me where were we headed before Oct 1999?
and where are we heading now? pardoning the criminals 1985-1999 as the biggest achievement? Is this what people of Pakistan deserved? Come'on, I asked you about "alternatives" and now you are throwing different spins, obviously no one knew the "alternatives" back then but now we are so worried about it as if Musharraf is laying foundation of a solid system for future generation.
Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!
I asked other who said the same thing but they didn't have any answer, now you tell how did "Islam" not work in Pakistan? Please read posts #20 and #27.
Was it "Islam" that didn't work? or was it "democracy"? or was it "milit-o-cracy"? Which part brought Pakistan so low? How did "Islamic" laws bring Pakistan to this current situation? Don't just say it and runaway, please elaborate.
The way "Islam" brought Pakistan down is the same reason why Communism brought Russia down. If Russia was Capitalist, it would still own half of europe and asia today.
Islamic Laws sound great on paper (to Muslims) but they arent able to be implemented for variety of factors:
1) the people dont want to follow Islam
2) dumb people are at the helm
These two problems keep Islam down.
Now is there any hope of fixing these problems through Islam if there isnt anyone capable of implementing policies to make it an effective force in the nation?
Why did Kemal Ataturk create a new system in Turkey? Turkey was having the same problems the Pakistanis are having today. The Ottoman Empire was losing, and losing, and losing some more. They had archaic policies which caused them to lose the Battle of Wien against the Hapsburgs and why they stayed back intelllecutally as Europe progressed. According to the Ottoman People and Ulema, using modern weapons is a "shameful and unvalorous" lack of chivalry, hence they got their asses handed to them by the Austrians; and printing presses are haram because they take away the respect of the thing you are printing.
Effect being, when a hot air baloon was being flown from France in the 1700s, the Ottomans thought it was a magic trick.
Another example is the Saudi fatwa when the telephone was invented. Telephones are haram to use. Why? Because they are used by the help of Jinns. Who else can bring the voice of someone half way around the world to you except a Jinni? Hence no telephones in Saudi Arabia until some time later.
If you dont sense Pakistan is staying back right now, there is something awfully wrong with you. Yes India is in a worse conditon in comparison, but not in 15 years. They are booming right now, they are competing against world powers like China and Brazil and are being recognized by South America and the United States as a viable partner in the region.
With 3 decades Pakistan will just be a thorn on the side of India.
You need a reformation, something more in synchrony with the culture and understanding of the people. You need Kemal Ataturk to implement his policies because Ottoman Empire's policies led to a Greek invasion of Istanbul and Turkey. Greece used to be a province of the Ottoman Empire; and in the early 1900s the Ottomans found their own province attacking them.
Islam isnt working. How long will you bufoons keep preaching about it like it is "only going to take a few more years" and itll come around. I mean, how long is a few more years? Will we be able to even survive in a few years?
I understand Pakistan has always been in a state of turmoil relative to their location. I understand Pakistan has had military rule, the Soviets to fight, corruption, pollution, etc. But enough is enough. Dont get swallowed into your disillusion of "just wait few more years" in reference to Islam. It aint happeneing. Espcially not with your Military Republic of Pakistan, your dumbass ghoonda Mullahs, your backward work culture, your coming to terms with females that work, your feudal culture, your illiteracy and all other nonsense.
The Ottomans collapsed because Islam didnt work. Kemal took them back. Pakistan needs a Kemal, not Islam.
Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!
^ signup bhai, thank you for detailed response, but I fail to see any connection of "Islamic laws" with current situation of Pakistan.
Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!
If you dont sense Pakistan is staying back right now, there is something awfully wrong with you. Yes India is in a worse conditon in comparison, but not in 15 years. They are booming right now, they are competing against world powers like China and Brazil and are being recognized by South America and the United States as a viable partner in the region.
I don't know which post from last 5000 of my posts said Pakistan is not staying back, all I am trying to find out is how Islam is holding Pakistan back from progress in different arenas of life, society, nation etc.
Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!
Hudood ordinance is something you need to keep an eye on. For example, how the hell does a female prove rape with 4 witnesses? Do rapists rape in public? A bunch of dumb rapists that would be.
I know what your thinking: "This isnt part of Islam"; but that coarse and trite mantra is ripping the public apart.
So say the Military completely disappears. I mean completely disappears from politics. Does that mean things will get any better?
Dumbasses, the military took over because you had Clowns you call "Leaders" ruling one after the other. They wouldnt have took power so easily and without a war if there was actually someone to capable (Qabil) to actually run your pathetic country.
Islam is good, but it totally doesnt exist anymore. It just doesnt. And you cant run a nation with non-existant things. You need something "do-able" not Principles you cant follow, only look up to in admiration.
Face it, Your a Corrupt nation where corruption rules. Its in the air you breath. The water you drink is not H2O, its CH2O - C for Corruption. Its part of your very gut to be corrupt and feudal.
You need viability not distanced admiration to run a country. Otherwise you can be Russia, collapse on yourselves.
Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!
I don't know which post from last 5000 of my posts said Pakistan is not staying back, all I am trying to find out is how Islam is holding Pakistan back from progress in different arenas of life, society, nation etc.
It doesnt exist bhai. Every thing i will tell you, you will say "This is not part of Islam" while claiming to be an Islamic Nation.
Your not understanding your own hypocrisy; your not able to come to terms with your own failure in regards to Islam.
If you spent all these years trying to establish some Islamic nation, and werent able to; Guess What?
You wont ever be able to. And if you do, too little too late.
You live in a cacaphony political culture disillusioning yourselves that your bastion of Islam. Sure, Islam has a place in society, but it didnt have a place in government for the past 1375 years in Islamic History.
Were the Ummayads "Islamic"? Yes they had such things as Zakat and Hajj, but you understand that Ummayads didnt want anyone to convert to Islam because their Dhimmi Tax Base diminished; meaning less hoes to screw and less wine to drink.
I say Pakistan can have a Zakat instituion and a Waqf institution. Even Turkey, the most anti-Islamic nation has these institutions. Albania does too. But implememting things you dont know how to implement; much like working in a laboratory without a proper understaning of what your doing, will lead to disaster not grace.
Its not working genius. It was never working. But before now you took the "blue pill" and kept living in your Matrix world imagining your Islamic people. Wake up dimwits.
Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!
Hudood ordinance is something you need to keep an eye on. For example, how the hell does a female prove rape with 4 witnesses? Do rapists rape in public? A bunch of dumb rapists that would be.
Great, so you are from same bandwagon repeating mantra of same laws which have prospered constitutional crisis throughout country, which has costed freedom of judiciary in past, which has caused rigged elections in past 60 years, which has resulted in loss of law-enforcement, which has resulted in VIP culture, which has resulted in NRO etc..... right? All these happened because of hudood laws because no one could produce 4 witnesses against rape of nation's constitution, nation's wealth etc.... you are so right, I stand corrected.
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So say the Military completely disappears. I mean completely disappears from politics. Does that mean things will get any better?
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And how are things getting better with army in power? Any development in constitution which ensures prospering of democracy? Which will result in lesser corruption? Lesser crimes? More accountability? One answer: NRO.
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Dumbasses, the military took over because you had Clowns you call "Leaders" ruling one after the other. They wouldnt have took power so easily and without a war if there was actually someone to capable (Qabil) to actually run your pathetic country.
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I don't want to resort to name calling, these same clowns who were removed are army's brainchilds.... Thank you.
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Islam is good, but it totally doesnt exist anymore. It just doesnt. And you cant run a nation with non-existant things. You need something "do-able" not Principles you cant follow, only look up to in admiration.
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Again, please provide some legitimate laws which held Pakistan.... 4-witness law is just a mantra provided you on platter by anti-Islamists. Provide me with a "Islamic" law which opposed economic reforms, which opposed development of infra-structure, which opposed freedom of judiciary, which opposed accountability, which favored corruption etc.
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Face it, Your a Corrupt nation where corruption rules. Its in the air you breath. The water you drink is not H2O, its CH2O - C for Corruption. Its part of your very gut to be corrupt and feudal.
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India had different air I presume, other Asian countries had imported gases from Saturn?
Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!
India had such an air, that the rest of the world follows. In the sense, if your going to be corrupt, thats fine as long as you show work for it.
Yes India is corrupt, all nations are. But like Bill Mahr said: "We suck, but we suck less". India is actually progressing even with their corruption. It also was rater more favorably by Transparency International in 2007 and Pakistan rated worse.
Taking Islam out of the System wont make it any more "less corrupt" but keeping Islam in the system wont make it any better. Either way, you are a corrupt people with corrupt systems.
For example, you have a culture of Caste System. You all know that in Pakistan people from the village are treated differently than people of middle class who are treated differently than people of wealth. If you know the "drawing room" system where people are served certain types of food based on their "Caste" in social eyes, you know what i mean.
Your feudal, and in feudalism, like European dark ages, two agencies remain in power over the people: The Religion and the Military Elite. Welcoming to Islamic Dark Ages. However add another: the Landlord and Business class.
The only benefit of taking Islam out is you cant dwindle the people as easily as you do today. You know South Asians are emotionally handicapped. They are too emotional of a people.
The good things ive always known about Pakistanis is that they are always critical of their government, something to be proud of. It keeps them alert.
However these Mullahs dont help any. The dumbasses follow them like zombies. I favor strongly removing and controlling the "Islam Lobby".
The goverment will always be corrupt - that is a granted fact. However other Corrupt goverment around you have shown to excel: Mexico, Brazil, India, China, Vietnam, Russia, America, Turkey.
Corruption obviously isnt holding the nation down, although it is a negative. It is the Mullah Class who disillusion the people into blowing themselves up that holds the nation down.
Marx said Religion is the Opium of the Masses, he was right. Corruption will continue but you dont need Islam to cleanse it as India and CHina are showing.
And ESPECIALLY not Pakistani Pop Islam. Yes, lets prevent the widows and divorced women from working; let them starve to death. If they attempt leaving their homes, we will burn them alive. Good going.
Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!
Very good posting by signup! Good work.
Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!
Pakistan was created by a secular leader, who is his inaugral speech clearly stated his intention of creating a Pakistan where the govt has no role in governing relgion…
If you dont like it then YOU can get lost… 
If the survey is anything to go by, people like you are already on the run.
Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!
Inshallah we will. :k:
Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!
India had such an air, that the rest of the world follows. In the sense, if your going to be corrupt, thats fine as long as you show work for it.
Yes India is corrupt, all nations are. But like Bill Mahr said: "We suck, but we suck less". India is actually progressing even with their corruption. It also was rater more favorably by Transparency International in 2007 and Pakistan rated worse.
And do you know major difference between India and Pakistan? If you said "religion" then you can't be anymore wrong. Pakistan has been shot in the foot right in the beginning all the way upto 2007 (or you could say 2008 now), thanks to who? Islamic groups? NO.... thanks to Army for continuous coups decade after decade, working for someone other than the nation itself.
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Taking Islam out of the System wont make it any more "less corrupt" but keeping Islam in the system wont make it any better. Either way, you are a corrupt people with corrupt systems.
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Your continuous rant against Islam and Islamic laws are not going to take you anywhere unless you show examples on what laws have really held back Pakistan's progress.
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For example, you have a culture of Caste System. You all know that in Pakistan people from the village are treated differently than people of middle class who are treated differently than people of wealth. If you know the "drawing room" system where people are served certain types of food based on their "Caste" in social eyes, you know what i mean.
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I don't know where in Pakistan you lived and how you faced such discrimination, but I do admit there is discrimination but its not as if someone gets kicked out of someone's house for being of different caste. I haven't seen discrimination on job/promotions/businesses, yes we have official quotas along 'provincial' lines. Now how do you put all these black marks on Islam? Did Islam tell you all this? or are people doing it because they misinterpreted some Islamic laws hence these acts?
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Your feudal, and in feudalism, like European dark ages, two agencies remain in power over the people: The Religion and the Military Elite. Welcoming to Islamic Dark Ages. However add another: the Landlord and Business class.
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Totally wrong... okay partially wrong. The agencies that remained in government are military, some extent 'democracy' and socialists (1970s), where does Islamism come into picture? If you are referring to 1980s when Zia "Islamized" society, it was all done to support the Afghan war the fruits of which we see today in Talibans.
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However these Mullahs dont help any. The dumbasses follow them like zombies. I favor strongly removing and controlling the "Islam Lobby".
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Are you suggesting people following Benazir, Altaf Hussein, Nawaz Sharif, Chodhri brothers, ANP are anything smarter? Even after their proven corruptions and crimes they are still at the top of leadership choices, now tell me how does Islam get blamed for this.... mind you none of these parties are "Islamic".
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The goverment will always be corrupt - that is a granted fact. However other Corrupt goverment around you have shown to excel: Mexico, Brazil, India, China, Vietnam, Russia, America, Turkey.
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And how many countries had their system removed by army, renewed, kicked around, manipulated?
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Corruption obviously isnt holding the nation down, although it is a negative. It is the Mullah Class who disillusion the people into blowing themselves up that holds the nation down.
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For your information, Pakistan was born in 1947, not in 2003/2004. How many suicide bombings do you see from 1947 to lets say 1999?
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Marx said Religion is the Opium of the Masses, he was right. Corruption will continue but you dont need Islam to cleanse it as India and CHina are showing.
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Now tell me how many feudal lords are there in India? How many times Indian army took over the reigns?
It is a fashion these days to put the blame on Islam because of some suicide bombings and latest failures of army saving its border infiltration etc. It is a bandwagon which everyone joins easily because they can find supporting articles on Washington Post, NY Times, Times and what not places without actually pointing out the flaws in the system. I don't see how different are you from rest of the people blaming Islam for everything without much reason.
Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!
I don't think secularism is growing in Pakistan. However, there is a growing resistance against extremist interpretation of religion, which may appear to be secularist, although it is not.
Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!
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I haven't seen discrimination on job/promotions/businesses, yes we have official quotas along 'provincial' lines.
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I would disagree with this nonsense you just posted! :D There is tons of ethnofascism in Pakistan [otherwise educated people wouldn't be running out of Pakistan]. Religion can't be blamed here but people like jamatis have abused islam especially when given a choice in the eighties. Zia-ul-haq, personally, wasn't a corrupt guy but this is my beef with him for allowing jamatis the religious control of islamic affairs as the sauds made a similar deal with the religious establishment of sodi arabia where they are above all laws unlike others.