Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!
Captain 1 saab
Please Please Please
You do not see any abuse of religion by bringing it in politics.....
Let me repeat it once again, we are talking about how Islam has held back Pakistan from progressing. Any inputs there?
Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!
Bro, Politics is governance not a religion. This is the first misconception that needs cleared. Governance is based on principles and rules. Islam provides a framework of principles and some basic rules. The worst statement of our age (in my opinion) is that Islam is a complete way of Life. This is utter BS. Islam is a framework of principles and few practices on which you can erect any society and it would be legitimate and valid form of an Islamic polity. The society may have its own cultural aspects and let them develop and flourish as long as they preserve the underlying Islamic fundamentals such equality, justice, charity, prayer for muslims, humanity etc. Hudood are the limits meaning these are the limits of a corrective action but doesn’t mean they are etched in stone and the same irrespective of its subject.
The reason I think people think Islam does not belong in politics is because we establish our identity first as muslims and then indulge in all kinds of unacceptable political gymnastics and brutal tactics. Countries in which governments are secular are not identified as per their religious identity therefore their wrongs are not conjoined with their religion whenver it is brought up though their underlying motivation may still be a religious orientation or strictly political driven or interest based.
Taliban type people have disfigured Islam by presenting it as the only acceptable way of life as if we are living according to the societal needs and customs of 7th century Arabia.
Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!
What is the alternative to a polity involved with, if not based on, Islam?
You don't have to imply. I know, everything is based on Islam and if Pakistan becomes secular, nothing will change with respect to how people live their lives here. My argument is intent, the vigorous intent to establish a rule of law, governance and policies based on it. Entire movement failed.
*I don't think I'm clear on your conception of what Islam as a political force/movement is...all parties pander to Islamic sentiments somewhat, so I'd say it's involvement is somewhat status quo by now. *
The difference is intent. Their intent was to establish Islam as the model for laws, governance and how we run the country. I know majority of Pakistanis are Muslim, thus the culture and way of life, but they introduced Islam or lack of it in our schools, mosques and army as a force for change and it failed.
I don't think it's fair to suggest that the only people espousing Islam within the state are those who support suicide bombings.
Not all or only but majority. Just look at the recent events and the way they have approached every scenario. Rest are fighting with the state government, army or police rather going around killing their own people in the neighborhood.
Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!
Let me repeat it once again, we are talking about how Islam has held back Pakistan from progressing. Any inputs there?
Yes ofcourse! Bringing Islam in to politics has palyed it's role in holding back Pakistan from progressing. This is done not necessarily by the government alone. Mullah's who have tried to enforce shariat in the country, all these taliban type who who have destroyed Pakistan's image....
The biggest problem Pakistan faces today is the perception of the country and image which we carry internationally....This is pushing us in to isolation as international community doesn't want to do business with us or deal with us. No country in the world can progress in isolation today. Tourist don't want to visit our country, business people do not want to come here to explore possibilities. So much so even international sporting events are not organised here in our country fearing security problems. All these things have occurred because of expolitation of religion for political objectives....
The perception we carry today may be overstated but is really a reality. Zia ul Haq and subsequent honeymoon of our agencies with jihad and shariat is the main cause of this perception.....
When Lal Masjid incident was occuring, without going in detail who was right or who was wrong, every news cahnnel in the world was carrying the news live 24 hours from the venue.....Everyday suicidal attack military/taliban/tribal clashes....People think Pakistan is a country full of religious idiots who can do anything in the name of religion....All this because our state has patronised these idiots for a very long time.
We have done enough badnaami of the religion....It's high time to separate it from politics....
Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!
Dear Bhai
You have put my ideas in better words than I could express myself…
Exploitation of religion for political objectives defames the religion, and the only way to stop this is separating religion from politics…
Re: Support for secularism growing in Pakistan!
Yes ofcourse! Bringing Islam in to politics has palyed it's role in holding back Pakistan from progressing. This is done not necessarily by the government alone. Mullah's who have tried to enforce shariat in the country, all these taliban type who who have destroyed Pakistan's image.
The biggest problem Pakistan faces today is the perception of the country and image which we carry internationally....This is pushing us in to isolation as international community doesn't want to do business with us or deal with us. No country in the world can progress in isolation today. Tourist don't want to visit our country, business people do not want to come here to explore possibilities. So much so even international sporting events are not organised here in our country fearing security problems. All these things have occurred because of expolitation of religion for political objectives....
The perception we carry today may be overstated but is really a reality. Zia ul Haq and subsequent honeymoon of our agencies with jihad and shariat is the main cause of this perception.....
When Lal Masjid incident was occuring, without going in detail who was right or who was wrong, every news cahnnel in the world was carrying the news live 24 hours from the venue.....Everyday suicidal attack military/taliban/tribal clashes....People think Pakistan is a country full of religious idiots who can do anything in the name of religion....All this because our state has patronised these idiots for a very long time.
We have done enough badnaami of the religion....It's high time to separate it from politics....
The issues you are talking about are mostly post 1995+, how did Islam hold back Pakistan from 1947-1995? Whether there are some Islamists, some Islamist extremists in a society does not mean whole society leans towards extremism. The ones who want to business are still doing business regardless, investment is pouring in (please ask Reza Pehlavi and Aalsi) from all parts of the world despite having such bad image that you are picturising.
What you guys are really missing is the law and order in the country, the non-religious elements of the society who have caused equally bad (if not more) damage to the image of the country as 'mother-seller', corruption, flip-flop policies (esp regarding international firms/investments)... there are tonnes and tonnes of issues but you guys have limited yourself to the issues western media is covering about Pakistan.