Actually, what we have is four Muslim friends, three of which attend the same mosque and are of Pakistani descent. One of them recently thought he had found Islam, grew a beard, began dressing in traditional Muslim clothes and would only stop to talk to other Muslims. Although the beard carries religious significance to him, he very recently shaved it off and expressed frustration about differing interpretations of Islam being given at different mosques. One of whom recently travelled for religious instruction to Pakistan and Afghanistan. One of whom was previously checked out in an anti-terrorist sweep by police. When they get to London after arriving together, they split up and go in four different directions. Each carries a backpack with explosives at the bottom covered by other belongings. The vehicle they drove had explosives in it.
And the only question is whether they were somehow unknowingly carrying the bombs or whether they carried them knowingly.
So far, no timers have been found at the blast sites. The police have no motivation, of course, to lie about the existence or non-existence of timing mechanisms. They know who carried the bombs and are now most interested in capturing the bomb maker and the mastermind behind the blasts and prevent a similar thing from happening again. ** If the bombers were unknowing dupes of some imam or al Qaeda cell leader, that would be important information to know and it would be important to tell the entire Muslim community how these guys were duped into carrying the bombs. **
Maddy: You seem willing to accept the obvious that, either way, Muslim fanatics were behind this blast. What you seem unwilling to do is accept that Muslims with such close connections to the Pakistani community could be willing participants. Get over it. Just because you might be Pakistani doesn’t make you any more responsible for what these vermin did than I am.
Ok, I am lost. I was still trying to sort out the Visor Consultants theory. So are they the same people carrying out the high jack training on 9/11/2001?
u don’t need to.. the remains are unidentifiable.. you can have people plant enough evidence and conduct a shoddy investigation.. especially if the higher ups are eager to accept that outcome.. pretty much like Iraq’s WMD evidence.. all built on lies and deception and shoddy outdated ‘intelligence’ but the US didn’t shy from showing it all off in front of the UN and to their public and made a huge decision on it’s basis.
Also the choice of Arab neighborhoods to blow something up makes chances of finding ‘darkey’ remains easier..
nope ahmadjee.. the similarity is what’s peculiar.. on 9/11 there was a massive realtime drill of US ariliners being hijacked and used as missiles to hit targets.. what they were simulating happened exactly on the same day/time.
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At least 3 of them were known to be friends, they probably knew the 4th guy too and travelled down with him from Yorkshire as a group. If they needed to go to 4 different places in London to drop off whatever the contents of the huge bags were (I mean, the stuff taking up the rest of the space apart from the small amount of explosive), they would split up.
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The 3 friends go off to 'deliver' ruksacks across London? According to your theory the sacks all came from one 'source' right? And then they're all sent off to deliver like they were running a courier service or something. That too, after they've made a long journey all the way down from Leeds early in the morning. Thats way too implausible.
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But the 3 men blamed for this - those who know them are saying they were not of this mould.
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The same was said about Hanif Mohammed and Omar Khan Shareef. The former was known very well known by members in my community, no one imagined him to do what he did. The latter was a husband and father of 3. His son was born just months before he went to Tel Aviv. We all know the rest.
The claims about the ties to a previous anti-terror sweep is currently being made by French officials only, whilst the British Home Secretary is playing them down. http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1528385,00.html
“The home secretary, Charles Clarke, yesterday denied claims by French interior minister Nicholas Sarkozy that one of the London bombing suspects had been “subject to partial arrest” during the raids last year.”
If they knew about the explosives in the car, why not take it with them to make an even bigger bang? It’s not as though they could have been planning to come back later to get it and do another attack. And the bags were big enough to easily pack in a couple kg more explosives, I can safely say that after seeing the footage of the late Mr. Hasib Hussain. If whoever did it was hoping the buck would end with these guys, leaving bomb making material like explosives in their car would be a crude attempt at misinformation.
Like I said, I’m not blaming anyone because it’s too early to speculate. If it was a state sponsored atrocity, then it must be exposed to all to bring changes in the state.
If it was a Muslim extremist who duped them, then it must be exposed that there are people out there trying to manipulate ordinary young muslims in the West and that extra extra care must be applied by all.
Not at all. I already fully believe that there are Muslims with close connections to the the Pakistani community who would kill innocent people. I gave the example of Omar Sheikh. Indeed, he was very much like me. Like me, Omar Sheikh attended private schools in London. Like me, Omar Sheikh played chess for his school. Like me, Omar Sheikh went to an elite London university. Unlike me, Omar Sheikh ended up involved in the extra-judicial beheading of a man without trial or due process by an outlawed group.
Not to mention that we have plenty of problems with Pakistani people willing to kill innocents. Just count the number of mosque bombings, and look at who gets arrested for being behind those.
I’m not denying that there are Pakistanis who would do stuff like this. But people with that kind of mentality are easy to spot, they are open and proud about the way they feel. They are also very safe because there are a large number of like-minded people but who would not be involved in such attacks, so people who actually plan to do this stuff are impossible to pick out from people who apologise or glorify it.
These 3 men, these 3 brothers of mine, do not fit that mould. That is why I believe that these 3 could not have willingly perpetrated this crime. They were duped.
Firstly, the rest. Omar Khan Shareef was found floating around rotting in the sea.
Secondly, those two were never seen by their families after leaving the UK. Noone was there to see whether or not a change came over them.
Same with the 9/11 accused. No one really knew them after they moved to the USA, so no-one was there to spot a change.
The 3 accused, they were with their families and friends until the night before and noone noticed them behaving any differently. No change in attitude, no interest in politics. The only change was that 2 out of 3 had become more religious a long time earlier.
You make it sound like it was so terrible a drive. My brother, sister-in-law and I drove from London to Dewsbury last summer, got there, and still had enough energy to get out and go for a long walk. These guys only drive as far as Luton, then took the Thameslink (which is actually a pretty quiet and relaxing train).
They all appeared to be under the impression that there was a religious conference in London that day (and all you need to persuade someone who trusts you of that is to print out a flyer advertising it) . It;s totally plausible that they thought they were doing deliveries as a favour and needed to split up to get all 4 deliveries completed before the “conference” started.
Give me a break, their families are hardly gonna go on national televison and say they were extremely concerned about their behaviour and had extremist-like views. Do you honestly think their mothers will openly say her child was troublesome and spoke about bombing Londoners? Its only natural to defend your loved ones. You are not going to ridicule them only to face more backlash. It is your flesh and blood, you will defend their izzat at all costs. In both examples (Tel Aviv and London bombers) family and friends have come out to defend them saying ‘Oh they were great kids, we would never have imagined…’. Thats expected.
Did you, your bro and sis-in law drive early in the morning only to be given heavy backpacks to ‘deliver’ all over London? What does your theory suggest these deliveries were for?
Starsky Starsky Starsky … my child, rule 1 of aguing on the internet is that you cannot win with poorly researched arguments.
Asif Hanif Mohammed
There was a known track record of his being actively, personally concerned enough about the Palestinian cause to have been taking what legal direct action in the UK was possible. It is quite plausible that having been so concerned with the eplight of Palestinians as to actively raise money for them, he would move on to the next step. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2990841.stm
*The attacker who is said to have died, Asif Mohammed Hanif, came from Hounslow in west London. **A spokesman for the Muslim Council of Britain, Inayat Bunglawala, said he did not know Mr Hanif but knew people who had seen him in London. *
*He said: "I have spoken to people who have seen Hanif handing out leaflets urging Muslims to donate to the Palestinian cause outside a mosque in Hounslow. * Omar Khan Sharif
Open and shut case. None other than Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammed, the head of the extremist Al-Muhajiroun movement, has stated that Mr. Sharif was his disciple.
He also attended public meetings organised by the extremist group al-Muhajiroun and was a student at the “shariah school” taught by Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammed, the organisation’s leader. Bakri Mohammed said that Sharif was a “martyr” who had died in the cause of Muslim lands and Muslim people.
He said: “I knew Sharif very well and he used to attend regularly at my sessions. He was my brother and I am very proud of him and any Muslim who will do the same as he did.” ---------------------------------------------------
Mr. Hanif - Clearly a very political guy, actively involved with the Palestinian cause, clearly took it deep to heart
Mr. Sharif - A known and publically visible supported of an extremist ideology
The 3 accused … Not known to have been involved in any Muslim cause; nott known to have attended or be claimed by any extremist group, not known to be anything other than pretty run of the mill guys.
Here’s a scenario: Someone persuaded them through printed flyers or posters that there was Islamic conference going on in london they they would be interested in. He had a 4 friends in London who he wanted the 4 Yorkshire guys to give some of his old stuff to since they were already going to London, as he was getting ready to leave the country and didn’t need it anymore.
He’s already bought bags and packed the stuff into them, all the 4 Yorkshire guys would need to do as a favour to him would be get to London an hour and a half before the conference starts, deliver the bags to his friends around town who’d be waiting in the morning for the bags, and then go to the conference.
In fact, the police now claim that the "fifth man" is linked to the explosive-filled car in Luton station car park.
So the guy who gave the bags was driving down to Luton, gave the 4 Yorkshire guys a ride there.
He'd need a story to explain why he was going as far as Luton but not down to London - he could bring up a bunch of excuses for that. Maybe say he had to meet someone in Luton, so he wouldn't be able to drive further down to London to deliver to his friends personally, that's why the 4 Yorkshire guys needed to take the bags down.
So Man 5 returns to the car later once 4 Yorks on in the train, places more explosives in there to make the car look real nice and guilty, then he leaves the scene. He's hoping that the 4 guys in London are linked to the car (how did the police find it so fast... maybe he tipped them off?) and that when the explosives are found in the car it will look like the 4 guys were the plotting and planning cell, what with excess explosive being there and everything.
The easiest way to get away with it is by trying to suggest that just the 4 guys did it. You'd need to try and convince police that they had everything they needed to make the bombs. Excess explosive is great for that.
so 4 guys get a 10-15 lbs backpacks to deliver to some unknown people in 4 different places and they don’t even question once what the hell is in these bags?
that is the lamest theory so for.
Of course they’d question it. But if they like someone enough to be willing to carry bags around for them, they’d almost certainly accept the explanation given. Especially if the bag could be opened the the guy showed the layer of harmless looking stuff at the top.
If a friend of yours asked you deliver a parcel marked “fragile” to a town you were going to, and you picked it up and said "Oyeee yaaar, yeh kaaafi baari hai. Is mai kya hai? " and your friend replied “Yeah kaanch ki bowl hai, mera dost ne aik nayaa ghar khareedlya hai or yeh uska ghar ke liye gift hai” … would you trust him?
Or would you insist on sitting down, opening the parcel and checking.
What if your friend opened the parcel, moved some packing paper aside and showed the bowl. Would you insist on looking through ALL of the remaining packing paper to check if he put drugs or hollow point bullets or something illegal in there as well?
LOL that coming from a conspiracy theorist who thinks 3 Yorkshire lads come down to London and act like couriers. You’re posting your theory in the wrong forum. It should be in the Jokes section.
Madboy, I don’t need to research, its common sense. Stick to the point. No ones family will come out and say their child was being indoctrinated. A mother or father will not come out and say their child’s behaviour suddenly changed. NO ONE except that family home will know any change in behaviour leading to that night. And I would expect that to remain a closely guarded secret.
And spare me talk about Asif, I KNOW plenty of guys who knew him well. I don’t need links about him (or Omar for that matter). Nice try though.
Since 9/11 radical groups are going more and more underground. Anyone involved in the planning and execution of such an operation are likely to have been tight lipped rather than openly showing affiliation to their ‘cause’. The muslim community too is now tight lipped about mentioning other members as those that speak out about atrocities against muslims across the world. So unless their friends come out and speak openly (which is unlikely) you will not HEAR much about these individuals showing concern about the plight of the ummah.
Until people like you conspiracy theorists come out of your cocoon and acknowledge the cancer within our communities the ummah will continue on this retrograde path. May Allah show you the light.
Adios
As always, the truth slowly unravels even the best conceived conspiracy theories. Seems that friends of the 30 year old “buddy” for immigrant children are now saying that he received training for explosives at terror camps in both Pakistan and Afghanistan. Now what do you think a mentor for little kids needs explosives training for?
** "One of Khan’s friends informed the BBC today that Khan had undergone training for explosives at terror camps in both Pakistan and Afghanistan. This piece of information only strengthened the London-Pakistani connection. " **
And this little item.
** "Officials tell ABC News the London bombers have been connected to an al Qaeda plot planned two years ago in the Pakistani city of Lahore.
The laptop computer of Naeem Noor Khan, a captured al Qaeda leader, contained plans for a coordinated series of attacks on the London subway system, as well as on financial buildings in both New York and Washington.
“There’s absolutely no doubt he was part of an al Qaeda operation aimed at not only the United States but Great Britain,” explained Alexis Debat, a former official in the French Defense Ministry who is now a senior terrorism consultant for ABC News.
At the time, authorities thought they had foiled the London subway plot by arresting more than a dozen young Britons of Pakistani descent last August in Luton, a city known for its ties to terrorism.
“For some time, the locus of terrorism in Britain has been around the Luton area and in some of the northern cities,” said Michael Clark, professor of defense at King’s College in London.
Security officials tell ABC News they have discovered links between the eldest of the London bombers, Mohammed Sadique Khan, 30, and the original group in Luton. Officials also believe it was not a coincidence the subway bombers all met at the Luton train station last week.
“It is very likely this group was activated last year after the other group was arrested,” Debat said." **
They say you are a lawyer of sort? Obviously a pretty sloppy one, if you are quoting nameless people, who just happen to make conveniant comments that fit with your story. Tsk, you people try so hard, but always fall flat on hard evidence. Get something a bit more substantive and with names, Perry Mason or is it Judge Judi?
** As I said, someone decided these 4 guys were going to die. You cannot blow up 4 trains and buses at random and hope that the blast would blow apart a young muslim guy in each. **
bAd_ScIeNtIsT,
…4 guys at random who happens to know each other well…travelled together to the tube.. then went their own ways to jannat..WOW…MI5/CIA/Mossad are very good at framing!!
As usual, you fail to grasp the significance of a news item. Maddy has made the argument that friends, family and neighbors have ONLY portrayed these poor “dupes” as law abiding, non-political, good little Muslim boys growing up in Leeds. Ergo, according to Maddy, they don’t fit the profile of the terrorist.
Others have made the correct observation that you wouldn’t expect a family member to say something like: “Oh, I just knew he was at the breaking point and was becoming more fanatical with each passing day.” Now, as the stories of more people who knew the bombers are getting out, it turns out that they weren’t your average guy going to work during the day and being a couch potato at night. Instead, reports are surfacing that one of them, according to a friend, got his terrorist scout badge in explosives in Pakistan and Afghanistan. (It’s already been confirmed that he went to Pakistan recently).
The prior arrests about two years ago relating to a similar subway bombing plot also answer some of Maddy’s questions. Why would these guys not behave more outwardly fanatical in the community? Well…duh…some of their friends and cohorts were already arrested when news of the first subway bombing plot was discovered by PAKISTAN authorities several years ago. The area they live is known as a hotbead of potential terrorists. Would seem pretty prudent to try to keep a low profile wouldn;t it?
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