Students in American Universities should temper their views - Split from China thread

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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How big is the line for a visa to China? Have they welcomed Muslim students to hi-buck unis?

Irem, I don’t want to dredge up old threads, but I am disgusted that you were ever allowed to spend such privileged time at one of our govt. subsidized institutions. If there were a poster child for a movement to keep Muslim students out of the U.S., you would be the one on it.
Not for fear of terrorism, but just to keep ingracious parasites from benefitting in any way from a host they seem to loathe so.

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Re: China vs. USA war in later this century: who should Muslims support ?

Did she go to school on American taxpayer’s money? Did she take an oath of allegiance to US on the day of orientation at her University? If not then she holds every right to speak up against U S of da A.

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Re: China vs. USA war in later this century: who should Muslims support ?

Oh Lord how times change. Wasn't Irem crying that she could no longer get a visa to go complete studies at Stanford? Now she is saying that "Muslims should be imported bacck from the USA", as if there are no Muslim Americans, just visitors?

And, by the way, every university in the US is supported by the Government. Grants, loans, tax exempt status, and the tax free donations of alumni over the course of perhaps hundreds of years builds a university. It is not like walking into McDonalds and buying fries.

Back on the topic, history has shown that every key trading partner of a democracy is actually drawn closer, not driven to war. The more intertwined and interconnected the economy, the less likely a conflict is....

Case in point is Kashmir two or three years ago. Pakistan and India start pi$$ing around again, and there is a massive withdrawl of high tech workers from India. The US and British Government issue advisories, Microsoft starts evacuating, and politicians get some common sense back again. If war had broken out in Kashmir, the economy of India would have been set back 10 years. Peace is an essential element to prosperity.

The real point to this thread is that Muslims have this dream that somebody, anybody will stand up to the US and give us a good whack. Now you are hoping that China does this. Of course you ignore the fact that Chinas repression of Muslims makes Guantanamo look like childs play. There is just no CNN coverage of Chinas repression of Muslim provinces, as they are so remote that no one cares, and no one can get there with a video camera. Communists govenments are generally godless. Yet you would side with a communist government just for some petty need to see the US challenged? Is that what the Quran teaches, supporting repressive godless communists? I think not...

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Re: China vs. USA war in later this century: who should Muslims support ?

There is such a huge difference between speaking out against U.S. and wishing it to be on the losing side of a massive conflict with China.

Especially after you’ve sponged off of the resources and opportunity provided by the host country you so desperately want to see whacked.

This attitude is rooted in a profound immaturity and lack of grace. It is such a mindless and stupid wish, it really boggles my senses knowing that a person of such low moral quality could be considered among the best and brightest.
These are the “educated moderates” you cheer on, eh?

When I visit Pak, I will be sure to avail myself of whatever I wish, owing nothing to anybody (not even basic respect for the society). I will live among you, accept the many kindnesses I will undoubtedly be offered, smiling when I have to and hoping like hell that India lobs a few big ones your way.

This is the attitude you support? Horrible, shameful and ignorant.

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Re: China vs. USA war in later this century: who should Muslims support ?

storch,

just cause someone is a "moderate" doesn't mean he is white man's poddle.

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Re: China vs. USA war in later this century: who should Muslims support ?

define “white man’s poodle”

In your case does that mean failing to wish the short end of catastrophic war on a country that allowed you in as it’s privileged guest?

Is she the “yellow man’s poodle”?

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Re: China vs. USA war in later this century: who should Muslims support ?

LOL

storch…don’t jump to conclusions please :slight_smile: and don’t be jealous coz u din’t get into a good college :stuck_out_tongue:

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Re: China vs. USA war in later this century: who should Muslims support ?

“Wasn’t Irem crying that she could no longer get a visa to go complete studies at Stanford”

when did that happen? :konfused: i think i missed that…!?!

“Now she is saying that “Muslims should be imported bacck from the USA”, as if there are no Muslim Americans, just visitors”

we all know what happenned to the Japanese at America during a certain period of time in history :slight_smile: and i was just saying this IN CASE there is a china-america war, what shud pak do

OG atleast try to understand my post first before answering :smack:

I don't feel like studying at all
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Re: China vs. USA war in later this century: who should Muslims support ?

Irem as well as thousands of other foreign Muslim students who decide to spend their hard earned money in the US for education, owe the US zilch. It’s not as if we were taken in for asylum and offered a free education. In fact, your govt is bending backwards to attract those very students, after a sudden decrease following 911.

"U.S. schools want foreign students both for the revenue they bring in – the IIE said international students spend up to $12 billion annually between tuition and other expenses – and their contributions to academic research.

A continuing decline in foreign student enrollment “may damage our ability to attract the best and the brightest,” said Alice Gast, vice president of research and associate provost at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology."

http://www.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/11/03/foreign.students.ap/

Just ask Microsoft’s Bill Gates and GE’s Jeff Immelt about the shortage of qualified workers and why the H-1 quota is being increased.

So please, gripe about sour grapes somewhere else, like your union representative.

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Re: China vs. USA war in later this century: who should Muslims support ?

Oh please. Just so we are all clear, There are thousands of Chinese Students studying here. It has never been easier for Asian students to come here, and the increasing wealth in China makes this more likely. Never mind that the weak dollar makes a US education much less expensive than in the 90s. Things are tough for Muslim students because of terrorism, blowback, get used to it. More Universities are starting to market to India and Asia, there are huge markets there.

Ever been to China? They will stop you on the streets just for the chance to practice their English. They love Americans. Thousands of Americans adopt Chinese babies, and as the parents walk around with the children the Chinese will walk up and say,“lucky baby, lucky baby”.

Just because some pinhead postulates that China and the US will be at war is plain stupid. Ties between the two countries have never been stronger.

And, Irems alma mater Stanford has the following funding:

Sources of Funds for FY 2003-2004
37% sponsored research
16% endowment income
3% other investment income
19% student income
9% health care services income
4% expendable gifts
12% other income

http://www.stanford.edu/home/stanford/facts/finances.html

Notice anything? Student income is only 19% of the income of the University. Of that, half is student loans from the government, or tuition reimbursement from American companies. If you think that foreign students pay the full cost for their education, you are completely mistaken.

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Re: China vs. USA war in later this century: who should Muslims support ?

Oh I see, the Institute of International Education and universities like MIT got it all wrong. Not to mention companies like GE and MS don’t know what they are talking about. And yeah the US govt is increasing visas because they wish to give more to the world, out of the kindness of their hearts. Riiiiight.

The number one income source you state is sponsored research. Care to hazard a guess how much of that research is done by teams involving foreign students?

Can you dish out $12 billion a year to contribute to the US economy? Didn’t think so. Not to mention the figures you and I are quoting are specific just to the university, these don’t include the money spent on expenses other than tution.

Other countries UK, Germany and Australia, Canada etc. are more than happy to accept students who don’t wish to study in the USA for whatever reason. Your loss not ours. Thankfully, your superiors in the government have realized that and are now changing policies accordingly.

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Re: China vs. USA war in later this century: who should Muslims support ?

It is absolutely true that students from abroad do not pay a significant portion of their tuition - in a significant portion of cases, tuition is almost fully waived. Otherwise how do you think so many from India can afford to study here in the US? Tuition waiver, aid, scholarship, assistanship, RA/TA ....common vocabulary.

So then why do US universities bring these people in? Some noble and some not so noble reasons:

  • Without foreign students many univs have to shrink in size big time - because local enrollement has never been too good

  • Foreign students bring variety in many cases depth that cannot be taken for granted locally - basically drawing talent from a global pool

  • Universities do have other sources of money and so can afford to grow in size this way, add more programs (research as well as academic)

skhan - none o f this is a secret - how come you don't know this?

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Re: China vs. USA war in later this century: who should Muslims support ?

Ahem,

The IIE and MIT have an agenda. They want visa restrictions relaxed because it's good for their business. So they put out a press release and lobby. Big frikkin' deal.

Stanford? SLAC is the big deal there, and the driver of the research dollars. My brother-in-law runs the database there. Students are dying to get in there, as it is the worlds largest database. Virtually all of my brother-in-laws employees are students, and 90% are Asian or Indian. He married one of them, she is Japanese. That is where the world is moving, and the ties, both economically and academically. Asian and Indian students have no problem at all with visas. None. Why? We have nothing to fear from them. Go look at the kids at MIT. My daughter did a college visit there a few months ago. Again, huge quantities of Asian and Indian students.

Here is the list of restricted countries. Colleges are simply putting ther marketing dollars into countries not on the list. How many students from Iran or Pakistan do I want trained in Nuclear Physics from MIT? Not a lot really.

Afghanistan Iran* Morocco Sudan*
Algeria Iraq* North Korea* Syria*
Bahrain Jordan Oman Tunisia
Bangladesh Kuwait Pakistan United Arab Emirates
Egypt Lebanon Qatar Yemen
Eritrea Libya* Saudi Arabia

Indonesia Somalia

If you wish to overblow the importance of foreign students dollars, please do I could care less. But do not do it implying that we are dependent on the brains of others to run the country. Kids come here because it is the best education on earth.

But I digress. The real point of this thread is to project some rampant Anti-Americanism on China. China is not Anti-American. The US and China are becoming more intertwined on a daily basis, much like Japan and Taiwan did over the last decades. So should my daughter learn Arabic or Mandarin Chinese? If she wants to work for the CIA, Arabic. If she wants to work for Intel, Chinese.

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Re: Students in American Universities should temper their views - Split from China thread

actually this discussion is quite good. while we're at it, another thing that should be troubling for Americans is the increasing absence of american students from research in good universities. Atleast as far as my experience goes (specific to EE/CS/CSE engineering), having researched at 2 very respected labs, the highest cited ones in their fields, the percentage of research students goes something like 40% indian, 40% chinese/taiwanese, 15% other (including pakistani, arab, european, south american), <5% american. increasingly you rely on foreign brains to develop your technology. one example, a very majorly funded research center on national security employs atleast 4 pakistani foreign students.

so not only do universities need foreign students for money, given that 95% of research also comes from these students, they also need us for maintaing their quality.

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Re: Students in American Universities should temper their views - Split from China thread

^ true. most american teenagers seem to want to study law, journalism and social arts. Nothing against those disciplines but the imbalance keeps growing. I know 6 college labs and in 4 of them, Indians and Chinese make up 90%.

What's even more worrisome is now I am seeing a pickup in students from Israel.

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Re: China vs. USA war in later this century: who should Muslims support ?

Please, Quran and Islam has nothing to do with this. Irem or any other Pakistani for that matter are in no posistion and should not to be held as reprehensive of Islam or the teachings of Quran.

And yes, if they can support godly Americans butchering and bombing their Muslim beeradaars, in fact when they actually participate themselves in the butchering of their Muslim beeradaars, then there is no shame for Pakistanis to support a godless communist nation. They will support the devil if it means survival. I’m sure you by now would have heard of Bangladesh, Waziristan, and the ongoing war in Balochistan. Pakistan killing Pakistanis, Pakistan killing Muslims, is nothing new.

So yes, my good old American friend, watch your ass, because those who backstab butcher and alienate their own brothers and sisters, wouldn’t think twice when it comes to sticking it to the Americans.

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Re: Students in American Universities should temper their views - Split from China thread

Having foreign brains in our Unversities is no new occurance. We have gone through periods where jewish refugees dominated our univerities. Then it was post world war II Germans and Russians. You are missing the point entirely. Some proportion of these people will return to their own countries. A large proportion will stay in the US as our most valuable immigrants. This is how it has always been. That is what a free and open society gives you.

How do you think the Universities got there? Are they thriving or starving? The answer is that Americans build them endow them and finance them. They are proprietary. Foreign students will become next years almuni, as they get good jobs here in the states. Or better yet they will go fuel growth of American enterprises abroad. Capitalism is an amazing thing money follows innovation. Look at Japan today. In the 1960s it was a cheap little rogue country who produced cheap transistor radios and poor quality TVs. Today the make lexus and infinities. Are we threatened by that? No, they are among our biggest fans supporters and trading partners. There has never been a war between two democracies. The closer China moves to a true market economy, the more democratic they will become. It is inevitable.

India is much the same story, they were virtually a Soviet client state 30 years ago. But they have British tradition, and less of a language barrier, and are highly motivated to succeed in a competitive world. If they keep their foot on the pedal, they will leave Pakistan in the dust. If you are Bill Gates do you put up a new computing center in India or Karachi? How would you protect your employees in Pakistan these days? Why not just put a huge frikkin' bullseye on the side of the building? Never mind the fact that western Universities will have a much harder time with Pakistani kids visas, the path of last resistance is to the East.

Welcome to blowback my friends.

So if you are so arrogant as to believe that the US somehow needs the "best and the brightest" Islamic minds, think again. Globalization provides the alternatives...

~:::: ~ Cool Breeze - Congratzzz on your big day *wink *wink ~:::: ~
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Re: Students in American Universities should temper their views - Split from China thread

good point OG, a lot of these people will end up staying in America. But its disingenuous to say that its always been this way. most of my university professors are white, non immigrants. i dont see a tenth of that number in the subsequent generation (masters leading upto Phds students, 90-95 percent are non american). furthermore, if these people become your best and brightest minds then you should stop putting lids on what they think and how they frame their worldviews. this thread is about how much foreign students owe america in terms of moderating their thoughts. clearly given the dependence of america on foreign students for research it isnt a one way street.

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Re: Students in American Universities should temper their views - Split from China thread

We need to establish three distinct buckets. The article that skhan cites says two things. First, that wealthy overseas kids will not spend their money here, and second that the best and the brightest students will stay away because of the political climate. The third issue seems to be some alarm that the color of the faces of the professors in our universities is not lilly white.

Lets take the first bucket. My sophomore year in school I lived in an 8 man suite with two kids from Bahrain, sons of the Interior Minister and the Communications Minister. The University loved them because they paid more than out-of-state fees. They were utterly crappy students, and went to the discos every night and drank. I loved them because they bought my Chevy Nova for four times what it was worth, and they seldom used the shower, so the suite did not seem as crowded as it otherwise would have. :) Other than the drunken rythmic clogging dances at 2 am and some really smelly cooking they were easy to live with. Did they contribute much to the fabric of the US? Hardly. I suspect we have more than a few guppies who fit this profile.

The elite students of the world will go where the best programs are, and that means the best funding for research. Florida State alone does over $400Million in research grants. Look at how many Nobel prizes are won every year by US scholars, and how many come out of State Institutions. So long as scholarships are there, and the research funding, the US will continue to attract the creme de la creme. I think you grossly overestimate the importance of the color of their faces. The fact that there are so many Chinese and Indian students is a strength, not a weakness. Many will stay in the US, like my daughters best friend. Her father is Mandarin Chinese, and works in underwater acousics. The US is still the only country building absolute state of the art sonar systems, and he is happier than crap living in a ranch house here in the US. His daughter will undoubtedly be valedictorian, and although he still barely speaks English, his daughter works at Banana Republic and goes to Starbucks with my daughter. America is a great country.

The only place where the US is having trouble is kids in the first bucket. The kids with a fist full of dollars who probably won't amount to much. Too many of the 9/11 attackers were here on student visas. So students from predominantly Muslim countries will get closed out. It hurts them WAY more than it hurts us. Do you think OTHER countries are THAT happy to have them come? They may take the money, but they are worried about the risks too. Most of the absolute top kids have no trouble getting in, and most of those kids are on full ride scholarships anyway, they don't have to wave around fists of dollars. In cases where we cannot accept a bright student from a Muslim country, there is always a student nearly as bright from Taiwan, China, Japan, Singapore or India who will get in. The drop in the dollar makes a US education much cheaper and widens the pool a great deal.

So all I have seen around here is a bunch of first-bucket students who somehow think that the richest most powerful country in the world should be grateful that they showed up with a fistful of daddys money. Or that somehow they are so arrogant that they believe that their brain is unique and irreplacible. Yawn.

Look around. The reason we still need engineers from overseas is that our unemployment is at 5%, not 10% like France and Germany. Russia produces worldclass scholars and thinkers, they have an excellent University system, but they have no funding, and no economic opportunities. The average worker in the Ukraine makes $300 per month, and they have an excellent university education. China produces tons of engineers, so why not outsource? They will work for a fraction of the cost. That is theory of globalization at work. It is inevitable.

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Re: Students in American Universities should temper their views - Split from China thread

Here is a story I would like to share. In our SemiConductror Physics class, we were total of 11 students. Our Professor Dr Murphy was the head of Computer Engineering Department. The first day of the class he told us that he was prejudice about his subject and he did not like the fact that more foreigners were enrolling in schools and that too in sciences (his personal opinion), and that he was happy to see more local faces in his current class. Three weeks later there were 4 students left in his class; here is their composition 2 pakis, 1 moroccon, and one Argentinian. :D. The professor was not happy when I rubbed it in and commented "o wow look at the class now, are we in US or METU (middle east technical uni)".
How many foreign students enroll in Bob Jones University?