Lately there has been some discussion about foreign students attending University
In the U.S. I for one support those who come to the U.S. to study whether they agree with U.S. policies or not. The fact is students from abroad bring much to the U.S. that is taken for granted and these students should be and are welcomed with open arms.
Re: Students from abroad are welcomed and should come to the U.S. for studies
All of them “bring much”? There’s really no point to starting this type of thread again UTD-other that assuaging some associative guilt you’ve conjured in reading other posts.
No one has advocated “Foreign studenten, Raus!” Not even in the ballpark. The main point has been to point out the unfortunate fact that some of them(here) are poor guests of the country-and somehow it would be nice if there were a way to better ensure that nicer folks got the opportunities to study here-those that truly would bring much to the U.S.
Re: Students from abroad are welcomed and should come to the U.S. for studies
storch on the other hand, just because soemone does not agree with US policies or is not a fan of US approach does not make them a bad candidate for studying in the US, on the contrary the person being here, interacting with regular people, seeing things with his own eyes may change his views.
What anyone needs to be concerned about is people who have a goal to harm people coming in disguised as students, but they can come in as visitors, on business visas, or take a relaxed stroll from mexico into US.
Re: Students from abroad are welcomed and should come to the U.S. for studies
You're right on all fronts. I merely object to the notion that raising any objection to the idea that all foreign students are a plus puts you in the "xenophobe" category.
Most assuredly are. But when we have evidence of at worst the intent to do harm to the country or at a minimum merely the display of boorish or blatantly anti-American behavior, I think it's perfectly within bounds to object to it.
That's all that's ever been done by myself in the case of criticizing those who are guilty only of displaying a strong anti-U.S. bias-which indicates to me that generally speaking their motivation to be a positive member of this society (for whatever time frame) would be a question mark.
Re: Students from abroad are welcomed and should come to the U.S. for studies
My current husband first came here about 14 years ago and he said when he first came here, he had a lot of preconceptions about christians and the culture here. He originally came for the economic opportunity.
He said he changed a lot of his views about the people and culture of America simply by being here. He found a lot of the things he was taught to believe were either exagerated or a product of people with an axe to grind. By making friends with christians, he learned they didn't eat children :) (story from his childhood).
Anyway, I agree with Mr. Fraudia on this one. But I also believe that it is very hypocritical to come to a country and work in it and learn in it, yet still have the view that the country providing you with an opportunity is an evil entity. That is ungrateful.
Re: Students from abroad are welcomed and should come to the U.S. for studies
storch
I would separate the anti-us policy from those who are only disguised as students and have other motives.
The chance that a person may see and learn and change his/her views is an important one. Let them come and see and learn, maybe they will change their minds and maybe they would not. If they change their views they serve as good bridges between two countries, and if they dont, well it was still worth a try.
What di u say about US citizens who have a strong anti-US govt/policy bias (visit berkeley to getan idea) or many collges in general?
Re: Students from abroad are welcomed and should come to the U.S. for studies
Absolutely true about U.S. citizens and I was going to mention that, but then they are U.S. citizens and that is an important distinction that I (whether I agree with their stance or not) must respect so long as no one is doing anything illegal.
Now I set the standard a bit higher for non-citizens. I feel it is within my rights to exercise an opinion as to the behavior of those visiting, especially when that visit is all or in part produced, bought and paid for by U.S. citizens. And by the way the standard is not that high at all.
Simply stated it's "could you just be a little less of a Jackass?"
I would not propose cutting off the Pakistani student pipeline to the U.S. wholesale and in the process deprive the deserving. I have largely commented on a small number of students here who have shown themselves to be kind of a pain in the a** in my opinion. Those are the only ones I can talk about with any authority. I'm really not sure if there is a way to "screen" the jackwipes, and I apologize for sounding like I want a barrier to all foreign students.
Gupshup has merely made me aware of some specific tools whom I (perhaps unrealistcally) wish weren't here or had had the opportunity to come here.
Re: Students from abroad are welcomed and should come to the U.S. for studies
I quoteth myself:
"Nadia,
You have completely missed the point, and have misinterpreted the criticism.
NO ONE is telling anybody not to speak thier mind. What we are trying to do is to get people to understand that the same government that they criticise has provided huge benefit and opportunity to foreign students.
Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. The US heavily subsidizes college education. Tax breaks for contributors, both corporate and personal, low cost student loans, scholarships, research grants, endowed chairs, wavers from real estate taxes, land grants, and about a thousand other ways that either Americans or their governments make colleges much cheaper.
It’s like inviting a guest to dinner, watching them eat four courses and then have them spit desert in your face. You may not like the desert, but you do owe your host a thank you for the invitation, an effort on your behalf, the four courses you enjoy, and a polite and gentile comment on the desert.
The effort here is to both acknowledge the good that Americans have provided you, and to become a member of the Democracy by voicing you disagreement. I have not heard ANYBODY telling students to shut up. I HAVE heard people reminding the impolite, rude and unthankful of the depth of the blessing they have received.
Frankly my conclusion is that most foreign students here on Gupshup are poorly behaved brats who figure they are owed something from the US. I say charge them double, and keep out the riff raff…"
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=149399&highlight=students
Re: Students from abroad are welcomed and should come to the U.S. for studies
Alternatively let us pose this solution.
As a matter of personal integrity, a student who absolutely disagrees with the Amermican Government should reject all grants, scholarships, loans, subsidies or jobs which might be paid for by the American government. Let us call this the "Consceitious Objector" option. This should make the student feel good about a high degree of personal integrity. Here is how this would work:
Let us take beloved Stanford University as an example.
The full tuition at Stamford is currently $29,870 per year. Stamford receives nearly 80% of its operational budget either from the American Government, or though the Endowment fund of the University, ie, a tax advantaged fund donated by Americans. To make things easy lets just assume that the real cost of tuition is 50% higher without any government tax breaks. Thus the true economic value, unsubsidized, is about $44,850 for tuition per year. Room and Board is also subsidized, as those big dorms are either funded through a captial fund of tax deductable donations, or through tax exempt bonds. Thus the true capital cost of the dormitories is atl east 30% higher than what students really pay. Therefore the the list price of $9,503 for Room and Board shoud really be $12,353 absent any government subsidy.
Therefore, a full year of attendance at the beloved Stanford should really be $57,203. Or, $228,812 for a four year education. I would propose that any foreign student who categorically rejects the American Government, also reject any assistance from that government, thus maintaining the students' personal integrity. This would allow the student true peace of mind in knowing that they had not compromised, and polluted their education with handouts from a government they despised.
Any student RETROACTIVELY troubled by accepting huge discounts from the Government of the United States should make out a check today to their University.
How are we liking that solution?
Re: Students from abroad are welcomed and should come to the U.S. for studies
I propose that any foreign student who supports the Bush administration stay home if you are against Bush and his policies in general come and get your grants.
Re: Students from abroad are welcomed and should come to the U.S. for studies
But it is not just Bush my friend. It is slavery, civil rights, Hiroshima, killing Native Americans, supporting dictators blah blah blah.
Don't you know, the entire HISTORY of the United States is an ethical black hole!
Why would anyone EVER take money from the devil?
Take my advice and choose the "Concientious Objector" option so that your entire humanity is not polluted by accepting money from the biggest devil in history!
Students, maintain your personal integrity!
Re: Students from abroad are welcomed and should come to the U.S. for studies
American pies are delicious 
Re: Students from abroad are welcomed and should come to the U.S. for studies
I'm not a fan of Iran or it's policies but if they offer me an opportunity to go over there for some class or conference I will take them up on it.
Re: Students from abroad are welcomed and should come to the U.S. for studies
foreign students obviously come in different varieties. some bring "much" to the table, others are worthless.
i don't see a big problem with accommodating useless leeches as long as they're paying exhorbitant tuition fees, taxes, etc. let them go back to their craphole countries and be low-level white collar bums for the rest of their lives. what loss is it to us?
there are plenty of appreciative and productive foreign students to compensate.
Re: Students from abroad are welcomed and should come to the U.S. for studies
storch
I think that its how the differences or disagreements are displayed, discussed and shared that is important. I think an important aspect of universities is that ppl of diff backgrounds can come together, learn from each other, be exposed to differing viewpoints, start understanding the word at large.
I would be bored stiff if everyone was holding hands and singing the same tune..we have to understand that diversity of thought and viewpoint is important, otherwise we would become USSR.
If someone is here and has scathing criticism of US policies or practices....let that person serve as a counterpoint, a reality check, lets not confuse criticism with hate. By that logic all american tourists visiting europe should be kicked out because they keep bytching about oh..the streets are so narrow ohh the people are so mean.
I will be opposed to having any hate monger in an academic setting, whether he is some commie, some religious extremist, some racist or neo nazi. outright hate has no place in academia in my view, but difference of opinion, even if on polar opposites has a place.
Re: Students from abroad are welcomed and should come to the U.S. for studies
btw twh criticism reminds me of an interesting event from my undergrad years.
my fraternity was having a joint party with the sig ep fraternity and 2 sororities.
People were having a great time and I questioned in humour, that howcome the land of the free has an age limit of 21 as its lower in europe and I dont see why.
anyways a bunch of yahoos present at the party were going to jump me for being "anti-american" but were discouraged from attempting to do so by 2 of my farternity brothers who happened to be huge football players.
so what can be considered as anti american junk by some may be considered non political criticism or disagreement or questioning of something. In my view the yahoos that were plannign to jump me needed to grow up and mentally walk out of the little kansas farm towns the same way they had physically left thise towns to be at a university.
Re: Students from abroad are welcomed and should come to the U.S. for studies
Obviously we can discern the small nuance between your “anti-Americanism” in the form of a legitimate and innocent query-small potatos and only “anti-American” to drunk neanderthals…and the real and sometimes hateful anti-Americanism on display with the some of the folks around here.
Your anecdote can only make a half-intelligent person sympathetic to the “anti-American” - you in this case.
Cheering the deaths of U.S. soldiers, harbouring some idiotic fantasy of the need to side w/China in a war against the U.S. - coming from people who reside and study here. This “anti-Americanism” is of the truly offensive variety and will not be so easily overlooked.
The only things the two scenarios have in commmon are “Muslim..declared anti-American”. In every other important way and level the two stories are unrelated.
KU or KState?
Re: Students from abroad are welcomed and should come to the U.S. for studies
storch but one can be very anti US policy while being quite fond of americans. okay forget US, I have some really good pals from Egypt, but man I cant stand the way that country is run (niether can they) but the fact that I am a critic of egyptian govt does not make my anti egypt or anti-egyptian does it?
I suppose those who dont support american wars may not be completely biased against america or americans but just facets of american policy or society.
and yes there is that small minority of people in every nation who just want to hate those who are not like them. I have seen them in US, I have seen them in Pakistan and I have seen them in UK.
Re: Students from abroad are welcomed and should come to the U.S. for studies
i’m surprised there was such kneejerk reaction even in the 40’s!
rolleyes:
Re: Students from abroad are welcomed and should come to the U.S. for studies
stop this arguement.Anyone who has every been to the us knows that every loudmouth malcontent is free to spout crap anytime they want.But,most people are busy making a living and caring for their loved ones.Sheesh.