Stigmata

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Bieng a catholic, do you believe in stigmata ? Considering the the fact the there were fake claims in the past. But on the record, there are quite a few genuine claims too.

Being Non-catholic (and non Christian) will you believe that a person can have these wounds miraculously ?

quote

**Stigmata **(plural of stigma) are wounds that were, according to the Bible, inflicted on Jesus during his crucifixion. There have been many reports of other individuals who display similar wounds, the causes of which have been subject to considerable debate. Some contend that stigmata are miraculous, others argue they are hoaxes or can be explained medically

No one has ever claimed that imagination could produce wounds in a normal subject; it is true that this faculty can act slightly on the body, as Benedict XIV said, it may accelerate or retard the nerve-currents, but there is no instance of its action on the tissues (De canoniz., III, xxxiii, n. 31). But with regard to persons in an abnormal condition, such as ecstasy or hypnosis, the question is more difficult; and, despite numerous attempts, hypnotism has not produced very clear results. At most, and in exceedingly rare cases, it has induced exudations or a sweat more or less coloured, but this is a very imperfect imitation. Moreover, no explanation has been offered of three circumstances presented by the stigmata of the saints:

**1. Physicians do not succeed in curing these wounds with remedies. **

**2. On the other hand, unlike natural wounds of a certain duration, those of stigmatics do not give forth a fetid odour. To this there is known but one exception: St. Rita of Cassia had received on her brow a supernatural wound produced by a thorn detached from the crown of the crucifix. Though this emitted an unbearable odour, there was never any suppuration or morbid alteration of the tissues. **

3. Sometimes these wounds give forth perfumes, for example those of Juana of the Cross, Franciscan prioress of Toledo, and Bl. Lucy of Narni.

unquote

It will not be very difficult for me to accept these paranormal wounds as genuine if they are …

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Re: Stigmata

Stigmata was something that was thought to have happened to very pious people over the centuries , they generally had a red fluid (which was scientifically proven to not be blood) secreted from various parts of their body...these parts were the hands(middle of palms), the head, and a few others
they were synonimous with the wounds that Jesus had received on the day he was crucified...
ie crown of thorns, and this hands were nailed to the cross

you find these images in most churches...

now whats interesting here is in the last 15/20 years or so (ive forgotten the exact timescale) historians have concluded that it is impossible to crucify somebody by nailing them through the palms onto a piece of wood and it is only possible if he nails were placed through the wrists

since this info has been shared and accepted by the Church, there have been high incidents of stigmata whereby the person affected has the liquid oozing from the wrists....

it is considered by many non Christians to be a psychological phenomenom

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Interesting !

May I ask how it is imposible to nail through palms ? Historian :konfused:

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it is possible to nail throught the palms onto the cross shaped piece of wood, you make the person spread there arms out and then nail them onto the wood...a nail in each palm

and then you stand up the cross up(or you do it the other way around)

and what happens is that the body weight of the person pulls the person down and the nails tear through the palm and the person falls

therefore tis not an affective crucifixion

if you nail through the wrists the body stays up.

I'd like to add that this topic may be quite upsetting to some people..

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Re: Stigmata

I got it now :ahaa:

I started to believe the the wrist part but it can’t be this way !

If you nail someone through wrist it will cause instant death ( cutting one’s wrist is a common suicide method) due to main blood vein is there. pulse right?

Also in the pashion of Christ they nail him through palm and then tie with ropes so bodly weight is supported by ropes.

Anyway, I also read somewhere that in some church there was a statue which used to shed tears of blood on some occasions : konfused:

Has Anyone seen the movie "The body " ?

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Re: Stigmata

Stigmata comes from intense stress and imagination I believe. Some stigmatics had their right side pierced and some left (st francis of assisi). This difference can only mean that the person is producing the symptoms himself, it could also be possible that some spiritual power allows stigmatics to have wounds, blood etc as a way to increase people's faith. The cruxifiction was the greatest act of selflessness ever, and such acts have a power of their own.

Pakorai
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Re: Stigmata

[quote=“Code_Red”]
I got it now :ahaa:

I started to believe the the wrist part but it can’t be this way !

If you nail someone through wrist it will cause instant death ( cutting one’s wrist is a common suicide method) due to main blood vein is there. pulse right?

Also in the pashion of Christ they nail him through palm and then tie with ropes so bodly weight is supported by ropes.

Anyway, I also read somewhere that in some church there was a statue which used to shed tears of blood on some occasions : konfused:

"Many of the painters and most of the sculptors of crucifixion, also show the nails through the palms. Historical Roman accounts and experimental work have established that the nails were driven between the small bones of the wrists (radial and ulna) and not through the palms. Nails driven through the palms will strip out between the fingers when made to support the weight of the human body. The misconception may have come about through a misunderstanding of Jesus’ words to Thomas, “Observe my hands.” Anatomists, both modern and ancient, have always considered the wrist as part of the hand.

from
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/5207/indexdr.html

The Passion Of the Christ isnt historically correct, it is hysteria-ally correct.

Re Weeping Statues
Every now and again statues decide to weep, some say its because something significantly nasty is going to happen or is happening…others say its nonsense.

The statues appear to “weep” a blood type of substance or oily type substance or water.

depending on report and the link below SOME of the liquid has been discovered to be blood , others a red substance and the clear liquid is belied to be rose oil… because it smells of roses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weeping_statue

for cynics and sceptics its just something to do with atmospheric pressure and humidity
a bit like the Hindu statues that were “drinking” or absorbing milk in the uk in the early 1990’s

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May i know of these scientific proofs

general conversation. Share your interest, ideas, your dreams (about other guppies)
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click on the website links

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I get the feeling that regarding the weeping statue, the link (website) is trying to explain the 'miracle'. Which, I dont find very strange. I mean if it is a miracle or paranormal activity I find it interesting.

Regarding, Palm and wrist. I still doubt the wrist part as it will cause excessive bleeding. I hope some medical student or proffesional may explain it better.

But still, occurance of stigmata ( the incurable wounds) are quite unexplainable rationally.

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Re: Stigmata

with an ordinary crucifition I m afraid thats what happens... the people who carried them out were very skilled in what they did

the person didnt generally die from wounds to the wrist/palm but because they couldnt breath

tehy had their legs broken and were hung on the cross, the theory behind it is that when they tried to breath they found it very difficult

( I read about this many years ago and have given alot of my books away...so cant go and find you the actual text)

but basically when they breathed the body/abdomen is pulled up as the air fills the lungs...when the legs are broken they become dead weight and the muscles cannot contract ...therefore they pull the abdomen down and the air pressure isnt enough to counter that and fill up the lungs therefore the crusified person becomes weaker and weaker till they are dieing and the carrion start to peck out their eyes.

Regarding the Weeping statues
you say

I get the feeling that regarding the weeping statue, the link (website) is trying to explain the 'miracle'. Which, I dont find very strange. I mean if it is a miracle or paranormal activity I find it interesting.

why dont you find it strange?

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Re: Stigmata

May be you are right, I never did any indepth analysis on crucifixtion :)

But still, the real cases of stigmata are not explained yet by rational reasoning. They are nor considered normal bodily disorder !

I will not find weeping statues (if they are geniune ) strange because there are lots of forces present on earth which are incomprehensibale for us and lot of unexplainable phenomenon.

For instance Quantity and Quality of Abe-zam'zam

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I agree with you

I was interested in the reason you believed in them because most people I know refute "miracles" untless they have "proof"

I personally am not certain of the paranormal reasoning given to stigmata ( i prefer to believe the psychological versions)

and as for weeping statues, im an open minded sceptic

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This thread is a piece of gem.

It will going to help me understand my faith better :flower1:

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Mr Qureshi, how?

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The very fact that we Muslims believe in is that Isa:as: was never crucified. In fact, one of his 12 deciples who betrayed him was crucified; hence, what happened to him due to his treasonous acts is discussed in this thread. An incident which can increase your imaan at any given time.

PS: Plus, this is a unique thread in Religion Forum.. and we will only move on when this topic is beaten to death for atleast 100 times.

Wa Dhikrum minullahe Akbar :flower1:

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Ive never heard of this ( I know very little)

Who betrayed him, what do you mean by thread beaten to death?

am confused

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As we have very limited knowledge so ‘any proof which requires knowdge, beyond the bounderies of established logical and scientific reasoning, is no proof for us’

So expaining something with zabardasti ki reasoning is merely a consolation :slight_smile:

As I mentioned Aab-Zam zam’s qualities, there are explainations available for them but they not comprehensible for me atleast. How millions of people use this water and take home millions of gallons with them 24/7 all year around and there is no shortage.

Comparably if we, take a city with a population of few millions, the govt face great difficutly in providing clean drinking water to citizens

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Psychological reasons for wounds…that does NOT happen …period

Next time u come across someone who has stigmata call some Forensic people they’ll find out the scientific explanation for you…opinion of a freak catholic doc is not counted as ‘scientific’

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re your first point…its all a matter of Belief and belief is a very strange thing…people you would know and respect and trust even to the point of trusting them with you and your loved ones life (ie doctors) may have a belief system that is alien to you, something that you dont believe and feel to be utter nonsense and has as much to do with reality as a believing that batman is real.

but hindu doctors may believe in reincarnation which is very real to them but incomprehensible to some people who may believe in weeping statues.

As for what you say about Zam-Zam water
there will always be people to offer some kind of logical (type) of explanation…especially if it has nothing to do with their beliefs for example, it can be said that Zam- Zam water is used for drinking (That is point im not certain of/just made up to illustrate this point )
and taken away in relatively small amounts…places that supply bottle spring water use far more water
and The Zam Zam well is replenished by water from deep underground (made that up too)

the city with water probs… people use far more water in things like washing and cleaning , flushing th loo and watering plants etc and therefore providing water for all of that can cause problems
I dont know if all that made sense…Its late and im very sleepy… i came here hoping for a post from Mr Qureshi!