Stem Cell Research, Morals and Religion

[IceSoul]

Re: Stem Cell Research, Morals and Religion

No.

Yes.

[IceSoul]

Re: Stem Cell Research, Morals and Religion

The first person to reach 150 'has already been born' (and soon we'll live...

Read this and marvel at this gift of Allah SWT (and your own narrow mindedness).

[hareem01]

Re: Stem Cell Research, Morals and Religion

@IceSoul

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2011425/The-person-reach-150-alive--soon-live-THOUSAND-claims-scientist.html

Read this and marvel at this gift of Allah SWT (and your own narrow mindedness).

yeah okay Mr. Very Very Braadminded. . what’s your point? killing a dozen of embryos so I can extend my bhurapa?

[IceSoul]

Re: Stem Cell Research, Morals and Religion

yeah okay Mr. Very Very Braadminded. . what's your point? killing a dozen of embryos so I can extend my bhurapa?

Proven again that you like to argue just for the sake of arguing. Do you even know what the hell we are discussing here??

[hareem01]

Re: Stem Cell Research, Morals and Religion

Proven again that you like to argue just for the sake of arguing. Do you even know what the hell we are discussing here??

Do you, Mr. Braadminded?

okay don't be angry...I'm leaving this thread so you can label someone else with narrow mindedness.

[IceSoul]

Re: Stem Cell Research, Morals and Religion

Do you, Mr. Braadminded?

okay don't be angry...I'm leaving this thread so you can label someone else with narrow mindedness.

As every decent person should if he has no idea what he's talking about.

[hareem01]

Re: Stem Cell Research, Morals and Religion

@IceSoul

Well, I decided to make a different thread for this.

@IceSoul

I watched the Universe series on History Channel

@IceSoul

. Coz these 1000 embryos are more important than 7 Billion people" ?

@IceSoul

Because stem cell research has the potential to cure so many diseases! You can literally make new organs to replace faulty ones (so to speak)!

Really, really narrow minded, sorry to say.

Things aren’t so black and white.

BTW, my questions about embryos were purely theoretical. Read Enigmatic’s post

@IceSoul

Nothing unethical in this. Everything’s fair in war and this is war: War for survival! I wouldn’t be surprised if the US is already doing all this in secret.

@hareem01

And I asked how can they save 7 billion people’s life?

@IceSoul

People on GS seem to have a major problem with reading.

I repeat:

Also, further research in stem cells and related fields will allow us, at some point in the future, to literally turn back the clock and keep our cells healthy, dramatically extending our lifetimes.

Prove to me they are.

@IceSoul

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2011425/The-person-reach-150-alive--soon-live-THOUSAND-claims-scientist.html

Read this and marvel at this gift of Allah SWT (and your own narrow mindedness).

@IceSoul

Proven again that you like to argue just for the sake of arguing. Do you even know what the hell we are discussing here??

@IceSoul

As every decent person should if he has no idea what he’s talking about.

Sure. Well let me thank you for a mind blowing conversation before I leave this thread. Thank you IceSoul.

[IceSoul]

Re: Stem Cell Research, Morals and Religion

Sure. Well let me thank you for a mind blowing conversation before I leave this thread. Thank you IceSoul.

And thank you for posting small portions of my posts again. How considerate of you :)

Maybe next time, you will try to back up your claims about squishy membranes being "*someone". *Good Day to you Madam.

[hareem01]

Re: Stem Cell Research, Morals and Religion

^Next time? lol...nah I don't think so buddy. :)

turns off The History Channel

[IceSoul]

Re: Stem Cell Research, Morals and Religion

^Next time? lol...nah I don't think so buddy. :)

Neither do I. I was just being courteous (like you).

[IceSoul]

Re: Stem Cell Research, Morals and Religion

turns off The History Channel

Don't. Maybe it will broaden your horizons (though I doubt it will work for you)

[hareem01]

Re: Stem Cell Research, Morals and Religion

@Enigmatic

don’t know about age old mystery what I posted was just knowledge of the facts I have studied as genetics really fascinates me. And yes most religious scholars believe that in vitro fertilization is permissible if the donor sperm cell is that of the husband of the infertile patient. It’s the concept of surrogate mothers, donor sperm cells that is not permissible.

So when embryologists take sperm from the husband and ova from the wife they actually create 5-6 fertilized embryos because chances of viability in labs aren’t as good as that inside the womb (again shows Allah’s knowledge and supreme power). But they transfer at the maximum of 3 inside the uterus. The rest are just left there and stored or either discarded. Using those embryos shouldn’t be wrong at all. aahh I think this is getting too techinical

Like I said it’s such an intricate topic with a very very thin line b/w ethical and unethical. And I don’t qualify much to prove that what I said is right.It’s just an opinion.
Limited knowledge
But this is all truly fascinating

hmmm…I understand the use of the excess but the controversy is about producing and destroying it wholly for the purpose of stem cell research.

Embryonic stem cell research currently requires the fertilization of an embryo with the plan to use it as a source for collecting embryonic stem cells[SUP]citation needed][/SUP], which results in the destruction of the embryo. This deliberate creation and destruction of a human embryo is a primary source for the ethical controversy.

[psyah]

Re: Stem Cell Research, Morals and Religion

Peace IceSoul

From a religious perspective certain things needs to be understood:

a) It is not considered moral to save many lives by taking the lives of a few (An injustice to one soul is as if the whole of humanity has been wronged).

b) Actions are judged by the intentions (This infers that both actions and the intent behind them should be noble)

c) Saving the life of a person established in this world takes priority over saving the life of a person who has yet to form relationships in this world.

d) We should not change nature

e) We should help people, save their lives and use our abilities to achieve these ends

Within this arena some people will argue for stem cell technology and others against it ... There are other factors that could help in understanding the whole issue:

Is the particular research killing a human? Is it considered deliberate alteration of the creation of Allah (SWT)? By not doing the research will it merely improve quality of life or will it prevent premature death? Will it rectify damage or an acquired disease?

Can research be done in other ways? How much of the research is frivolous? What are the chances of the research being used for evil gains?

[IceSoul]

Re: Stem Cell Research, Morals and Religion

@psyah

Peace IceSoul

From a religious perspective certain things needs to be understood:

a) It is not considered moral to save many lives by taking the lives of a few (An injustice to one soul is as if the whole of humanity has been wronged).

b) Actions are judged by the intentions (This infers that both actions and the intent behind them should be noble)

c) Saving the life of a person established in this world takes priority over saving the life of a person who has yet to form relationships in this world.

d) We should not change nature

e) We should help people, save their lives and use our abilities to achieve these ends

Within this arena some people will argue for stem cell technology and others against it … There are other factors that could help in understanding the whole issue:

Is the particular research killing a human? Is it considered deliberate alteration of the creation of Allah (SWT)? By not doing the research will it merely improve quality of life or will it prevent premature death? Will it rectify damage or an acquired disease?

Can research be done in other ways? How much of the research is frivolous? What are the chances of the research being used for evil gains?

I understand where you are coming from Psyah, but reading your post, I’m just happy that medical research is not controlled by Muslim or Christian fundamentalists; they may or may not have some influence, but do not completely control it. Thank Allah for that!

Also, I think your point about intentions is a very, very important one. Also, I do completely understand your point about “changing nature” Can you please explain it?

By not doing the research will it merely improve quality of life or will it prevent premature death? Will it rectify damage or an acquired disease?

You should read this too:

The first person to reach 150 'has already been born' (and soon we'll live...

It will answer your question and help you form an opinion about stem cell research. It is, quite simple, amazing!

[KiteRunner]

Re: Stem Cell Research, Morals and Religion

@Enigmatic

don’t know about age old mystery what I posted was just knowledge of the facts I have studied as genetics really fascinates me. And yes most religious scholars believe that in vitro fertilization is permissible if the donor sperm cell is that of the husband of the infertile patient. It’s the concept of surrogate mothers, donor sperm cells that is not permissible.

So when embryologists take sperm from the husband and ova from the wife they actually create 5-6 fertilized embryos because chances of viability in labs aren’t as good as that inside the womb (again shows Allah’s knowledge and supreme power). But they transfer at the maximum of 3 inside the uterus. The rest are just left there and stored or either discarded. Using those embryos shouldn’t be wrong at all. aahh I think this is getting too techinical

Like I said it’s such an intricate topic with a very very thin line b/w ethical and unethical. And I don’t qualify much to prove that what I said is right.It’s just an opinion.
Limited knowledge
But this is all truly fascinating

But many scholars also say that live begins at the point of fertilisation or the point at which the cells begin to divide, so although I would agree with IVF the fact that embryos (which IMO are living beings) are discarded is wrong.

I would also agree with stem cell research if they used the stem cells from umbilical cords which are almost if not just as good at differentiating as the ones they extract from the embryos. There’s also the stem cells from the bone marrow, albeit not as great but still usable.

Also, stem cell research is still so experimental, they still get it horribly wrong at times so right now it’s not really a viable solution (although there have been quite a few amazing success stories)/

[IceSoul]

Re: Stem Cell Research, Morals and Religion

But many scholars also say that live begins at the point of fertilisation or the point at which the cells begin to divide, so although I would agree with IVF the fact that embryos (which IMO are living beings) are discarded is wrong.

I would also agree with stem cell research if they used the stem cells from umbilical cords which are almost if not just as good at differentiating as the ones they extract from the embryos. There's also the stem cells from the bone marrow, albeit not as great but still usable.

Also, stem cell research is still so experimental, they still get it horribly wrong at times so right now it's not really a viable solution (although there have been quite a few amazing success stories)/

Once again, Thank Allah Muslim scholars don't control medical research. This is the NO1 problems with the Muslims: AFRAID OF CHANGE. Ever have they tried to delay change, and ALWAYS, ALWAYS they have paid the price.

[Enigmatic]

Re: Stem Cell Research, Morals and Religion

But many scholars also say that live begins at the point of fertilisation or the point at which the cells begin to divide, so although I would agree with IVF the fact that embryos (which IMO are living beings) are discarded is wrong.

I would also agree with stem cell research if they used the stem cells from umbilical cords which are almost if not just as good at differentiating as the ones they extract from the embryos. There's also the stem cells from the bone marrow, albeit not as great but still usable.

Also, stem cell research is still so experimental, they still get it horribly wrong at times so right now it's not really a viable solution (although there have been quite a few amazing success stories)/

That is true. The real dilemma is the creation of embryos just for the sake of research. But then we have so many issues where we have had countless human and animal trials but ended up creating drugs that caused a significant improvement in treatment of crippling diseases such as Parkinsonism, MS and other neurological disorders.

It's like a wild shot in the dark. We might succeed, we might end up having horrible results. The key would be not to transgress or create a chaos in the balance Allah has for us.

Like psyah bhai said, the intention really matters too. Say we have a guy with two kids and he's suffering from early onset Parkinsons and his life has disrupted and he has lost his job. If someone does donate their germ cells for creation of an embryo that could eventually help some way this patient and his family, would it still be unethical?

[KiteRunner]

Re: Stem Cell Research, Morals and Religion

Once again, Thank Allah Muslim scholars don't control medical research. This is the NO1 problems with the Muslims: AFRAID OF CHANGE. Ever have they tried to delay change, and ALWAYS, ALWAYS they have paid the price.

It's the Muslims that are insecure about their religion that want to change and modify it. Also notice that I said some, I personally believe life does believe at the point of fertilisation however, because there is doubt from some scholars I don't have a problem with people who think otherwise.
Muslims pioneered science and medicine, thank Allah for that or maybe we wouldn't have gotten to this point.

[KiteRunner]

Re: Stem Cell Research, Morals and Religion

That is true. The real dilemma is the creation of embryos just for the sake of research. But then we have so many issues where we have had countless human and animal trials but ended up creating drugs that caused a significant improvement in treatment of crippling diseases such as Parkinsonism, MS and other neurological disorders.

It's like a wild shot in the dark. We might succeed, we might end up having horrible results. The key would be not to transgress or create a chaos in the balance Allah has for us.

Like psyah bhai said, the intention really matters too. Say we have a guy with two kids and he's suffering from early onset Parkinsons and his life has disrupted and he has lost his job. If someone does donate their germ cells for creation of an embryo that could eventually help some way this patient and his family, would it still be unethical?

I understand, I feel sorry for anyone having to make that decision. Some animal research is very inhumane but it saved millions then again psyah also said that each life is important, by taking the life of one organism (during trials) if you save a million is it right? I get the 'greater good' picture and like I said I would hate to be the one making the decision but who are we to decide which life is worth taking and which is not?

If there is any way possible to avoid it, like cloning existing stem cells, using stem cells from umbilical cords or bone marrow, then I would be completely against it if however it was the only way and it would have the potential to save millions I may be tempted. I think though that if one way is truly haraam then there will always be an alternative 'halaal' way as well, we just can't be too quick to jump on the band wagon after reading one good article and as muslims need to have a more prominent presence in the field of genetics so that we can carry out the research, but the right way.

I remember going to see an Islamic scholar who was also very knowledgeable in medicine, I didn't think much of him tbh but he did mention a hadith that any cure derived from haraam means is also haraam. Food for thought really :D

[Enigmatic]

Re: Stem Cell Research, Morals and Religion

I understand, I feel sorry for anyone having to make that decision. Some animal research is very inhumane but it saved millions then again psyah also said that each life is important, by taking the life of one organism (during trials) if you save a million is it right? I get the 'greater good' picture and like I said I would hate to be the one making the decision but who are we to decide which life is worth taking and which is not?

If there is any way possible to avoid it, like cloning existing stem cells, using stem cells from umbilical cords or bone marrow, then I would be completely against it if however it was the only way and it would have the potential to save millions I may be tempted. I think though that if one way is truly haraam then there will always be an alternative 'halaal' way as well, we just can't be too quick to jump on the band wagon after reading one good article and as muslims need to have a more prominent presence in the field of genetics so that we can carry out the research, but the right way.

I remember going to see an Islamic scholar who was also very knowledgeable in medicine, I didn't think much of him tbh but he did mention a hadith that any cure derived from haraam means is also haraam. Food for thought really :D

Yes thus the huge debate on euthanasia too ... life is truly very complicated and it does show that no matter how much we excel in field of science some things would always remain out of our hands such as life and death itself. And this is what strengthens my faith even more and gets me closer to Allah SWT :)