Spreading HATE ...

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

During my late teens I’d pretty much lost my faith. It’s not that I’d stopped believing in Allah swt, it’s just that certain aspects of Islam were beginning to scare me. How could a religion that was meant to be so full of love and peace, also expect me to hate individuals on the basis of their religious beliefs or sexuality? In the end, I just learnt to block religion out of my head. I went out there and did stuff that I’d never done before, but I never really enjoyed myself because I always felt so lost. My family isn’t particularly religious, so they never knew what was going on in my head. I just ‘pretended’ to them that my faith was as strong as ever.

Anyway, over the last couple of years I’ve worked dead hard at restoring my faith. I so desperately wanted to experience the warmth and love I used to get whilst reading my namaz or when I used to be at the brink of doing something haram, and I used to hold back because of my religious beliefs. I hadn’t had that feeling in years and so I forced myself into opening my eyes and ears and not ignore people when they started talking about religion. Now, slowly (but surely) it is coming back to me. During this Ramzan, I’ve felt closer to Allah SWT than I’ve ever felt before and I’ve loved every minute of it. Thing is though, the aspect of Islam that had once pulled me away from my faith is still niggling at the back of my mind.

I can’t bring myself to spread hate and ill feeling. I’ve always had a very laid back attitude towards life, and I’ve never categorised people on the basis of what they get up to in their spare time, or to whom they pray. I have a lot of gay and Jewish friends who have been there for me when even my family haven’t. So what happens now? Do I disassociate from them completely. Do I start bitching about the Jews and celebrating every time some Muslim blows himself up and kills a whole Jewish family? Do I look away in disgust every time I see a couple of guys kissing? I can’t bring myself to do that.

One of my best mates is a gay Pakistani, whose father happens to be a Molvi. This guy has been through hell over the last few years. He spent his entire childhood and teens trying to ‘straighten’ himself up, and when he finally realised that how he felt was something he’d never be able to change, he came out. To me that was unbelievably brave - it would have been so much easier for him to live a lie. Anyway, this guy is an amazing person. He’s just one of those people who’s always got a smile on his face and he’s always prepared to help others. My sister got to meet this guy a couple of months ago, and was singing his praises until I told her he was gay. She just went totally berserk. The way she sees it, it’s ok for a non-Muslim to be gay as they have no knowledge of Islam, but this guy was born into a Molvi’s family so surely he knew just how haram homosexuality was. And she’s probably right. It’s just that I can’t bring myself to sever my ties with him just because it’s wrong in Islam.

Is it wrong for me to say dua for a Jewish mother who’s just lost her only son to a suicide bomber? Is it wrong for me to wish for peace in the Middle East, not just for Muslims, but also for Jews? Is it wrong for me not to look away in disgust at a gay couple walking hand in hand in the park? There just seems to be so much hatred in the world, and I really don’t want to add to it. If that makes me a bad Muslim, then so be it. If that means that I’m gonna burn in hell fire for an eternity, then so be it. If that means that I’m not even a Muslim, then so be it.

2

hi, i have just read ur post, and i feel the same as u, i was born and bread here in the UK, AND I LOVE THIS COUNTRY, i hav a lot of freiends from all casts and religion, two of my best friends are christan and the other a jew, its really imbarassing for me when were watching the newz together with them , every times they talk about an suiacide bomber killing jews or the other way round it makes me want to question my religion. but then again i dont think our religion allows this, then why do they go aginst it and saying it the act of god. i dont think that there is anything wrong with our religion, is so peacloving, however unfortunatly there are people in this world that now absolutely nothing about the religion. as islam it is a big sin to kill other people our ur self . then why do they do this. and yet what makes them different from, bin la din or hitler. according to them this is the way for them to heaven , well its actually the way to hell.
Also in my opinion i dont think people gays or lesbians should be killed this is what happens in suadia Arabia, they are human beins after all. some of my closest relatives are gay. i love them so much and i woundnt take it if anything happend to them regardless if i get into trouble or not.

Eram

3

Sadi,

Let me say that I'm glad you've chosen to turn towards Islaam. The questions you've asked are very valid queries, and everybody asks questions such as those at times, nothing wrong with that. The simple fact that you've chosen to question someone with regards to your doubts, says that you want to learn more.

I'll let someone else answer the questions, as I'd probably end up making a mess of them. Only thing I'd like to add right now, is that perhaps you might try looking at things with a different perspective i.e. where we live, the environment affects a lot of our views, and sometimes a critical look at your beliefs can show that some of what we believe in is just there because it was what we were brought up with.

4

yes Sadi, you shouldn't sever ties with Mr Xtreme just cuz of that.. he's a nice chap and sooner or later he'd come back into the fold of Islam.

5

Sadi Sobi, basically you have picked up two points:
1. Why does Islam consider gay as Haram.
2. Why doesn't Islam allow Muslims to pray for Non-Muslims.

Both these points require to be seen from a different point of view. So I will answer them with examples. I'll take up both of them one by one. I am no schoolar but I will try my best. Here goes:

6

CONCERNING GAYS:
Suppose you have a friend. A friend any one could ever dream of having. A freind so dear to you that you won't let anything happen to him. Now what will you do if that friend of yours starts taking dangerous drugs. You know that the drugs can kill him. To stop him from killing himself you will ask him to stop consuming drugs. If he continues then you might even shut him in a room so that he is not able to take drugs. Does this mean you are acting towards him with cruelty? Does this mean you hate him? You asked him not to consume drugs not out of hate but out of love. You don't want him to die. If you cannot be wrong when you stop him from doing something he likes, then how can Islam be wrong when it stops a gay from doing something he likes. Islam prohibits gays because it leads to serious diseases, which leads the gays to a painful death. Islam doesn't want Muslims to die that is why it stops Muslims from becoming gays even if they want to. So, by shunning gays, Islam spreads Health not Hatred. From one point of view, Islam is cruel when it says gayism is Haram. But from another point of view, Islam is Sensible when it says that gayism is haram. I leave it up to you. You decide which is better. Is it better to live lives with dangerous diseases or is it better to live healthy lives.

7

PRAYING FOR NON-MUSLIMS:
A Muslim should not pray for a non-Muslim doesn't mean that a Muslim should laugh at a the non-Muslim when he is in trouble. Take the example of Prophet(SAWS). I hope you know that a non-Muslim woman used to throw trash out of her window at the Prophet(SAWS) everyday, when he used to pass by her house. One day while Muhammad(SAWS) passed by her house, she didn't throw trash at him. Muhammad(SAWS) inquired and found out that the woman didn't throw trash at him because she was sick and couldn't come out of bed. Did the Prophet(SAWS) laugh at her for this. No he didn't. On the contrary, he went to find out whether the woman was okay(But he didn't pray for her health). When Islam asks us not to pray for non-Muslims, it is because they don't believe in the God who you will pray to. And, being a Muslim, you can't pray to some one a non-Muslim calls God. But you can pray to God so that He shows the non-Muslims the right path. It is wrong for you to say dua for a Jewish mother who lost her son. But it is not wrong for you to help that mother in any way you can. It is wrong for you to say dua for non-Muslims just as it is wrong for you to curse the non-Muslims.

I hope it clears things up a bit.

8

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Axiom: *
CONCERNING GAYS:
Suppose you have a friend. A friend any one could ever dream of having. A freind so dear to you that you won't let anything happen to him. Now what will you do if that friend of yours starts taking dangerous drugs. You know that the drugs can kill him. To stop him from killing himself you will ask him to stop consuming drugs. If he continues then you might even shut him in a room so that he is not able to take drugs. Does this mean you are acting towards him with cruelty? Does this mean you hate him? You asked him not to consume drugs not out of hate but out of love. You don't want him to die. If you cannot be wrong when you stop him from doing something he likes, then how can Islam be wrong when it stops a gay from doing something he likes. Islam prohibits gays because it leads to serious diseases, which leads the gays to a painful death. Islam doesn't want Muslims to die that is why it stops Muslims from becoming gays even if they want to. So, by shunning gays, Islam spreads Health not Hatred. From one point of view, Islam is cruel when it says gayism is Haram. But from another point of view, Islam is Sensible when it says that gayism is haram. I leave it up to you. You decide which is better. Is it better to live lives with dangerous diseases or is it better to live healthy lives.
[/QUOTE]

**

If you have a point to make, make it without mocking and ridiculing others!

Sentinel. **

9

The analysis on homosexuality given above is way too simplified.

We accept that people come in all sizes ranging from 3.5 ft pygamies to over 7 foot Zulus, that they can come in different colors, with different "intelligence levels" etc. We also accept that there are some inherent genetic diseases like Down syndrome that we cannot do anything about etc. and human societies have largely stopped blaming the people with such problems as representing "Divine" punishment and accepted that they need help. Now sexuality is an area that we know very little about. However, it is starting to be recogonized that there is going to be a significant variation or "natural distribution" of behavior; uniformity of behavior is likely quite unbiological and does not conform to the present understanding of biology or physiology. There is enough research now to show that "homosexual" animals (sheep, mice, monkeys, etc. ) do exist and that are certain differences in the structure of the brains of such animals when compared to the"heterosexual" ones. So far there is no "homsexual" gene. Psychologically, it is true that there are many people who feel trapped by the sex they were born into, and given a chance will rather undergo a very painful sex change operation than live with the sex they were born with. It is simplistic to call their condition a "mental" problem. For what ever reason they feel this overwhelming certainity that they really are of the opposite sex than what they were born with.

As far as health issues are concerned, there are enough sexually transmitted diseases among the heterosexual population that would make any knowledgable person cringe at the thought of heterosexual sex. There are now as many female infected with HIV as there are men. Yes there are certain health issues that anyone who is planning on having sex should learn to insure that they are not endagering their safety and / or creating long term health problems. For example among the heterosexual population unsafe sex is one of the causes of sterility among women. Similarly among the male homosexual population there are certain issues of infection that arise due to the nature of the sexual practices that people may indulge in. However, nearly all of these can be safely handled with education and any good physician should be able to provide one with good guidelines.

Nevertheless, Islam does prohibit homosexuality as far as I know. And I don't beleive that there are any exceptions to that.

10

This is one thing I still can't get my head around I'm afraid. There's no way I'm narrow-minded as anybody who knows me would testify. But two blokes making out makes my skin crawl.

|Oh yeah, and violence and war is terrible of course.

11

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Mr Xtreme: *
This is one thing I still can't get my head around I'm afraid. There's no way I'm narrow-minded as anybody who knows me would testify. But two blokes making out makes my skin crawl.

|Oh yeah, and violence and war is terrible of course.
[/QUOTE]

Nature is strange indeed. It is the Black Widow Spider killing and eating her mate is what I really cannot understand. But I will not be surprised if there are even stranger implementations in nature.

12

Ammarr, you make a fair point, but how do you account for the fact that I've been exposed to the exact same environment to my siblings, yet they're views towards gays and Jews would make the people in Gupshups religious forum look liberal!

Axom, like Chaltihai said, you can't really relate homosexuality to drug misuse. People who take A class drugs do so out of need/habit whereas people who choose to sleep with same sex partners do so for pleasure. According to you, one of the main reasons why homosexuality is haram is because of the health risks involved - but aren't there health risks in every aspect of our lives? Gays are always having safe sex campaigns shoved down their throats so they are more aware of sex related illnesses than you and I could ever be. If I were to listen to you and stop talking to my gay friends, would it really make any difference to their actions? Coming out is not an easy decision, and it's not something these people have taken lightly. Do you honestly think that they'd go through all this hostility and hatred if they were straight? No they wouldn't. So, would me blanking them heterosexualise them? No it wouldn't.

Regarding what you said about not praying for non-Muslims, isn't dua meant to be a personal thing? If I want to pray for peace, should I just pray for peace for Muslims and allow all my HUMAN brothers and sisters suffer and die? What about all the starving Christian kids in Africa - should I leave them out of my duas? If my religion teaches me to do that then maybe I am following the wrong religion. What I find even harder to understand is what you say about me being able to help out a Jewish mother who has lost her son, but not pray for her? Why????

OldLahori, like I said earlier, I'm fairly certain that gays are fully aware of the risks involved in homosexual sex (the same risks that are involved with heterosexual sex). What I really want to know is whether 'health risks' is the sole reason behind homosexuality being haram in Islam. If an individual knows of these risks and goes into a relationship, then why should I be punished for not disassociating from them?

Mr X, I want you to look at your value base, and ask yourself why you feel the way you do. Is it because of Islam or is it because of the culture you've grown up in?

13

[quote]
...Do I start bitching about the Jews and celebrating every time some Muslim blows himself up and kills a whole Jewish family? ...
[/quote]

NO, answer to your question is simple since the Quran itself says that "if a person kills any other human being (not just muslim) then it is just like he has killed the whole humanity and if he has saved one human then it's like he has saved the whole humanity".

When I was in Pakistan and in my teens I used to question quite a lot of things within Islam as they weren't very clear to me. Most of the rituals, celebrating eid on different days, dowry issues, prophet Mohammed's (pbuh) many marriages and his marriage to a 9 year old girl, men's right to marry 4 women or gori woman & not vice versa and divorce issues were very confusing.

My family is an average relaxed family who are not very religious at all. I am not saying that I am religious but the basic concepts were always clear and I always liked debating the issues on logical basis. The reason for me being confused was because I (was "kunwaiN ka mainDak" )had limited knowledge and I always got a biased view from the media or the people around me. No matter how impartial I tried to be my judgements would always had been biased since it was based on limited knowledge not only about jews but other muslim sects as well.

I am lucky that I came to UK where I have got easy access to reading material and met people who could explain things to me on a more logical basis. Above all, I made friends who are from different parts of the world and had different religious background which made me think more about my own religion. I think now i can make better judgements since I have listened different points of view on various subject and it is the key for a safer world.

Now, I don't think that minority of paThans (living in the North West Frontier Provicnce of Pakistan) are stupid at all only because they celebrate Eid one day earlier than the Pakistanis coz these people are celebrating eid with most of the muslims throughtout the world and if the moon has been sigted in one part of the world then these people are in fact doing the right thing. Similarly, other issues got cleared in my mind.

I never approved of the suicide killings and don't think that Jews should be killed coz if under Salahuddin (Saladin) Ayubi's rule Jews, Christians and Muslims could live peacefully so why shouldn't they live peacefully now. Although, I believe that a Palestinian baby girl who died because of the airstrikes at her home equally deserves your prayers and her family deserves equal sympathy since she didn't have anything to do with the suicidal bombings.

It might be easier for girls to feel confident around gay people but it's definitely difficult for guys to say that they are OK to have gay guys around them.

14

Damn...I couldn't read chaltahai's post. It got edited.

Sadi Sobi, apart from health, another thing that comes to my mind is that gayism goes against nature. There are way more number of women in the world than men.
Men and women are born in equal proportion. But, since females are the stronger sex (medically.It means females fight germs much better than males) more females live compared to males. In America there are more than 7.8 million females than males and out of the population of men 1/3rd are sodomites (gays). In UK there are 4 million more females than males. In Germany there are 5 million more females than males. In Russia there are 7 million more females than males. Now if every man in America marries 1 female, still 7.8 million females will be left. So, if there are more gays then what will become of these women. How will they get satisfied. If there are no gays then the number of women left unsatisfied would have been less.

About praying, what I am trying to say is that instead of praying for non-Muslims you should go and help them. Don't pray for peace instead, go and make sure peace exists.(Nowadays it would be processions of, STOP THE VIOLENCE). Leave the starving christian kids out of your dua but donate something to them so they don't starve anymore. If the son of a jewish mother dies then, instead of praying for her go and help her. Like if the son used to earn money, now you go and help her financially.

15

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Axiom: *
Is it better to live lives with dangerous diseases or is it better to live healthy lives.
[/QUOTE]

So heterosexuals don't get diseases and only gays do? Interesting. You should be made the new dean of Harvard Medical School for this ground-breaking finding.

16

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sadi Sobi: *

Mr X, I want you to look at your value base, and ask yourself why you feel the way you do. Is it because of Islam or is it because of the culture you've grown up in?
[/QUOTE]

My value base is generally just my gut instinct., it has nothing to do with Islam. Stoning adulterers to death is also something I'm not happy with if that answers your question.

17

Khan Baba,

You said: “if a person kills any other human being (not just Muslim) then it is just like he has killed the whole humanity and if he has saved one human then it’s like he has saved the whole humanity” How can this be applied to Jihad? Surely the suicide bombers in Israel think they’re fighting Jihad, so does this quote not apply to them? :confused:

I appreciate what you said about questioning things in Islam. It just seems that a lot of the Muslims I know don’t like to question what they are told – they just accept everything at face value, but I can’t do that. I find that whenever I pose a question to a Muslim, rather than admit they don’t know the answer, they’re more likely to say ‘tauba tauba’ and change conversation - it just gets really frustrating. Take what happened last week for example. I was trying to read namaz and I’d positioned my masalah towards the front of the room. Once I’d finished my namaz, my brother was going mad at me, telling me that I’d made him late. When I asked why he didn’t read behind me, he replied that men are meant to read in front of women, not behind them. When I challenged this remark, he just gave me one of those ‘tauba tauba, you’ve been corrupted by the West’ looks and started reading his namaz. Needless to say, I never did find out the answer to the question.

I think you’ve misunderstood what I said in the original post regarding praying for non-Muslims. What I was trying to ask was whether it was wrong for me to pray for non-Muslims whilst I’m praying for Muslims? I want to be able to pray for all humans - for the sake of humanity, or is that not allowed? :rolleyes:

I won’t question you about what you said about gays – I think I might start a whole new thread on that one – even though it’s already been done to death :slight_smile: Seriously Khan Baba, I really like what you’ve said in your post - but it seems to contradict what Axon is saying ….

Axon,
I think you forget that women can be gay as well!!

18

Mr X,

Nope, you still haven't answered my question. I want to know exactly why you feel the way you do. Why do you find homosexuality so disgusting?

19

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sadi Sobi: *
Mr X,

Nope, you still haven't answered my question. I want to know exactly why you feel the way you do. Why do you find homosexuality so disgusting?
[/QUOTE]

can you go down on a woman?

20

Sadi: Do you think your feelings and your religion are mutually exclusive. in the end isn't it between you and god. I don't think there should be such a conflict of self. There shouldn't be such battles with tolerance and humanity with respect to religion. Whether islam, christianity, judaism, hinduism or what ever. In my interpretation of what god would want, he would want me to be tolerant and care for the other person regardless whether they wer jewish, muslim, homosexual or all three in one. In the end he made them who they are so who am I to judge.