[Split Thread] The Joint Family System

[Zafra]

Re: [Split Thread] The Joint Family System

Can you point out any examples where it is being portrayed as more rigid than it really is?

The entire discussion after the second post about the hadis about waking parents up and feeding the kids. It can be interpreted many ways and each post so far has added to the notion of rigidity.

Just to point out one thing - the Quran states openly we can not eat pork. It is forbidden. The Hadis says we can. That shows flexibility in light of the situations of life. Same goes with parents and taking care of them. You have to be flexible and balanced. That is the aim of Islam. Not literal strict interpretation of the words. But the essence of the faith. In case of Islam it is our duty to take of our parents but that does not mean we all start living together in the same 2 bedroom house, because Islam said we should.

You should take in to account your personal choices and situations, the views of parents and the rest. What if your parents don't wish to live with you? What if its not physically possible being in different countries? Or they can't move due to health reasons. Yes it is fine and dandy what Islam says about joint families and whatever else. Whenever religion becomes a basis for discussion it always turns into a my way or the highway type of discussion, which can be seen by all the responses to my post.

[S02]

Re: [Split Thread] The Joint Family System

[mod]Folks, it's not that hard to stick to the topic of the thread. Please open a separate thread for the halal food discussion. [/mod]

[Hmmna]

Re: [Split Thread] The Joint Family System

^^ you should also have edited the original post that started all the talk about haram foods as its misleading.

[Reha]

Re: [Split Thread] The Joint Family System

I don't understand what is so wrong with living separate? Why is it sooooo horrible for a woman to want some space? Especially in the beginning of the marriage when two people neeeeeed that time. Leaving your parents and never looking back is one thing - but if you moved across the street or even in the same neighborhood, how is that bad? How is that a sin as its being portrayed here? One thing I will never understand about people who claim to be religious or who use Islam in everything is...WHY is necessary to be unjust with one person in order to be just with another? Why? Where in Islam does it say "stay with your parents even if it causes problems in your marriage"?

[pinks]

Re: [Split Thread] The Joint Family System

Those advocating a joint family system (meaning you want your wife to live with your family) should first and foremost lay out ground rules for EVERYONE (yes, that includes the MIL) to follow to ensure that no one's rights/ freedom/ respect is compromised. Any work the DIL does for the in laws, she does out of her goodness and not an obligation. The husband should really understand that, so should his parents. Housework should be split equally, the wife should be allowed to work/ travel as she pleases, dress as she please, eat as she pleases... and no one in the in laws can tell her otherwise.

But lets face it, MOST pakistani men do not carry this mentality, and neither do their parents. So since the base of the potential joint family system is all wrong, not much good can come of it except bitterness. I can jot down plenty of examples here but i won't bother.

As for the parents becoming too old to function independently, I have yet to see any in my extended circle that were neglected at their time of need...

[gudiaali]

Re: [Split Thread] The Joint Family System

Islam does not support joint family system.Try convincing your parents from religious aspect.Al tough I strongly adore the idea of a son living with parents.A son is afather's arm.

where does it say in Islam that it doesn't support joint family system.
according to my knowledge Islam neither discourages joint family system nor does it discourage nuclear family set-ups.

everyone has different circumstances and no one functions in the same manner. probably that is the reason that Islam has not made it obligatory for sons and Dils to necessarily live with their in-laws and neither Islam made it impermissible for DILs to live with their in-laws.
the decision to either live in joint set-up or separately depends on the circumstances of each family and should not be generalized.
i have known of many families where DILs amicably agreed to live with their in-laws. not every girl think of her in-laws as evil and not every in-law is unbearable for the DIL.

even making this purdah thing as an excuse of not living with in-laws is lame because this excuse is often given by ladies who do not observe any purdah outside their homes yet make his as an excuse of not living with in-laws as it would violate the purdah thing.

also i find this mentality really pathetic that Sons and DILs in some cases live in joint family system till the time they can not afford a separate house. this is like misusing your parents/parents-in-law and then ditch them when you are able to afford a house for yourself.

[gudiaali]

Re: [Split Thread] The Joint Family System

I don't understand what is so wrong with living separate? Why is it sooooo horrible for a woman to want some space? Especially in the beginning of the marriage when two people neeeeeed that time. Leaving your parents and never looking back is one thing - but if you moved across the street or even in the same neighborhood, how is that bad? How is that a sin as its being portrayed here? One thing I will never understand about people who claim to be religious or who use Islam in everything is...WHY is necessary to be unjust with one person in order to be just with another? Why? Where in Islam does it say "stay with your parents even if it causes problems in your marriage"?

certainly it is not at all wrong if a woman wants to live separately if living i joint family set-up is causing tension in her married life or her well being. but saying that a woman "SHOULD" live separately is not right. She CAN live separately based on her unique circumstances.

[Deeba1234]

Re: [Split Thread] The Joint Family System

^They don't need to live separately only if the joint family set up is causing her tension in the first place.. Having a place of their own (if her hubby can afford it) is a basic right, not a last resort..

Parents can always move in with the couple later if they're older, lonely or need help (and the dynamics totally change) or the son and dil can live very close by and pop in all the time..

[notme]

Re: [Split Thread] The Joint Family System

.

[Reha]

Re: [Split Thread] The Joint Family System

certainly it is not at all wrong if a woman wants to live separately if living i joint family set-up is causing tension in her married life or her well being. but saying that a woman "SHOULD" live separately is not right. She CAN live separately based on her unique circumstances.

Reading my post the way it is would be great.

No where do I say a woman SHOULD live separately.

[ButtSb]

Re: [Split Thread] The Joint Family System

Why don’t ya’all not marry into a joint family in the first place? Whats with all the energy wasting going on.. You could all use this energy to solve electricity problems in pakistan etc.

[gudiaali]

Re: [Split Thread] The Joint Family System

Reading my post the way it is would be great.

No where do I say a woman SHOULD live separately.

no reha, i didnt mean you said this, i am referring to in general to people who say and impose that woman should live separately.

[aliyahali]

Re: [Split Thread] The Joint Family System

Can I just point out that a lot of people don't the follow the basics of Islam to the letter..... YET, when it comes to the topic about living with your in-laws, girls start spouting verses from the Quran.

Don't bring Islam in to it, just say that you don't want to live with your in-laws.

I wouldn't want to live with in-laws either, but it's go nothing to do with Islam!!!

[Reha]

Re: [Split Thread] The Joint Family System

Can I just point out that a lot of people don't the follow the basics of Islam to the letter..... YET, when it comes to the topic about living with your in-laws, girls start spouting verses from the Quran.

Don't bring Islam in to it, just say that you don't want to live with your in-laws.

I wouldn't want to live with in-laws either, but it's go nothing to do with Islam!!!

Sometimes people do that to show that their feelings are not invalid. That they have choices even according to the religion their elders claim to practice with such devoutness.

Whatever it is...living apart is an option and there's nothing wrong with it. No one is being abandoned and I have yet to see a DIL turn away her MIL from her own home when she needs to be taken care of. Log aye vayeen baat ka batangar banatay hein. Agar shaadi apne maan baap ki khidmatein karwane ke liye ki hai to getting a naukrani would be cheaper, no?

[Shak]

Re: [Split Thread] The Joint Family System

Living with others raises expectations, intentionally or unintentionally.

I am very much against the joint system *personally, *as I would want privacy and the fact that the girl does not only have to get used to living away from her family, but she has to get used to you (and you her) and in a joint system she has to get used to everyone along with the guy and well Life1 is a good example of how that doesn't work. And in our desi culture the expectations don't work and I may generalize but a lot of men are mama boys who can't do anything unless their mommy's around and I find that behavior absolutely pathetic. My parents are against joint system themselves and they're self sufficient mashAllah so I don't have any concerns living on my own with my wife. There will come a time when my parents or her parents would need us and they would have to live with us and that time has its own place.

However before the joint family system brigade jump me each to their own, for some it works for others it doesn't.

[Deeba1234]

Re: [Split Thread] The Joint Family System

Can I just point out that a lot of people don't the follow the basics of Islam to the letter..... YET, when it comes to the topic about living with your in-laws, girls start spouting verses from the Quran.

Don't bring Islam in to it, just say that you don't want to live with your in-laws.

I wouldn't want to live with in-laws either, but it's go nothing to do with Islam!!!

It's often brought up on GS to correct the assumption that a lot desis have that the joint family system is preferred (or even a must) in Islam.. A lot of ppl still believe that a son must live with his parents according to the religion..

(And imo neither gender tends to follow Islam to the letter.. that goes as much for guys as girls.. How many non-virgin guys still think they have the right to demand their wife is 'pure')

[Pakista]

Re: Want to move out

Islam does not support a joint family system as it exists in Paki households. Where there is no Parda from ghair mahram men and everyone hangs out together. However, it is not correct to say that Islam does not support the joint family system, because as as long as you keep you parda it is o.k. I live with my parents, my wife/kids--and my brother who is also married with kids. I have never seen my Phabis hair-our conversation begins with Salaam and ends with Wa salaam..My brother and I both have keys to the house but we never use them because we have to ring the bell/or knock and wait for everyone to be ready for us (put on hijab-cover up etc) and then open the door for us. The kitchen has a separate curtain on it and I can't go there without knocking and getting clearance. While we are at work, our wives hang out with our mom/dad//and when we come back we separate in to our sections. The no joint family thing is more of an arab thing than an Islamic thing, but it's true that the way it exists in desi families is definitely not allowed. Living separately is the right of the wife but remember if you are going to use Islam as an excuse then remember that Hazrat Aisha had 1 room and it was so small that Prophet SAW would have to ask her to move while reading tahajjud so he can make sajda. So those women who want to use Islam as a reason to separate, then please also accept something similar to Hardhat Aisha's room. Also if joint family system was not allowed in Islam then we wouldn't have this famous hadith.. read this hadith and tell me if the son was living with the parents or using skype to check up on them..

Allah's Apostle said, "While three persons were traveling, they were overtaken by rain and they took shelter in a cave in a mountain. A big rock fell from the mountain over the mouth of the cave and blocked it. They said to each other. 'Think of such good (righteous) deeds which, you did for Allah's sake only, and invoke Allah by giving reference to those deeds so that Allah may relieve you from your difficulty. one of them said, 'O Allah! I had my parents who were very old and I had small children for whose sake I used to work as a shepherd. When I returned to them at night and milked (the sheep), I used to start giving the milk to my parents first before giving to my children. And one day I went far away in search of a grazing place (for my sheep), and didn't return home till late at night and found that my parents had slept. I milked (my livestock) as usual and brought the milk vessel and stood at their heads, and I disliked to wake them up from their sleep, and I also disliked to give the milk to my children before my parents though my children were crying (from hunger) at my feet. So this state of mine and theirs continued till the day dawned. (O Allah!) If you considered that I had done that only for seeking Your pleasure, then please let there be an opening through which we can see the sky.' So Allah made for them an opening through which they could see the sky.

I am going to take a guess here and say that the man lived with his wife and kids with his parents.

Here are more for fun..I think "dutiful" goes beyond calling them on EId.

I heard Abi Amr 'Ash-Shaibani saying, "The owner of this house." he pointed to 'Abdullah's house, "said, 'I asked the Prophet 'Which deed is loved most by Allah?" He replied, 'To offer prayers at their early (very first) stated times.' " 'Abdullah asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" The Prophet said, "To be good and dutiful to one's parents," 'Abdullah asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" The Prophet said, To participate in Jihad for Allah's Cause." 'Abdullah added, "The Prophet narrated to me these three things, and if I had asked more, he would have told me more."

Allah's Apostle said thrice, "Shall I not inform you of the biggest of the great sins?" We said, "Yes, O Allah's Apostle" He said, "To join partners in worship with Allah: to be undutiful to one's parents.

This is the best post I have read on this forum so far and please dont worry if you get attacked by "people using Islam for their own benefit" from left, right and center.

[Captain_Obvious]

Re: [Split Thread] The Joint Family System

Can I just point out that a lot of people don't the follow the basics of Islam to the letter..... YET, when it comes to the topic about living with your in-laws, girls start spouting verses from the Quran.

Don't bring Islam in to it, just say that you don't want to live with your in-laws.

I wouldn't want to live with in-laws either, but it's go nothing to do with Islam!!!

It's useful to bring up when people who want to impose the joint family system try to justify it using Islam.

[Princess1983]

Re: [Split Thread] The Joint Family System

I don't understand what is so wrong with living separate? Why is it sooooo horrible for a woman to want some space? Especially in the beginning of the marriage when two people neeeeeed that time. Leaving your parents and never looking back is one thing - but if you moved across the street or even in the same neighborhood, how is that bad? How is that a sin as its being portrayed here? One thing I will never understand about people who claim to be religious or who use Islam in everything is...WHY is necessary to be unjust with one person in order to be just with another? Why? Where in Islam does it say "stay with your parents even if it causes problems in your marriage"?

I agree with Reha. Not all those who wish to live in separate dwellings are doing so to literally leave their parents behind or shy away from duties as children. Unfortunately a lot of cultural influences make it near impossible for some families (my Mums side being my own example) to live separately without blaming one person or another and saying they are bad/too modern etc etc. They don't give a damn about the fact it would be easier all around for my Mamus to live separate from each other. Both my Mamus wives come from very different backgrounds; and sadly one has a nasty nature of seeing everything in a negative light and twisting everything anyone says to her (she's done it to me so I know it's something she does not just hearsay). My grandparents are now deceased; but oh no my older Mamu who cannot be bothered to earn refuses to let his younger brother live in peace alone because none of the elders lived alone it was always a joint family system. It failed generation after generation; no one in my opinion ever benefitted from it. My Grandparents recalled arguments/violence and the like living in the joint family set up.

One of Khalas in married into a family where living together is literally frowned upon-even though for the first 14 years of my Khalas marriage her husband was based away from home as he was in a certain core of the Pakistani Army and thus was never at home. Her MIL said that she didn't wish for any of her sons to live with her; and if time came where she needed support she would be happy to live at each of her children's home for a certain amount of time which worked in all their interests. Auntie Jee (as I called her) got to see all her grandkids and families, there was no arguments over joint family crap and everyone was happy. And no my Khalas MIL was not an educated modern type of woman, she came from a small family with deep roots in a village however she felt the balance of a happy home was better and in the interest of everyone compared to culture of the joint family.

No one ever heard Auntie Jee complain that her kids were not doing their duties etc; as she was lucky enough to find a balance and was never at her marital home-she was always splitting time amongst the kids and it worked for everyone.

I think if you wish to live in a joint family and are happy with what it entails then that's fab! If you want to live alone with your husband/wife and understand what that means too then again that's fab too. My issue is when one of the systems are forced on a couple who clearly don't want to be a part of it. This IMHO increases stress, tension, problems for the whole family etc. I honestly think sometimes those (families) like my Mums family that force people to live in such systems are SELFISH. It's to meet your own needs; or to show others 'oh look at us' rather than the best interests of those in the situ.

Islamically we have duties yes; no one can deny that...saying that I am not saying a joint family system will ensure children do that. I'm aware of joint families where things have turned so bitter the DILs cook dinner in the family kitchen, leave a plate for their MIL/FIL and take the rest to their own room because if they were to sit in the same room the chances are huge arguments would break out over the fact the children are living with their parents out of the fact their parents are emotionally blackmailing them ("oh my brothers DILs live with him if you move out my izaath will go down the pan").

When I visited Pakistan back in 2007 one of my husbands cousins wives was pregnant. Everyone knew about it because she lived in the joint family system and was unable to cook certain items due to the smell etc. Her BILs (even the unmarried ones) knew she was expecting, of course the elders knew. Everytime she was tired she wouldn't rest because her MIL would make the comments of "my other DIL never had this...haaaayyyyyy nakre". It was a shame to see but there you go. She went for a medical check up as she became quite ill; and because of the joint family system in place the womans husband had to go to his older brother and father and ask for extra money for the Doctors and explain why he needed it. I find that pretty tacky; with no hayaah considering they knew the situ anyway. This is one of the reasons I cannot get my own head around living in a joint family system and struggle when I visit my in-laws in Pakistan. It's not just about covering your hair from non-mehrems for me. It's a case of the constant watching some do, the picking up on small things that mean nothing but cause stress etc. This is how I feel; I'm not saying the system fails everytime as I'm assuming there are people happy in the set up too so that's good. But honestly, if someones child wants to live away from them in a separate house and they are kicking up a fuss because their child won't deal with them etc etc I don't wish to sound negative but what does that say about the child's upbringing?

[Captain_Obvious]

Re: [Split Thread] The Joint Family System

I don't understand what is so wrong with living separate? Why is it sooooo horrible for a woman to want some space? Especially in the beginning of the marriage when two people neeeeeed that time. Leaving your parents and never looking back is one thing - but if you moved across the street or even in the same neighborhood, how is that bad? How is that a sin as its being portrayed here? One thing I will never understand about people who claim to be religious or who use Islam in everything is...WHY is necessary to be unjust with one person in order to be just with another? Why? Where in Islam does it say "stay with your parents even if it causes problems in your marriage"?

There's nothing wrong with it. Though I would like to point out that in my circle, the people who have moved out of their parents' houses to give space to their wives was through the counsel of religious elders. And the reality is far from being that only the religious try to force it on people. I would say it's much more from those who end up benefiting from that setup, particularly at the expense of others, which in itself goes against deen.

@Princess1983

I agree with Reha. Not all those who wish to live in separate dwellings are doing so to literally leave their parents behind or shy away from duties as children. Unfortunately a lot of cultural influences make it near impossible for some families (my Mums side being my own example) to live separately without blaming one person or another and saying they are bad/too modern etc etc. They don't give a damn about the fact it would be easier all around for my Mamus to live separate from each other. Both my Mamus wives come from very different backgrounds; and sadly one has a nasty nature of seeing everything in a negative light and twisting everything anyone says to her (she's done it to me so I know it's something she does not just hearsay). My grandparents are now deceased; but oh no my older Mamu who cannot be bothered to earn refuses to let his younger brother live in peace alone because none of the elders lived alone it was always a joint family system. It failed generation after generation; no one in my opinion ever benefitted from it. My Grandparents recalled arguments/violence and the like living in the joint family set up.

One of Khalas in married into a family where living together is literally frowned upon-even though for the first 14 years of my Khalas marriage her husband was based away from home as he was in a certain core of the Pakistani Army and thus was never at home. Her MIL said that she didn't wish for any of her sons to live with her; and if time came where she needed support she would be happy to live at each of her children's home for a certain amount of time which worked in all their interests. Auntie Jee (as I called her) got to see all her grandkids and families, there was no arguments over joint family crap and everyone was happy. And no my Khalas MIL was not an educated modern type of woman, she came from a small family with deep roots in a village however she felt the balance of a happy home was better and in the interest of everyone compared to culture of the joint family.

No one ever heard Auntie Jee complain that her kids were not doing their duties etc; as she was lucky enough to find a balance and was never at her marital home-she was always splitting time amongst the kids and it worked for everyone.

I think if you wish to live in a joint family and are happy with what it entails then that's fab! If you want to live alone with your husband/wife and understand what that means too then again that's fab too. My issue is when one of the systems are forced on a couple who clearly don't want to be a part of it. This IMHO increases stress, tension, problems for the whole family etc. I honestly think sometimes those (families) like my Mums family that force people to live in such systems are SELFISH. It's to meet your own needs; or to show others 'oh look at us' rather than the best interests of those in the situ.

Islamically we have duties yes; no one can deny that...saying that I am not saying a joint family system will ensure children do that. I'm aware of joint families where things have turned so bitter the DILs cook dinner in the family kitchen, leave a plate for their MIL/FIL and take the rest to their own room because if they were to sit in the same room the chances are huge arguments would break out over the fact the children are living with their parents out of the fact their parents are emotionally blackmailing them ("oh my brothers DILs live with him if you move out my izaath will go down the pan").

When I visited Pakistan back in 2007 one of my husbands cousins wives was pregnant. Everyone knew about it because she lived in the joint family system and was unable to cook certain items due to the smell etc. Her BILs (even the unmarried ones) knew she was expecting, of course the elders knew. Everytime she was tired she wouldn't rest because her MIL would make the comments of "my other DIL never had this...haaaayyyyyy nakre". It was a shame to see but there you go. She went for a medical check up as she became quite ill; and because of the joint family system in place the womans husband had to go to his older brother and father and ask for extra money for the Doctors and explain why he needed it. I find that pretty tacky; with no hayaah considering they knew the situ anyway. This is one of the reasons I cannot get my own head around living in a joint family system and struggle when I visit my in-laws in Pakistan. It's not just about covering your hair from non-mehrems for me. It's a case of the constant watching some do, the picking up on small things that mean nothing but cause stress etc. This is how I feel; I'm not saying the system fails everytime as I'm assuming there are people happy in the set up too so that's good. But honestly, if someones child wants to live away from them in a separate house and they are kicking up a fuss because their child won't deal with them etc etc I don't wish to sound negative but what does that say about the child's upbringing?

Well said.