Islam does not support joint family system.Try convincing your parents from religious aspect.Al tough I strongly adore the idea of a son living with parents.A son is afather’s arm.
Re: Want to move out
Islam does not support joint family system.Try convincing your parents from religious aspect.Al tough I strongly adore the idea of a son living with parents.A son is afather's arm.
Islam does not support a joint family system as it exists in Paki households. Where there is no Parda from ghair mahram men and everyone hangs out together. However, it is not correct to say that Islam does not support the joint family system, because as as long as you keep you parda it is o.k. I live with my parents, my wife/kids--and my brother who is also married with kids. I have never seen my Phabis hair-our conversation begins with Salaam and ends with Wa salaam..My brother and I both have keys to the house but we never use them because we have to ring the bell/or knock and wait for everyone to be ready for us (put on hijab-cover up etc) and then open the door for us. The kitchen has a separate curtain on it and I can't go there without knocking and getting clearance. While we are at work, our wives hang out with our mom/dad//and when we come back we separate in to our sections. The no joint family thing is more of an arab thing than an Islamic thing, but it's true that the way it exists in desi families is definitely not allowed. Living separately is the right of the wife but remember if you are going to use Islam as an excuse then remember that Hazrat Aisha had 1 room and it was so small that Prophet SAW would have to ask her to move while reading tahajjud so he can make sajda. So those women who want to use Islam as a reason to separate, then please also accept something similar to Hardhat Aisha's room. Also if joint family system was not allowed in Islam then we wouldn't have this famous hadith..
read this hadith and tell me if the son was living with the parents or using skype to check up on them..
Allah's Apostle said, "While three persons were traveling, they were overtaken by rain and they took shelter in a cave in a mountain. A big rock fell from the mountain over the mouth of the cave and blocked it. They said to each other. 'Think of such good (righteous) deeds which, you did for Allah's sake only, and invoke Allah by giving reference to those deeds so that Allah may relieve you from your difficulty. one of them said, 'O Allah! I had my parents who were very old and I had small children for whose sake I used to work as a shepherd. When I returned to them at night and milked (the sheep), I used to start giving the milk to my parents first before giving to my children. And one day I went far away in search of a grazing place (for my sheep), and didn't return home till late at night and found that my parents had slept. I milked (my livestock) as usual and brought the milk vessel and stood at their heads, and I disliked to wake them up from their sleep, and I also disliked to give the milk to my children before my parents though my children were crying (from hunger) at my feet.
So this state of mine and theirs continued till the day dawned. (O Allah!) If you considered that I had done that only for seeking Your pleasure, then please let there be an opening through which we can see the sky.' So Allah made for them an opening through which they could see the sky.
I am going to take a guess here and say that the man lived with his wife and kids with his parents.
Here are more for fun..I think "dutiful" goes beyond calling them on EId.
I heard Abi Amr 'Ash-Shaibani saying, "The owner of this house." he pointed to 'Abdullah's house, "said, 'I asked the Prophet 'Which deed is loved most by Allah?" He replied, 'To offer prayers at their early (very first) stated times.' " 'Abdullah asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" The Prophet said, "To be good and dutiful to one's parents," 'Abdullah asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" The Prophet said, To participate in Jihad for Allah's Cause." 'Abdullah added, "The Prophet narrated to me these three things, and if I had asked more, he would have told me more."
Allah's Apostle said thrice, "Shall I not inform you of the biggest of the great sins?" We said, "Yes, O Allah's Apostle" He said, "To join partners in worship with Allah: to be undutiful to one's parents.
Re: Want to move out
so......he'd rather not have fed his starving kids?
that explains it.
Re: Want to move out
What is the lesson here? That in Islam, its better to keep small children crying throughout the night and force them to stay hungry (even when we have food to feed them) rather than wake up another adult from their sleep?
Re: Want to move out
Islam does not support a joint family system as it exists in Paki households. Where there is no Parda from ghair mahram men and everyone hangs out together. However, it is not correct to say that Islam does not support the joint family system, because as as long as you keep you parda it is o.k. I live with my parents, my wife/kids--and my brother who is also married with kids. I have never seen my Phabis hair-our conversation begins with Salaam and ends with Wa salaam..My brother and I both have keys to the house but we never use them because we have to ring the bell/or knock and wait for everyone to be ready for us (put on hijab-cover up etc) and then open the door for us. The kitchen has a separate curtain on it and I can't go there without knocking and getting clearance. While we are at work, our wives hang out with our mom/dad//and when we come back we separate in to our sections. The no joint family thing is more of an arab thing than an Islamic thing, but it's true that the way it exists in desi families is definitely not allowed. Living separately is the right of the wife but remember if you are going to use Islam as an excuse then remember that Hazrat Aisha had 1 room and it was so small that Prophet SAW would have to ask her to move while reading tahajjud so he can make sajda. So those women who want to use Islam as a reason to separate, then please also accept something similar to Hardhat Aisha's room. Also if joint family system was not allowed in Islam then we wouldn't have this famous hadith.. read this hadith and tell me if the son was living with the parents or using skype to check up on them..
Allah's Apostle said, "While three persons were traveling, they were overtaken by rain and they took shelter in a cave in a mountain. A big rock fell from the mountain over the mouth of the cave and blocked it. They said to each other. 'Think of such good (righteous) deeds which, you did for Allah's sake only, and invoke Allah by giving reference to those deeds so that Allah may relieve you from your difficulty. one of them said, 'O Allah! I had my parents who were very old and I had small children for whose sake I used to work as a shepherd. When I returned to them at night and milked (the sheep), I used to start giving the milk to my parents first before giving to my children. And one day I went far away in search of a grazing place (for my sheep), and didn't return home till late at night and found that my parents had slept. I milked (my livestock) as usual and brought the milk vessel and stood at their heads, and I disliked to wake them up from their sleep, and I also disliked to give the milk to my children before my parents though my children were crying (from hunger) at my feet. So this state of mine and theirs continued till the day dawned. (O Allah!) If you considered that I had done that only for seeking Your pleasure, then please let there be an opening through which we can see the sky.' So Allah made for them an opening through which they could see the sky.
I am going to take a guess here and say that the man lived with his wife and kids with his parents.
Here are more for fun..I think "dutiful" goes beyond calling them on EId.
I heard Abi Amr 'Ash-Shaibani saying, "The owner of this house." he pointed to 'Abdullah's house, "said, 'I asked the Prophet 'Which deed is loved most by Allah?" He replied, 'To offer prayers at their early (very first) stated times.' " 'Abdullah asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" The Prophet said, "To be good and dutiful to one's parents," 'Abdullah asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" The Prophet said, To participate in Jihad for Allah's Cause." 'Abdullah added, "The Prophet narrated to me these three things, and if I had asked more, he would have told me more."
Allah's Apostle said thrice, "Shall I not inform you of the biggest of the great sins?" We said, "Yes, O Allah's Apostle" He said, "To join partners in worship with Allah: to be undutiful to one's parents.
Jazak Allah Khair.I am neither pious nor evil but when it comes to parents I make sure to obligate myself according to their desires.Their wish is my command, by default.
Re: Want to move out
This is a quotation from a Hadith. There are commentaries on this hadith. You believe in hadith as much as I do, so don’t hold me responsible to explain it then. The hadith is authentic and for explanation, please refer to commentary from scholars not me. Or maybe you are doubting this ever happened, then please check your eman since I said the hadith is authentic.
Re: Want to move out
^ If you don't want to or can't simply explain the lesson that is meant to be taught by that story....that's fine. Since you posted it here, I assumed YOU were trying to make a point and I'm just wondering what that point is.
Either way.......it doesn't matter. We're geting off track now anyway. We now know OP is a girl to let's just stay focused on her concerns.
Re: Want to move out
As for the OP, I’d say moving out is a bit extreme, where you would end up with a lot of unexpected issues. Obviously it’s not what they want and I doubt it’s what you really want either. As Muzna said, you should just better communicate with them.
Do you really think there’s an issue of the families starving if the men are able to afford to travel abroad, particularly for studies?
The problems with our joint family systems aren’t limited to pardah. I’ve even seen writings of ulema saying that the rights of the daughter-in-laws in these situations are often trampled. In the subcontinent, customs where the DIL is essentially made a slave to the entire household have been adopted even by Muslims. According to Islam, she’s isn’t even required to serve her in-laws.
I have lived with a similar arrangement, but decided to move out for everyone’s benefit. I still see my parents almost every day. Our family is still very close. I’ve also encouraged several newly married friends to get separate accommodation if they could afford it once married for the following reasons:
Less pressure on the wife–she can and should be free in her own place and not feel constrained by other peoples’ routines (apart from husband’s or her kids)
Double standards between parents and their children – for the children, they don’t think twice about this stuff but their wives have a hard time with it
Pulling others’ weight – sometimes the work of the household isn’t distribute work equally, and there are often double standards with this, and this ends up being an unfair arragement to someone
So a lot of things like these could happen, which will leave people bitter towards each other. I’d say it’s much better to live separately to avoid all this rather than stay together and keep building up tension. What I’ve also see (well technically heard of) is where the in-laws bully the wife and interfere too much in the husband and wife . So there I’d say a guy is dumb for not moving out if there isn’t a dire reason not to.
The separate accommodation is a right of the wife. The husband has to fulfill it according to his ability. So if he’s providing his parents with the latest car, appliances etc. and makes his wife settle for a small room, then that isn’t appropriate either.
I’m not an aalim, but I’ve heard this brought up in talks by ulema. I’ve never once heard them say that a man should live in a joint family. However, it has been used to talk about sincerity of intention and showing respect to parents. I’ve heard ulema themselves encouraging separate living.
Sure, but moving out to live separately with your family (i.e. wife, kids) isn’t automatically equal to being undutiful to parents.
In the context he brought it up, I guess it’s that the joint family system isn’t an entirely alien concept in Islam.
Re: Want to move out
I think the biggest objection the Ulema have had with the joint family system is the lack of parda and free mixing with ghair mahram men...and yes also the interfering of women (MIL) with the affairs..that will happen even if you living in a different country..but point taken..yes there are other issues as well..So what is recommended for the parents when they reach old age and can't get out of bed on their own? I don't mean only physically, but psychologically where like Alzhemer's and other ideation apraxias developed with old age.. I know first hand what happens to the elderly when they are being taken care of by someone other than their own son/daughter..I think they'd be better of dead then humiliated and passed around like an unwanted piece of furniture..and if you think that anyone else will care for your parents like you..you are in denial..and it's funny how the same people who favored moving out right away after marriage are often the ones complaining about how their children left them and don't care for them...lets hope some people in this forum are not those people when they are old and hold on to this conviction when they themselves are old and can't get out of bed on their own..i hope you guys don't complain...especially the girls who so badly favor moving out...Please hold on to this conviction for your son and daughter in law down the line...From the cases I have seen, old people who are not directly taken care of by their own kids ( i mean more than a phone call everyday) are usually better of passing away with dignity than live in that state...I know specific cases of this from my relatives..this is what frightens me. Also with these ahadith, i can't see how one can do that while living elsewhere and seeing parents every now and again..
]Prophet Mohammad](Sallallaho Alaihe Wasallam) "what are the rights that are due to parents?" He replied, "They are your jannah and jahanam" . Their happiness is Jannah and their displeasure is Jahannam. Further it is stated in the Hadith that, "When an obedient son looks with love and devotion to his parents, the rewards for that gaze shall be the same as for amaqbool (accepted)". In another Hadith it is stated that, "Apart from associating other gods with **Allah, Allah for gives all as He pleases. However, He inflicts the punishments for disobedience to parents in this world before death" . A Sahaabi Said, "O Prophet Mohammad (Sallallaho Alaihe Wasallam), I want to go for Jihad".],Prophet Mohammad (Sallallaho Alaihe Wasallam) asked, "Is your mother alive?" He replied, "Yes" , Prophet Mohammad (Sallallaho Alaihe Wasallam) then said, "Serve her, Jannah lies beneath her feet ***In this hadith, serving the mother is given preference over Jihad..how does one not go for jihad to serve his mother and then move out because a pretty little wife all of sudden is the expert in the fiqh of a woman's right to separate accommodations and invokes that right. Also, separate accommodations don't mean ]separate house, they mean [separat space for the wife where her privacy can be maintained and she does not have to fear someone encroaching upon her space..that can be a separate] floor of the house or a ]separatesection of the house that is allocated to her..Prophet SAW is the best of example in giving rights to his wives and he had every means to accommodate them according to the shariah..so what was their accommodations? Did they all get separate villas? They all got rooms (hijras) next to each other, I don't know when that got translated into the right to have separate houses ... it's funny to see a woman with no hijab and namaz use that as an excuse to separate as if she is dying to do everything sharee and this just happens to be a part of it..are we going to say naausbillah that prohet SAW was not giving them their rights by giving each a room next to each other? I think this is just a case of using Islam for our own convenience.. if the Shariah required more than that, the Prophet SAW would have done so, he had the means to do so as the nabi and would have done everything to please Allah..Anyway, what I m saying is that the separate accommodation sharee ruling does not encompass separate villas with the latest in Italian house ware..if you can afford it, so be it... but a right to privacy, personal space, where she is not encroached upon by strangers/non mehrum men is what is required etc. One last thing, the hadith about the guy who waited for his parents with the milk was told to us as a lesson, not just as an exception...also prophet SAW related that story and didn't say they guy failed to give his wife separate accommodations and was living in joint family which according to some here is not allowed in islam..this is the guy whose dua moved the rock and he is being told to us by Prophet SAw as an example/lesson. *****
Re: Want to move out
Leaving elderly parents who actually need someone to look after them is a separate issue altogether. This is not usually the case when a newly married couple move to their own place. I've seen many cases where the couple has moved out after marriage and when the parents reach old age, they are brought to live with the family. This type of arrangement can help to prevent a lot of issues between the wives and their in-laws. Sure, the in-laws can even try to interfere when they are in separate countries, but even then, that distance keeps the things a notch better than if they were living together.
Having known of how certain in-laws interfere in the lives of their DILs, I can't blame them for wanting to have their own place. Just the physical separation does help a lot. And there's no reason why simply having a separate accommodation would not allow someone to fulfill all the ahadith which you just listed.
Sure, separate accommodation may not necessarily mean a separate building but could do with a separate floor or room etc. In many joint families, would that separate section be respected by the in-laws? From examples I know of, no. Even if you're to say that this room belongs to the son's wife, the in-laws still go in there without her permission and pry into their personal things. So even if you're technically giving her those quarters for her privacy etc. that right is not being fulfilled. You mention that women who don't practice other aspects of deen will invoke their right to a separate accommodation. On the other hand, you'll have parents who'll invoke their right to be served by the son, and then demand things from the DIL as well, though she has no sharee duty to them so it's not a one way street.
Re: Want to move out
Yes but do u realistically c a woman not used to sharing her space all of her married life accept her husbands sick parents to now live with and be a burden on her suddenly? I dont think so... that's not realistic..hey wife u have been succesful in avoiding them ur whole life, but guess what my parents are moving in and cant even wash themselves..my father has dementia and therefore has lost inhibition for saying inappropriate things so b ready for that too..and my mom soils her self...wife will say pick me or them and no need to guess who the obedient husband will pick..chapter closed..oh sorry husband will b sending parents money..more like throwing a bone to keep eceryone quiet...
Re: Want to move out
Yes but do u realistically c a woman not used to sharing her space all of her married life accept her husbands sick parents to now live with and be a burden on her suddenly?
If she was forced to stay with them and endure their tantrums, wouldn't she end up thinking of them as unwanted furniture when you're asking her to tend to them?
Re: Want to move out
Yes but do u realistically c a woman not used to sharing her space all of her married life accept her husbands sick parents to now live with and be a burden on her suddenly? I dont think so... that's not realistic..hey wife u have been succesful in avoiding them ur whole life, but guess what my parents are moving in and cant even wash themselves..my father has dementia and therefore has lost inhibition for saying inappropriate things so b ready for that too..and my mom soils her self...wife will say pick me or them and no need to guess who the obedient husband will pick..chapter closed..oh sorry husband will b sending parents money..more like throwing a bone to keep eceryone quiet...
I don't know a single woman who has done that in my family or the people I know. Have you?
[Split Thread] The Joint Family System
Seriously lol
Re: [Split Thread] The Joint Family System
Honestly religion shouldn't dictate every aspect of our decision making process. Yes Islam is a complete way of life but we decide every day if some elements will work for us and some won't. Like for me personally eating halal all the time is not possible. I like my steaks. So I choose not to eat halal here. I personally believe joint family systems are difficult if everybody is living in the same house all the freaking time. Taking care of sick parents doesn't constitute as joint family in my opinion. That is your duty.
Joint family in my humble opinion is the sons and daughters, their spouses and their kids still living with their parents. All 100 people in one house. That is just horrendous in the scale of today's modern society. That is a joint family system. However when the sons and daughters have their own homes and take care of their parents that is usually a different element to it all.
The kids and their spouses are running their own homes, the parents are living with them for care and attention when they need it in their old age. So I basically agree with Captain Obvious.
Re: [Split Thread] The Joint Family System
[quote]
Joint family in my humble opinion is the sons and daughters, their spouses and their kids still living with their parents. All 100 people in one house. That is just horrendous in the scale of today's modern society. That is a joint family system. However when the sons and daughters have their own homes and take care of their parents that is usually a different element to it all.
The kids and their spouses are running their own homes, the parents are living with them for care and attention when they need it in their old age. So I basically agree with Captain Obvious.
[/QUOTE]
I agree with you on this.
Yes but do u realistically c a woman not used to sharing her space all of her married life accept her husbands sick parents to now live with and be a burden on her suddenly? I dont think so... that's not realistic..hey wife u have been succesful in avoiding them ur whole life, but guess what my parents are moving in and cant even wash themselves..my father has dementia and therefore has lost inhibition for saying inappropriate things so b ready for that too..and my mom soils her self...wife will say pick me or them and no need to guess who the obedient husband will pick..chapter closed..oh sorry husband will b sending parents money..more like throwing a bone to keep eceryone quiet...
Technically, it shouldnt be a burden on her, because the cleaning and washing for them is your duty, not the wife. She isnt required to cook, clean or laundry for you let alone your parents. So if there is even a small expectation from her, then you are in the wrong. She will however be responsible for the upkeep and care of her own ageing parents, so make surea you keep that in mind.
I dont have a problem with joint family, providing each family unit has their own living space and privacy and freedom to do their own thing without interference from others. And that doesnt just mean a separate bedroom, or three families holed up in one small house. That is simply ridiculous.
Islam emphasises on respect for parents; but equally emphasises on other things such as; kindness to the wife ( the best of you is the one who is kind to his wife) and protecting the sanctity of marriage, as a pillar of society.
A marriage that risks break down risks tearing apart the relations and unity of a large segment of a community. its affects are quite widespread, including on innocent children, and not just about the couple divorcing and going on their merry way. Hence divorce is the most disliked of the permitted acts.
So everything has to be done in order to protect that unit, even if it means providing a separate accommodation, or providing help for the household chores, its the least a man can do for his wife, as a means to restore or maintain harmony in the family.
Re: [Split Thread] The Joint Family System
No what I am saying is that most conservative people who espouse views on the internet forget that Islam is far more flexible than they portray it as. There is a lot of flexibility in the faith that Muslims refuse to accept or point out.
Re: [Split Thread] The Joint Family System
No what I am saying is that most conservative people who espouse views on the internet forget that Islam is far more flexible than they portray it as. There is a lot of flexibility in the faith that Muslims refuse to accept or point out.
Can you point out any examples where it is being portrayed as more rigid than it really is?
Re: [Split Thread] The Joint Family System
Yeah guys and isn’t killing also permitted during a war. Islam isn’t as inflexible as you lot make it out to be. Every once in a while I like to strangle a random woman to death. Would you people please stop giving Islam a bum rap?
Someone give this guy a medal.