Split: Religion vis a vis Shrine/Buildings/graves

[ajazali]

Re: Split: Religion vis a vis Shrine/Buildings/graves

I have few questions.
Any reference of Hadith from which we can imply that sajood out of respect is haram but not shirk?
How would you explain shirk e khafi?

I believe, prostration is part of worshiping Allah (swt), and being prostrated is atribute of Allah (swt).

[psyah]

Re: Split: Religion vis a vis Shrine/Buildings/graves

Salam Alaikum Psyah

I disagree with this example. Disagree with point B specifically

If a person Calls upon RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam to forgive his sins or to ask forgiveness it is not necessarily Shirk. Since there is this possibility that it was not Shirk the Islamic Fatwa must remain that it is not Shirk

Having said, like everything else, Only Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala can forgive sins. Merely Asking RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam to forgive sins is not shirk. For it to be Shirk it must be accompanied by other elements which infringe upon Tawheed. Like for example dependency. If a person was to ask RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam to forgive sins thinking that RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam was able to do this 'independently' then that would be shirk. However if a person was to ask RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam as a way to gain, be informed, of the Judgement of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala then that would be tawheed. This also includs situations where a person may feel Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala may not forgive them directly, but will Allow RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam to forgive them on His behalf (a bit like Intercession out of Hellfire).

The point is that the situation described in the example is insufficient to declare Shirk. For it to be Shirk it has to be done with a certain belief of equality in an Attribute, or for it to be not given by Allah (independently gained)

ps There is other points made by other posters on page 2 which i feel i must reply to. In Sha Allah in time

Wa'alaikumuSalam brother vroom

Then you and I differ on this detail ... Because Shirk comes from Shareek .... Some things are only the Right of Allah (SWT) and they must be understood to be so. The Attribute of Ghafoor is with Allah (SWT) alone. It's not about equality ... The Sifaat of Allah (SWT) cannot be shared by anyone, not even in the slightest.

Furthermore you will find no evidence in our scriptures where people have asked RasoolAllah (SAW) to forgive sins. Rather I could point to the verses in the Qur'an to demonstrate this, you will see plenty of references to show people asking RasoolAllah (SAW) to seek forgiveness for them, but never to grant it ... and I request that you check this out from your scholars too.

[psyah]

Re: Split: Religion vis a vis Shrine/Buildings/graves

@ajazali

I have few questions.
Any reference of Hadith from which we can imply that sajood out of respect is haram but not shirk?
How would you explain shirk e khafi?

I believe, prostration is part of worshiping Allah (swt), and being prostrated is atribute of Allah (swt).

If that is the case then please show from which Attribute of Allah (SWT) this is the case … which of the 99 Names? Furthermore, this is not made up … Previous ummahs were allowed to prostrate to other people. It’s not allowed for this ummah though.

Please read this ayah:

Surat Yusuf [12:100] - The Noble Qur’an - ??? ???

And he raised his parents upon the throne, and they bowed to him in prostration. And he said, "O my father, this is the explanation of my vision of before. My Lord has made it reality. And He was certainly good to me when He took me out of prison and brought you [here] from bedouin life after Satan had induced [estrangement] between me and my brothers. Indeed, my Lord is Subtle in what He wills. Indeed, it is He who is the Knowing, the Wise.

Is what Sayyiduna Ya’qoub (AS) and his wife doing shirk (Auzdubillah) or something else?

You see most important is to obtain a consistent understanding of our scriptures.

[psyah]

Re: Split: Religion vis a vis Shrine/Buildings/graves

OK. :)

Most common criticism against the sajda for ghair-Allah is based on ** Sajdah by itself is form of worship.**

Regardless of intention, the posture assumed in sajdah is prohibited for anyone other than Allah.

Sajdah is not required to show respect to anyone except Allah.

I think this definition exercise of haram, versus kufr **versus **shirk,... does not change the fact that "shaksiyat Parasti" is the beginning of many many problems and particularly among People from SE Asia and Muslims.

By saying oh it is not shirk but haram does not make it acceptable, right?

There is so much exploitation, deception, crimes, unislamic acts, which are associated with this kind of mindset of shakhsiyat parasti and making an Aalim/Sufi Qabar a place of 'worship'. These are the places where women and men get exploited by crooks.

Absolutely the shirk and haram of Sajdah is purely an academic distinction and in practical terms it is about learning to be lenient on others but strict on oneself ... It teaches us not to rush in to takfir but at the same time avoid such acts for ourselves with plenty of caution.

That is true plenty of crooks out there and plenty of simpletons, but the simpletons don't get punished for their sincerity ... We need to understand that also.

[diwana]

Re: Split: Religion vis a vis Shrine/Buildings/graves

Absolutely the shirk and haram of Sajdah is purely an academic distinction and in practical terms it is about learning to be lenient on others but strict on oneself ... It teaches us not to rush in to takfir but at the same time avoid such acts for ourselves with plenty of caution.

That is true plenty of crooks out there and plenty of simpletons, but the simpletons don't get punished for their sincerity ... We need to understand that also.

Absolutely.

There is a need from all sources to educate people about this. There is a slippery slope in all sort of ideologies and this needs to be recognized.

Love for sufis or Ulemas to extreme,.. and ultra- superstitious beliefs bring anarchy and acts against the true message they tried to convey.

[diwana]

Re: Split: Religion vis a vis Shrine/Buildings/graves

@psyah

If that is the case then please show from which Attribute of Allah (SWT) this is the case … which of the 99 Names? Furthermore, this is not made up … Previous ummahs were allowed to prostrate to other people. It’s not allowed for this ummah though.

Please read this ayah:

Surat Yusuf [12:100] - The Noble Qur’an - ??? ???

And he raised his parents upon the throne, and they bowed to him in prostration. And he said, "O my father, this is the explanation of my vision of before. My Lord has made it reality. And He was certainly good to me when He took me out of prison and brought you [here] from bedouin life after Satan had induced [estrangement] between me and my brothers. Indeed, my Lord is Subtle in what He wills. Indeed, it is He who is the Knowing, the Wise.

Is what Sayyiduna Ya’qoub (AS) and his wife doing shirk (Auzdubillah) or something else?

You see most important is to obtain a consistent understanding of our scriptures.

This does not make it acceptable (halal) for people to do sajdah (regardless of their intention) to anyone except Allah.

There are other verses in Quran against Sajdah to Ghairullah and hadiths like Husbands to be worthy of sajdah if it were to be allowed.

When something is haram then why do it?

[ajazali]

Re: Split: Religion vis a vis Shrine/Buildings/graves

@psyah

If that is the case then please show from which Attribute of Allah (SWT) this is the case … which of the 99 Names? Furthermore, this is not made up … Previous ummahs were allowed to prostrate to other people. It’s not allowed for this ummah though.

Please read this ayah:

Surat Yusuf [12:100] - The Noble Qur’an - ??? ???

And he raised his parents upon the throne, and they bowed to him in prostration. And he said, "O my father, this is the explanation of my vision of before. My Lord has made it reality. And He was certainly good to me when He took me out of prison and brought you [here] from bedouin life after Satan had induced [estrangement] between me and my brothers. Indeed, my Lord is Subtle in what He wills. Indeed, it is He who is the Knowing, the Wise.

Is what Sayyiduna Ya’qoub (AS) and his wife doing shirk (Auzdubillah) or something else?

You see most important is to obtain a consistent understanding of our scriptures.

fair enough.
but your counter question is not the answer of my question. As revelations changed methods of worship changed too, while basic towheed was same. Since most of our mandatory ibadah include sajood to Allah(swt) it is more likely sajood out of respect could be a type of shirk as shirk e khafi. Salfis would consider it plain shirk.

[psyah]

Re: Split: Religion vis a vis Shrine/Buildings/graves

This does not make it acceptable (halal) for people to do sajdah (regardless of their intention) to anyone except Allah.

There are other verses in Quran against Sajdah to Ghairullah and hadiths like Husbands to be worthy of sajdah if it were to be allowed.

When something is haram then why do it?

You can be rest assured that I don't

[psyah]

Re: Split: Religion vis a vis Shrine/Buildings/graves

fair enough. but your counter question is not the answer of my question. As revelations changed methods of worship changed too, while basic towheed was same. Since most of our mandatory ibadah include sajood to Allah(swt) it is more likely sajood out of respect could be a type of shirk as shirk e khafi. Salfis would consider it plain shirk.

That is true the Salafis would consider it so, and they follow the minority in this ... As I said earlier Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah (RA) did have this opinion, but the majority have rejected that as clear cut shirk. The rest is for people to to do Taqlid in which ever scholar they wish, even the people who think they do not do Taqlid.

[diwana]

Re: Split: Religion vis a vis Shrine/Buildings/graves

@psyah

You can be rest assured that I don’t

Oh goodie!

I was saying that in general.

[vroom]

Re: Split: Religion vis a vis Shrine/Buildings/graves

To expect the deceased to somehow help the living, and then to wonder how there's nothing wrong with that at all. Laa Hawla wala quwwata illa billa.

Those of us who are living are at an advantage because we still have the opportunity to earn Hasanat, and ask forgiveness for our sins, and do good, while the books of the deceased are sealed except for the good that they leave behind that others follow. The only One able to help anyone is Allah alone, not any other being dead or alive. Allah permits His creations to become a waseela for someone else, but it is Allah alone who we should ask for help, and it is Allah alone who blesses our affairs and puts barakah in all that we do.

The most well known sunnah of Rasool Allah (Peace and Blessings be upon him) was to seek comfort in Salah, and ask for help in Dua. This is the chain of barakah that we ought to follow because Rasool Allah (s.a.w.) provided us the sure way to success in the dunya and akhira.

I understand the devotion that some of us have for Awliya of Allah, and they should be revered and respected, their wisdom should be attained and shared with others, but to take any of them as a mediary is a slippery slope. That's really all I can think of saying, because I don't want to offend anyone whose beliefs vis a vis the topic may differ. The important thing that we should be thankful for is that we're all a family, a united body and an Ummah.

Allah knows best what our intentions are. May Allah strengthen our Imaan and increase us all in Taqwa and reliance upon Allah alone.

The first couple of paragraphs here are mixed up and difficult to understand as to what your prospective is. It does not make sense. The first line is actually incorrect, viciously wrong. The reason I say that is because you say Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala is The Only One to Help, and not any other being dead or alive - Which is true. Laa Hawla wala quwwata illa billa

Yet we all receive help through various forms of Majaz, everyday, all the time. Unless someone claims they are receiving directly from Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala - not something that I think you are saying. Please confirm

So we are all agreed upon that, so it appears (the truth may be different in that you may think i have some power for example i have ability to lift things and possibly conduct tyrant actions like [powerful] actions which could kill a person)

However this opening line from you. I must add this opinion of yours is not recognizable as Islamically influenced to me - I mean it has no basis in Islam as per my understanding - which will be thoroughly examined In Sha Allah. As the Islamic evidences affirm our Nation has expected the Deceased to help the living. So i do see your statement as an attack on Islam, and that's why I have re-dug it because it was never my intention to leave this uncontested/unexplored.

Don't worry about offending anyone, because if we have deviated on this then we deserve being offending and besides your loyalty is to your Version of Tauheed (To proclaim the Oneness of Allah) is it not? So no worries about offense please

[QUOTE]
To expect the deceased to somehow help the living, and then to wonder how there's nothing wrong with that at all
[/QUOTE]

I expect the deceased to Help and see nothing wrong with that - **Laa Hawla wala quwwata illa billa**.

1. You have an erroneous belief regarding the deceased's ability to help which is seen in the words: (...deceased to somehow help the living...) Here you have denied the ability of the deceased to help the living

2. But the main culprit of your accusations is the person who Asks, or does not Ask but Expects, so not the deceased but the Living, this can be seen in the words: (To expect the deceased...)

3. This person is guilty of not knowing what is wrong with that, All Power belongs to Allah, which the living expectant has negated: (...and then to wonder how there's nothing wrong with that at all. Laa Hawla wala quwwata illa billa.)

No evidence is provided here just a summary of the issues which need discussion

[psyah]

Re: Split: Religion vis a vis Shrine/Buildings/graves

@diwana

Oh goodie!

I was saying that in general.

Thanks brother diwana … This conversation goes back to the accusation of “shirk” … why do something haram is a different matter to the accusation of shirk. I was merely trying to say although it is haram, we cannot necessarily blame others for doing shirk on account of it.

[teggy]

Re: Split: Religion vis a vis Shrine/Buildings/graves

The first couple of paragraphs here are mixed up and difficult to understand as to what your prospective is. It does not make sense. The first line is actually incorrect, viciously wrong. The reason I say that is because you say Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala is The Only One to Help, and not any other being dead or alive - Which is true. Laa Hawla wala quwwata illa billa

Yet we all receive help through various forms of Majaz, everyday, all the time. Unless someone claims they are receiving directly from Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala - not something that I think you are saying. Please confirm

So we are all agreed upon that, so it appears (the truth may be different in that you may think i have some power for example i have ability to lift things and possibly conduct tyrant actions like [powerful] actions which could kill a person)

However this opening line from you. I must add this opinion of yours is not recognizable as Islamically influenced to me - I mean it has no basis in Islam as per my understanding - which will be thoroughly examined In Sha Allah. As the Islamic evidences affirm our Nation has expected the Deceased to help the living. So i do see your statement as an attack on Islam, and that's why I have re-dug it because it was never my intention to leave this uncontested/unexplored.

Don't worry about offending anyone, because if we have deviated on this then we deserve being offending and besides your loyalty is to your Version of Tauheed (To proclaim the Oneness of Allah) is it not? So no worries about offense please

I expect the deceased to Help and see nothing wrong with that - **Laa Hawla wala quwwata illa billa**.

1. You have an erroneous belief regarding the deceased's ability to help which is seen in the words: (...deceased to somehow help the living...) Here you have denied the ability of the deceased to help the living

2. But the main culprit of your accusations is the person who Asks, or does not Ask but Expects, so not the deceased but the Living, this can be seen in the words: (To expect the deceased...)

3. This person is guilty of not knowing what is wrong with that, All Power belongs to Allah, which the living expectant has negated: (...and then to wonder how there's nothing wrong with that at all. Laa Hawla wala quwwata illa billa.)

No evidence is provided here just a summary of the issues which need discussion

AsSalaamo Alaikum

[vroom]

Re: Split: Religion vis a vis Shrine/Buildings/graves

AsSalaamo Alaikum

Peace

I think you have borrowed views from different sources. That's why I could not make proper sense of what you were saying. I mean saying Laa Hawla wala quwwata illa billa regards the help of the Deceased and then going on to confirm the living and dead are both unable to help is contradictory. You left me hanging as to which way you were going. With the two options being whether you would put a fatwa of shirk upon me or your own self! Yeah the issues are this cut throat.

The help of the Deceased is something confirmed by Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah, the Prophetic Narrations, and the narrations from the Salaf and the Consensus of the Scholars [of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah]. This is one of the reasons behind popularity of Mazaars
If a person is unable to gain something they feel is needed for them they go to Awliya to get for them

This is Islam

Forcing people to have the view of only asking directly to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala and other options are shirk is not Islam. these are creedal innovations. In Islam we have Islamic needs which Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala does not fulfill till you go to His People. One of these is even Hellfire, another is Islam [to be counted as a Muslim] itself, another is Forgiveness

We even have narrations of the deceased companions asking the living for help. We probably give more help to the deceased then we ask. The interaction is used both ways

All of it is Worship, Worship of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala

[vroom]

Re: Split: Religion vis a vis Shrine/Buildings/graves

@psyah

Example 1)

A Muslim calls on Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) to forgive him his sins unaware of his wrong… This is shirk, why?
A) Calling on RasoolAllah (SAW) - this is the act - there is no inherent problem in doing this.
B) The intent of asking Sayyiduna Muhammad for forgiveness is wrong - shirk
C) The knowledge of doing this is not with the person - but his shirk still applies

@vroom

Salam Alaikum Psyah

I disagree with this example. Disagree with point B specifically

If a person Calls upon RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam to forgive his sins or to ask forgiveness it is not necessarily Shirk. Since there is this possibility that it was not Shirk the Islamic Fatwa must remain that it is not Shirk

Having said, like everything else, Only Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala can forgive sins. Merely Asking RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam to forgive sins is not shirk. For it to be Shirk it must be accompanied by other elements which infringe upon Tawheed. Like for example dependency. If a person was to ask RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam to forgive sins thinking that RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam was able to do this ‘independently’ then that would be shirk. However if a person was to ask RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam as a way to gain, be informed, of the Judgement of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala then that would be tawheed. This also includs situations where a person may feel Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala may not forgive them directly, but will Allow RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam to forgive them on His behalf (a bit like Intercession out of Hellfire).

The point is that the situation described in the example is insufficient to declare Shirk. For it to be Shirk it has to be done with a certain belief of equality in an Attribute, or for it to be not given by Allah (independently gained)

ps There is other points made by other posters on page 2 which i feel i must reply to. In Sha Allah in time

@psyah

Wa’alaikumuSalam brother vroom

Then you and I differ on this detail … Because Shirk comes from Shareek … Some things are only the Right of Allah (SWT) and they must be understood to be so. The Attribute of Ghafoor is with Allah (SWT) alone. It’s not about equality … The Sifaat of Allah (SWT) cannot be shared by anyone, not even in the slightest.

Furthermore you will find no evidence in our scriptures where people have asked RasoolAllah (SAW) to forgive sins. Rather I could point to the verses in the Qur’an to demonstrate this, you will see plenty of references to show people asking RasoolAllah (SAW) to seek forgiveness for them, but never to grant it … and I request that you check this out from your scholars too.

Its from the understanding I have gained from my scholars upon which I am able to object to this

The quoted scenario is insufficient to make the allegation of Shirk

A Muslim calls on Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) to forgive him his sins

I’ll quote you from a translation of Tafsir Ibn Kathir: “… I have come to you, asking forgiveness for my sins…”
Tawassul(Waseela)

This is in Middle of the explanation, likewise the scenario quoted must be interpreted in favour of the Muslim. Stopping the allegation of Shirk right there. That’s charitable

This is less Charitable, Tanwir al-Miqbas min Tafsir Ibn Abbas:“…(and asked forgiveness of the Messenger)..”
Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs -

And with this statement (understanding) the scenario quoted is totally freed from the allegation of Shirk.

[psyah]

Re: Split: Religion vis a vis Shrine/Buildings/graves

@vroom

Its from the understanding I have gained from my scholars upon which I am able to object to this

The quoted scenario is insufficient to make the allegation of Shirk

I’ll quote you from a translation of Tafsir Ibn Kathir: “… I have come to you, asking forgiveness for my sins…”
Tawassul(Waseela)

This is in Middle of the explanation, likewise the scenario quoted must be interpreted in favour of the Muslim. Stopping the allegation of Shirk right there. That’s charitable

This is less Charitable, Tanwir al-Miqbas min Tafsir Ibn Abbas:“…(and asked forgiveness of the Messenger)..”
Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs -

And with this statement (understanding) the scenario quoted is totally freed from the allegation of Shirk.

Assalamu’alaikum brother vroom

The verse is allowing us to ask RasoolAllah (SAW) to ask Allah (SWT) to forgive our sins … It does not permit us to seek forgiveness from RasoolAllah (SAW) in the sense that we believe his (SAW) zaat will be doing the forgiving, but rather that the Zaat of Allah (SWT) will be doing the Forgiveness. Some people disallow even asking RasoolAllah (SAW) to ask on their behalf, because they say - he (SAW) is dead … Auzdubillah … I accept that we may ask from him (SAW) in the same way as that we would ask from him (SAW) when he (SAW) was walking with us. However, I contest anything to do with giving the Right of Allah (SWT) to any other than Him and Forgiveness of sins is one of those rights.

That is what I meant earlier … so what you have presented does not disagree with what I have said … but if you find anything, inshaAllah I would like to take a look.

[vroom]

Re: Split: Religion vis a vis Shrine/Buildings/graves

Assalamu'alaikum brother vroom

The verse is allowing us to ask RasoolAllah (SAW) to ask Allah (SWT) to forgive our sins ... It does not permit us to seek forgiveness from RasoolAllah (SAW) in the sense that we believe his (SAW) zaat will be doing the forgiving, but rather that the Zaat of Allah (SWT) will be doing the Forgiveness. Some people disallow even asking RasoolAllah (SAW) to ask on their behalf, because they say - he (SAW) is dead ... Auzdubillah ... I accept that we may ask from him (SAW) in the same way as that we would ask from him (SAW) when he (SAW) was walking with us. However, I contest anything to do with giving the Right of Allah (SWT) to any other than Him and Forgiveness of sins is one of those rights.

That is what I meant earlier ... so what you have presented does not disagree with what I have said ... but if you find anything, inshaAllah I would like to take a look.

Wa Alaikum Salam

I have got the quotes from tafsirs on the verse of forgiveness through RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam, but I have not tried to counter what you said using the verse. I know you know the details of the verse

What the quotes show is that you were incorrect in what you said, not what you meant. What you meant can be interpreted as correct but challenge-able by inclusion of the word Muslim. But I am not going to do that.

The difference between meant and said is like the apparent and the intention. Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala has not given us the permission to categorically say the quoted statement is Shirk.
The apparent of the statement can be interpreted as not shirk so this is what should be done*
*

[psyah]

Re: Split: Religion vis a vis Shrine/Buildings/graves

Wa Alaikum Salam

I have got the quotes from tafsirs on the verse of forgiveness through RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam, but I have not tried to counter what you said using the verse. I know you know the details of the verse

What the quotes show is that you were incorrect in what you said, not what you meant. What you meant can be interpreted as correct but challenge-able by inclusion of the word Muslim. But I am not going to do that.

The difference between meant and said is like the apparent and the intention. Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala has not given us the permission to categorically say the quoted statement is Shirk. The apparent of the statement can be interpreted as not shirk so this is what should be done

Peace brother vroom

If all your contention lies on the way I phrased my statement then I apologise ... I pray Allah (SWT) increases me in being able to express myself properly ... please pray for me. You know what I meant and it seems you agree with me. Alhumdulillah.

[vroom]

Re: Split: Religion vis a vis Shrine/Buildings/graves

Peace brother vroom

If all your contention lies on the way I phrased my statement then I apologise ... I pray Allah (SWT) increases me in being able to express myself properly ... please pray for me. You know what I meant and it seems you agree with me. Alhumdulillah.

Salam Alaikum

There is a way where what you said could amount to shirk, there is other ways the statement would not amount to shirk. So the fatwa on the quoted scenario must remain it is not shirk. This is my understanding of how the Shariah should be applied
Speaking for myself I can say RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam can be asked in the direct manner for anything from the Treasures of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala.

The Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah celebrate [SubhanAllah] the bestowment upon RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam to give from the treasures of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala

Comparing RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala is a taymiyyian ploy, used by people of falsehood to create a spirit of coldness/insolence towards RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam. All the groups who use this tactic are insolent

[vroom]

Re: Split: Religion vis a vis Shrine/Buildings/graves

Any feedback Psyah?