i don’t think the defacing a grave is a good thing but i do not subscribe to the idea of making pakki graves given the grave worshiping is on the rise. a mortal’s sign of existence on this planet earth should not be maintained. let it naturally disappear. it’s my personal opinion based on Islamic religious teachings.
Re: ISIS Destroys Tomb of Prophet Of Jonah (Younus)
One of the comforting factors of the original uprising against Bashar Assad was that it was being fought by Sunni Muslims who visited and maintained Shrines. In my view visiting Shrines of Anbiya and Awliya is an act of piety, and an act done by a person of correct Islamic Understanding
there is a conspiracy taking place that is the identity theft of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah (those that built Shrines from the east to the west). The religion is being hijacked by people who dislike graves and shrines, they put themselves about in the public and make themselves available to answer questions and run Islamic programs and even run jamaats
This is the growing trend in parts of the world where Islam is thought to be the dominant religion. They are knocking down what was previously built and maintained by Muslims
Ya Allah send your punishment upon these vile people including their supporters who are imposing their misunderstanding upon Muslims,
Ya Allah allow me to visit your special people at their resting places, and give me Barakat (permanent blessings) from the visit
Re: ISIS Destroys Tomb of Prophet Of Jonah (Younus)
One of the comforting factors of the original uprising against Bashar Assad was that it was being fought by Sunni Muslims who visited and maintained Shrines. In my view visiting Shrines of Anbiya and Awliya is an act of piety, and an act done by a person of correct Islamic Understanding
there is a conspiracy taking place that is the identity theft of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah (those that built Shrines from the east to the west). The religion is being hijacked by people who dislike graves and shrines, they put themselves about in the public and make themselves available to answer questions and run Islamic programs and even run jamaats
This is the growing trend in parts of the world where Islam is thought to be the dominant religion. They are knocking down what was previously built and maintained by Muslims
Ya Allah send your punishment upon these vile people including their supporters who are imposing their misunderstanding upon Muslims, Ya Allah allow me to visit your special people at their resting places, and give me Barakat (permanent blessings) from the visit
AsSalaamo Alaikum,
I can understand your concern about hijacking of the religion; indeed that is a worrysome trend. But, you can counter the effort of those attempting to hijack it by presenting the correct image and making yourself available, and starting programs even at local level, who knows you may inspire others to do it at a bigger scale. Every little bit counts.
I see it as a surprise that you seem to forget the hadith from Sahih Bukhari:
[quote]
*Volume 9, Book 83, Number 6: * Narrated 'Abdullah:
The Prophet said, "No human being is killed unjustly, but a part of responsibility for the crime is laid on the first son of Adam who invented the tradition of killing (murdering) on the earth. (It is said that he was Qabil).
[/quote]
By the same token, since you own up to building of, and maintaining of shrines, do you ever wonder if you would be held accountable for those people from among the population who go to these shrines and commit unislamic acts under the guise of getting barakah? Just a yes, or no answer would suffice.
Ahlus Sunnah in definition is those who maintain the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.), please narrate to me for the sake of increasing my knowledge where Rasool Allah (s.a.w) or the rightly guided companions (r.a.) of Rasool Allah (s.a.w.) built shrines, and then went to them to get barakah? Authentic hadiths are usually corraborated from various sources, so it should be easy to cite for reference sake. JazakAllah Khair.
I am against destroying heritage, and places of significance, but you take it to a whole other level which I have a hard time comprehending, thus me asking you to provide precise answers.
Also, to you as my brother in Islam, it would be more beneficial to the ummah if you ask for Hidayah for others rather than asking for Allah's wrath on other muslims just because their line of thinking does not align with yours. We all need hidayah, and not one of us could claim to be a perfect follower of the Deen. Even Ibrahim (a.s.) always asked Allah for guidance, and to be able to die a believer. Lets fear our own actions, and ask for our own guidance lest we end up going further away from the straight path of mercy.
Re: ISIS Destroys Tomb of Prophet Of Jonah (Younus)
AsSalaamo Alaikum,
I can understand your concern about hijacking of the religion; indeed that is a worrysome trend. But, you can counter the effort of those attempting to hijack it by presenting the correct image and making yourself available, and starting programs even at local level, who knows you may inspire others to do it at a bigger scale. Every little bit counts.
Wa Alaikum Salam
I nor Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah can counter the trend till its appointed time. The only hope is that the learning on the ground in remote areas continues in the traditional manner. Or Isa Alaihis Salam comes and is Buried where he tastes death (He will be at a place of choice :) )
[quote]
I see it as a surprise that you seem to forget the hadith from Sahih Bukhari:
By the same token, since you own up to building of, and maintaining of shrines, do you ever wonder if you would be held accountable for those people from among the population who go to these shrines and commit unislamic acts under the guise of getting barakah? Just a yes, or no answer would suffice.
[/quote]
No
Some scholars have stipulated conditions such as stay so many feet away from Graves, act respectfully, and so on. Others i suspect have gone with the narrations and allowed the practices. This is general Shariat knowledge which is the same as knowledge in other areas of life. For example the group which heckles women does not invalidate the standing outside of the group which puts their eyes down. He who worships an Idol does not invalidate worship (worshiping of Allah).
The order/Sunnah to visit Graves was placed by The Messenger of Allah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam, and maintained by The scholars of Islam. So We go forward in this with the Blessing (Barakat) from Allah Ta'ala. We in this group includes Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala as The One from whose mercy Barakat is received at such sites
Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah believe the verse of those who wronged themselves to go to the Prophet in order to gain the forgiveness of Allah still applies!
[quote]
Ahlus Sunnah in definition is those who maintain the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.), please narrate to me for the sake of increasing my knowledge where Rasool Allah (s.a.w) or the rightly guided companions (r.a.) of Rasool Allah (s.a.w.) built shrines, and then went to them to get barakah? Authentic hadiths are usually corraborated from various sources, so it should be easy to cite for reference sake. JazakAllah Khair.
[/quote]
I'll pass on educating you right now. However you are saying a lot from your own self so you must be well educated on the subject and aware of the Narrations, reports and Ayats. Also its evident that you favor the approach of those who do not appreciate resting places of Anbiya and Awliya so it may be that i am feeding your nafs, which is a wasted exercise. Of course the people who are doing this and their supporters will have their reasons, However it must must be understood that this is not the same understanding of Muslims of yesteryear. Such changes are hallmarks of a changed religion, meaning one of them is not Islam. Does the weight of yesterdays understanding carry any weight with you? This is the first question in learning, as it will answer what you intend to learn.
[QUOTE]
I am against destroying heritage, and places of significance, but you take it to a whole other level which I have a hard time comprehending, thus me asking you to provide precise answers.
[/QUOTE]
Dude we built Mazaars from the east to the west from the north to the south. check pictures of Medina before it was bulldozed and comprehend. Once you have come to terms i will like to hear your response
[QUOTE]
Also, to you as my brother in Islam, it would be more beneficial to the ummah if you ask for Hidayah for others rather than asking for Allah's wrath on other muslims just because their line of thinking does not align with yours. We all need hidayah, and not one of us could claim to be a perfect follower of the Deen. Even Ibrahim (a.s.) always asked Allah for guidance, and to be able to die a believer. Lets fear our own actions, and ask for our own guidance lest we end up going further away from the straight path of mercy.
[/QUOTE]
Nope, the group known as Najdis, one of the hallmarks of which is to presume Muslims as mushriks are outside the fold of Mercy of the Sunnah. Perhaps there is mercy for them, i do not comment on that in the absolute sense but The Prophet of Mercy did not pray for them. and when you count up the allegations of this group in what their positions actually mean, in their true sense, you will realize whom exactly is included in their fatwa
I count those who regard Muslims as Mushriks among this cursed group, so My decision to not pray for them in that way was intentional and not an oversight
Re: ISIS Destroys Tomb of Prophet Of Jonah (Younus)
AsSalaamo Alaikum,
I can understand your concern about hijacking of the religion; indeed that is a worrysome trend. But, you can counter the effort of those attempting to hijack it by presenting the correct image and making yourself available, and starting programs even at local level, who knows you may inspire others to do it at a bigger scale. Every little bit counts.
I see it as a surprise that you seem to forget the hadith from Sahih Bukhari:
By the same token, since you own up to building of, and maintaining of shrines, do you ever wonder if you would be held accountable for those people from among the population who go to these shrines and commit unislamic acts under the guise of getting barakah? Just a yes, or no answer would suffice.
Ahlus Sunnah in definition is those who maintain the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.), please narrate to me for the sake of increasing my knowledge where Rasool Allah (s.a.w) or the rightly guided companions (r.a.) of Rasool Allah (s.a.w.) built shrines, and then went to them to get barakah? Authentic hadiths are usually corraborated from various sources, so it should be easy to cite for reference sake. JazakAllah Khair.
I am against destroying heritage, and places of significance, but you take it to a whole other level which I have a hard time comprehending, thus me asking you to provide precise answers.
Also, to you as my brother in Islam, it would be more beneficial to the ummah if you ask for Hidayah for others rather than asking for Allah's wrath on other muslims just because their line of thinking does not align with yours. We all need hidayah, and not one of us could claim to be a perfect follower of the Deen. Even Ibrahim (a.s.) always asked Allah for guidance, and to be able to die a believer. Lets fear our own actions, and ask for our own guidance lest we end up going further away from the straight path of mercy.
Assalamu'alaikum brother Teggy
I was poised to make the same advice about not cursing or damming people, but to ask for their guidance ... That is the Sunnah.
However, seeing that I was once on the other side of the fence ... I too found it hard to overcome the teachings that I was getting about shrines and barakah at graves being false and we were allowing ways for shirk. But I found later that there is a rich tradition of it ... Historically these have been allowed and welcomed ... The time we live in has seen a rise in a form of Protestant Islam ... We are growing up in a media onslaught fuelled by the Petrol-dollars that shows us a skewed POV ... We think that Muslims are engrossed in shirk and futile practices ... But in reality we are thinning down the Sunnah ...
Regarding the share of all murders being with Qabil ... And your statement about the share of those who do unIslamic acts being shared by those who built the shrines ... Is not a cogent argument. In order for the logic to flow is that those who built shrines in the past are getting a share of those who build shrines now ... Not a share of those who do unIslamic acts. The shrine itself is not to be blamed ... Just like the Ka'bah was not blamed for being the house of many idols ... The mazar over the holy Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and his two companions (RA) and of the future death of Isa (AS) is indeed a sign that not only was this practiced in the past, but that there is barakah at the shrines ... I mean what is barakah? Barakah is reflected benefits. If a person wears lovely perfume and we go close to him, then we share the maza of the fragrance that he has ... This is the analogy that should be used ...
Now there is a battle of opinions ... Some say for the sake of those who do unIslamic acts at graves all building of shrines should be ended ... And then there are those who negate and deny any falsehood or malpractice at graves and accuse others of being anti-grave ... I suggest a balanced line is taken ... Is there any legitimacy in the barakah of graves of pious people? I personally see that there is ... Both empirically seen and in our texts. So why do we not see those references today? It is because a systematic wiping out has been in action over the past 100 or so years of historical sites and ancient texts that were translated wrongly or deemed to be weak or fabricated. I only found this out due to my studies taking me in that direction.
I bring some reference material inshaAllah.
Re: ISIS Destroys Tomb of Prophet Of Jonah (Younus)
Building Structures over graves & Recitation of Quran on Graves.
also this …
Imam Shafi`i seeks Baraka from the Tomb of Imam Abu Hanifa
The people of Cape Town are Shafii. We say that when Imam Shafii was in Baghdad, whenever he would have a problem, he would visit the TOMB of Imam Abu Hanifah , pray two Rakahs there and ask Allah (swt) through the Baraka of Imam Abu Hanifah, and his problem would be immediately be solved. He would also make those two Rakahs according to the Hanafi Mazhab. When asked why, he replied : “In respect of the person in the Tomb (i.e. Abu Hanifah)” (ta’adduban ma’a sahib al-Qabr).
This Authentic story is narrated by the Great Shafi`i scholar Imam Ibn Hajar al-Makki in in his Book called “al-Khairat al-Hisan fi manaqib al-imam Abu Hanifah al-Numan”. And also by the great Hanafi scholar Ibn Abidin Shami in the introduction of his massive work called Rad al-Muhtar.
http://www.sunnah.org/aqida/cape_town_wahabi/complete_refutation_shaykh_faiik.htm
Re: ISIS Destroys Tomb of Prophet Of Jonah (Younus)
I don't necessarily prescribe to the polemics ... But there is enough material that can be obtained to seriously demonstrate a validity of the claim that seeking Barakah from graves is not an innovation.
Re: Split: Religion vis a vis Shrine/Buildings/graves
aasaars do wajah se zaroori hote hen, aik taareekhi ehtbaar se aur yahee wajah hai quran pehle guzre huwe achhe bure logoon ki taraf hamari tawajo dilaata hai taa keh ham sabaq seekhen. aur doosri aqeedat ko zinda rakhna main yeh bahot hi aham kirdaar adaa karte hen. jin qowmun ke aasaar baaqi na rahen un ki aqeedaten bhi khamosh ho jaati hen.
Rahee baat ladayee ki is wajah se keh deen se anjaan log asaar ki mojoodagi ki wajah se ghalat aqeedun ka shikaar ho jaate hen to yeh ulemaa ki aur ummat ki apne kaam se pehloo tehee ki wajah se hai. kia ham apni hamaaqatun ki wajah se apne haathun apne aasaar ko tabah kar den kyunkeh ham log nakaara hen? jurm ko khatam karne ki koshish karni chahiye na ke jurm ka shikaar hone waalun ko. agar koi qabar parasti ka shikaar hai to us ko samjhaa bujhaa kar aqalmand banane main madad karen na keh us par laan taan karen. aik shakh jab samajhdaar ho jaaye ga khud hi ghalat khayalaato nazriyaat se baaz aa jaaye ga.
hamaari soch kuch ulti kar di gayee hai jis ki wajah se ham log mujram aur us ke jurm par tawajo dene ke bajaaye jurm ka shikaar hone waalun ko kosna shuroo kar dete hen. is soch ko thoda badalne ki zaroorat hai.
yeh kahan ki aqalmandi hai keh agar koi chor hamaare ghar main ghus aaye to ham apne ghar hi ko tod phor ke rakh den?
Re: ISIS Destroys Tomb of Prophet Of Jonah (Younus)
Wa Alaikum Salam I nor Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah can counter the trend till its appointed time. The only hope is that the learning on the ground in remote areas continues in the traditional manner. Or Isa Alaihis Salam comes and is Buried where he tastes death (He will be at a place of choice :) )
No Some scholars have stipulated conditions such as stay so many feet away from Graves, act respectfully, and so on. Others i suspect have gone with the narrations and allowed the practices. This is general Shariat knowledge which is the same as knowledge in other areas of life. For example the group which heckles women does not invalidate the standing outside of the group which puts their eyes down. He who worships an Idol does not invalidate worship (worshiping of Allah).
The order/Sunnah to visit Graves was placed by The Messenger of Allah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam, and maintained by The scholars of Islam. So We go forward in this with the Blessing (Barakat) from Allah Ta'ala. We in this group includes Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala as The One from whose mercy Barakat is received at such sites
Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah believe the verse of those who wronged themselves to go to the Prophet in order to gain the forgiveness of Allah still applies!
I'll pass on educating you right now. However you are saying a lot from your own self so you must be well educated on the subject and aware of the Narrations, reports and Ayats. Also its evident that you favor the approach of those who do not appreciate resting places of Anbiya and Awliya so it may be that i am feeding your nafs, which is a wasted exercise. Of course the people who are doing this and their supporters will have their reasons, However it must must be understood that this is not the same understanding of Muslims of yesteryear. Such changes are hallmarks of a changed religion, meaning one of them is not Islam. Does the weight of yesterdays understanding carry any weight with you? This is the first question in learning, as it will answer what you intend to learn.
Dude we built Mazaars from the east to the west from the north to the south. check pictures of Medina before it was bulldozed and comprehend. Once you have come to terms i will like to hear your response
Nope, the group known as Najdis, one of the hallmarks of which is to presume Muslims as mushriks are outside the fold of Mercy of the Sunnah. Perhaps there is mercy for them, i do not comment on that in the absolute sense but The Prophet of Mercy did not pray for them. and when you count up the allegations of this group in what their positions actually mean, in their true sense, you will realize whom exactly is included in their fatwa
I count those who regard Muslims as Mushriks among this cursed group, so My decision to not pray for them in that way was intentional and not an oversight
I asked specific questions, requiring specific answer, and I'll wait for them. Thank you. Hadiths should be easy to find to authenticate what you said, and if it's from Sunnah and the way of Ahlus-Sunnah (keepers of the sunnah), then I assure you there will be numerous accounts from various sahaba (r.a) confirming it. Please do the due diligence and provide that, so we can move on.
Re: ISIS Destroys Tomb of Prophet Of Jonah (Younus)
Assalamu'alaikum brother Teggy
I was poised to make the same advice about not cursing or damming people, but to ask for their guidance ... That is the Sunnah.
However, seeing that I was once on the other side of the fence ... I too found it hard to overcome the teachings that I was getting about shrines and barakah at graves being false and we were allowing ways for shirk. But I found later that there is a rich tradition of it ... Historically these have been allowed and welcomed ... The time we live in has seen a rise in a form of Protestant Islam ... We are growing up in a media onslaught fuelled by the Petrol-dollars that shows us a skewed POV ... We think that Muslims are engrossed in shirk and futile practices ... But in reality we are thinning down the Sunnah ...
Regarding the share of all murders being with Qabil ... And your statement about the share of those who do unIslamic acts being shared by those who built the shrines ... Is not a cogent argument. In order for the logic to flow is that those who built shrines in the past are getting a share of those who build shrines now ... Not a share of those who do unIslamic acts. The shrine itself is not to be blamed ... Just like the Ka'bah was not blamed for being the house of many idols ... The mazar over the holy Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and his two companions (RA) and of the future death of Isa (AS) is indeed a sign that not only was this practiced in the past, but that there is barakah at the shrines ... I mean what is barakah? Barakah is reflected benefits. If a person wears lovely perfume and we go close to him, then we share the maza of the fragrance that he has ... This is the analogy that should be used ...
Now there is a battle of opinions ... Some say for the sake of those who do unIslamic acts at graves all building of shrines should be ended ... And then there are those who negate and deny any falsehood or malpractice at graves and accuse others of being anti-grave ... I suggest a balanced line is taken ... Is there any legitimacy in the barakah of graves of pious people? I personally see that there is ... Both empirically seen and in our texts. So why do we not see those references today? It is because a systematic wiping out has been in action over the past 100 or so years of historical sites and ancient texts that were translated wrongly or deemed to be weak or fabricated. I only found this out due to my studies taking me in that direction.
I bring some reference material inshaAllah.
Walaikum salaam wa rehmatullah brother Psyah,
It is always a refreshing experience to hear your point of view, because it carries scholarly weight to it. I can appreciate your balanced approach to things. I understand that there are certain occassions where visiting the graves is permitted, for specific reason and those are found from known ahadith. Specifically speaking to do duaa for the deceased and to ask for their forgiveness, to visit the graveyard to ponder over self because that will one day be our destination as well, but what I do not know of, and therefore have trouble coming to terms with is that making graves/shrines a place of worship because it is not found in the sunnah of Rasool Allah (s.a.w) or in the practice of Sahaba (r.a.). The famous hadith highlights this incident beautifully, I'll paraphrase: During drought after the life of Rasool Allah (s.a.w.), Umar (r.a.) went to Abbas (r.a.) and told him that when Rasool Allah (s.a.w) was alive, they would all ask him to make duaa to Allah. But since has has passed away, they hope that Rasool Allah (s.a.w.)'s uncle could make the duaa for rain instead. So, if the barakah was to be had from visiting the grave, Umar (r.a.) would have done so. He is one of the most revered authority on our deen after Rasool Allah (s.a.w) from among the companions (may Allah be pleased with them all).
The point of argument can be made: If it was something that was truly beneficial, those who were drenched in Tauheed and blessed with a teacher like Rasool Allah (s.a.w.) would have practiced it, and set it forth as a practice for other generations to follow. I would be delighted to learn of any sources that can trace it back to Rasool Allah (s.a.w.) or the Sahaba (r.a.), and would thank whoever could provide it. Rasool Allah (s.a.w.) authenticated three generations whose practice can be certain to be on Tauheed, and those were the first three generations, and the rest may be blessed because Islam is carried through them to us. Of those later generations are the four Imam whose schools of thought most of us follow today; may Allah be pleased with them.
I certainly appreciate the rich heritage that has deep roots, and practice of the most respected scholars and Imams who served Islam to the best of their abilities. But when I want to look for validity of something, my first sources are Quran and Sunnah, Hadiths, and then if I find something that does not contradict them, I have an easier time settling on it. That's just me, and I acknowledge that I have a long way to go before attaining even a minimum level understanding. Even the imams have categorically stated that if you find a hadith, go with that instead. What we need to understand is that each Imam may not have had a complete collection of Hadiths at his disposal, so they made the best judgement based on circumstances and what they had available to them; thus the disclaimer that each mentioned. It is easy for us to look at all the ahadiths that are known today because those before us worked effortlessly to put it all together for us. We can learn from it, and use the fatwas as references but the source should remain Quran and Sunnah.
My point of view is not, or at least I hope, the result of mass media Petro-Dollar sponsored Islam that is broadcast. I seek refuge in Allah from becoming victim to anything that is not Islam.
Here are some hadiths that I am sure you are familiar with, that I feel support what I have said.
[quote]
Abu Marthad Kannaz bin Husain (May Allah be pleased with him) said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam) saying: "Do not offer Salat (prayer) facing the graves and do not sit on them.''
[Muslim].
[/quote]
[quote]
Aa'ishah and 'Abd-Allaah ibn 'Abbaas said: "When (death) approached the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), he started to cover his face with a cloak of his. When he became distressed he lifted it from his face and said, "May Allaah curse the Jews and the Christians, for they have taken the graves of their Prophets as places of worship." [The narrator said:] he was warning against doing what they did." (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 425; Muslim, 531).
[/quote]
I can fully understand your concern that some authentic text have been made to vanish by nefarious people, but isn't it better to take the side of caution rather than to indulge in something that may or may not have a report validating it? We are each accountable with how we acted based on what we knew, and the information that was available to us. When I act on something, and use the reason that actual evidence has probably been destroyed decades before my birth, I am taking a fat chance on something that may or may not be true.
JazakAllah Khair for your response though brother. I too seek a balanced approach and hope that we can all unite as an ummah and set aside differences that will not become determining factors in our akhirah. While we argue over things that divide us, those who have mischief in their hearts for Muslims take full advantage of the divide and accelerate the tensions even more. We ought to treat each other as parts of one body; when one errs the other guides it in place gently, and when one hurts the others all feel the pain. It's very unbecoming of a muslim to take the option to call for Wrath of Allah on other muslims on the account of their thinking being different. We all need guidance to Seerat-e-Mustaqeem.
May Allah save us all even from the sight of An-Nar and the horrors of the day of reckoning. Ameen.
Re: Split: Religion vis a vis Shrine/Buildings/graves
Dear respected brother Teggy ... jazakAllahukhair for the response, and Ameen to the du'a ... I see a lot of myself in the concern of your words above and for that reason I will give an answer, but not one that deals with the subject matter, yet ...
In our search for material we will always reinforce our biases if we take a stance on a matter first and then search out ahadith to support it ... Our searches whether from books or from the internet will be directed - focused on the material we want to find. Part of the reason that I moved away from where I was, was because I found myself self-limiting. I was not interested in learning, but I thought I was. One of the problems in presenting hadith is how they are presented by the one who chooses to provide them as evidence and how they are treated by the opposite. More recently in my attempts for studying historical Christianity I have learnt critical reading. And that asks the question - why is this statement being made? What was the dynamic at the time that created this statement? Something we often fail to ask ourselves when providing hadith references. Of course we are not scholars, but when we go down the route of searching for our own evidences in the hadith - then we ought to at least pretend to have done a thorough job.
It will be possible by and large to provide hadith to support both sides of the argument, but the question is context, time, meaning and reflection ... each of the references have this ... also to our aid we can use logic and deductive reasoning properly. For example, earlier you correctly stated the link between the first murder and subsequent ones ... but the method of applying in the case building shrines and the unIslamic happenings at shrines did not follow. We should be careful of criticising previous generations - the scholars provide hadith that Muslims will point fingers at previous generations. The correct logic would be the share of reward for subsequent shrine buildings will be given to the first shrine builder. Building a structure in itself is not a blameworthy act. And we will leave it there or else we will go in to the conversation detail that I want to avoid ...
Another point about scholarly discourse ... Permit me to quote from your post above ...
"So, if the barakah was to be had from visiting the grave, Umar (r.a.) would have done so."
In order to make such a statement we would need to confirm positively that Umar (RA) condemned it (visit the grave for barakah) and did not do so, the mere absence is not evidence. To even make a statement like that we would have honestly had to have searched all the scripture finding evidences and then concluding "there was no evidence that ..." ... But even then the absence of an act is not the negation of it - that is a rule in logic. In other words when we make statements like "would have done so" then we are on flimsy ground in the scholarly/critical sense, as there may have been other reasons why certain things were or were not done. For example, the desire of RasoolAllah (SAW) to extend the Ka'bah to its original boundaries, was seen as one follower (RA) as something to fulfill, but he was criticised on that basis "RasoolAllah (SAW) would have done so, but didn't" and now it is understood why it was not done then, so grounds of doing it now are valid, however, because of that fitnah that happened earlier no one is going to do it.
Rather in that instance - one could seek out the purpose of why Sayyiduna Umar (RA) requested from Sayyidah A'isha (RA) to be buried next to RasoolAllah (SAW), if not for barakah - And if that possibility is there then making such a closed and definite statement is not scholarly prudent.
Now looking at the ahadith that you have posted ...
They are indeed related and relevant hadith to the subject matter, but they provide a one-sided view. The correct way to provide a scholarly analysis is to pick up the arguments both sides use and their references and even if that is not immediately obvious or accessible (because we know there has been systematic hadith hiding) we can resort to other means of analysis. For example the real life examples and historical examples we find. They knew about the same ahadith we know about, probably better than us - so why did they do certain things?
The part that you have highlighted in blue corresponds with the second hadith "have taken graves of their Prophets as places of worship" ... So the issue is performing Salat facing the qabr and sitting on the qabr. At this moment in time - we should only deal with these two subjects and any other matter should not be falsely connected to these ahadith, without further evidence to support it. So the matter of barakah is not being dealt with from these two ahadith. It would be a fallacy to conclude the prohibition of seeking barakah at graves of prophets based on these provided ahadith. Furthermore, people do not go to masajid to seek our barakah, unless the location of the masjid is specifically noted for having such a purpose.
So where I am getting to here is - that to be scholarly we need to avoid using general references as refutations for specifics, or else we restrict interpretation wrongly and create problems for ourselves. Much of the reasons why there is hadith hiding taking places is because of restrictive interpretation - which has led to scholars concluding certain ahadith must be abrogated or false because of perceived contradictions, but the fact may well be that their own minds did not allow the interpretations to be made widely enough in the first place. It is essential therefore to learn critical thinking, dialectic, logic - the art of reasoning to even begin analysing hadith.
From the hadith you provided we need to do more searching ... We need to ask the following questions ...
a) What was the motivation behind these statements? - look at seerah and timing of hadith corresponding to major events in seerah.
b) What were the Christians and Jews doing at their graves of Prophets? We cannot assume - we need to find out.
b1) We can start by looking at contemporary sources or historical discourse over such practices ...
b2) Have they subsequently changed their practice after the timing of the hadith? - For example in the Qur'an it stated that Jews had taken others as children of God ... these are denied by modern Jews, but we need to look at what was happened then to get to the truth.
c) To bounce our semi-conclusions against other ideas that seem to be in tensions with these to refine our understandings.
d) Find an understanding that balances between all the references that creates most consistency.
If we are to trust our scripture we should be trying not compromise any of it ... this means that we should second guess our interpretations before second guessing the reference itself.
If we can demonstrate these things then perhaps our main conversation does not even need to happen ...
Re: Split: Religion vis a vis Shrine/Buildings/graves
oh…on of my posts has been split into a new thread…
Disclaimer:
it’s not a thread created by me so i’m staying out of this. 
Re: Split: Religion vis a vis Shrine/Buildings/graves
Well, I tried to read long posts with no real breaks to be able to read and keep flow of discussion.
I think what I am getting is that there are opposite views if shrines should b made for certain religious reasons or not.
When one sees the "tooaane bad-tameezi" on these shrines very much supported by certain group of people, one wonders is this really the purpose these shrines?
At least some kind of middle ground needs to be sought IMHO.
Re: Split: Religion vis a vis Shrine/Buildings/graves
I've visited the larger Kasur shrines for photography purposes. I have so many people in photographs doing Sajdas on graves it's unbelievable (I can post them here if you like). I would love to preserve shrines for archaeological reasons but beyond that these shrines are just a scam to take money from the illiterate.
Re: Split: Religion vis a vis Shrine/Buildings/graves
To whoever wishes … Please listen to each point carefully.
Re: Split: Religion vis a vis Shrine/Buildings/graves
I wrote this at sehri time as soon as Teggy had replied
I asked specific questions, requiring specific answer, and I'll wait for them. Thank you. Hadiths should be easy to find to authenticate what you said, and if it's from Sunnah and the way of Ahlus-Sunnah (keepers of the sunnah), then I assure you there will be numerous accounts from various sahaba (r.a) confirming it. Please do the due diligence and provide that, so we can move on.
erm I am not providing a service here. I will highlight Hadiths where they are required. They are not required here, yet
for example its not even clear what exactly is troubling you. I know you have mentioned some things you would like clarified but any view has more to it then that. Any issue has more to it then what we think we need to learn about and clarify.
That's the Beauty about what we do not know, we do not know what we do not know about it. I like to contemplate on issues
In your reply to Psyah you have made statements which are to be questioned
1. "making graves/shrines a place of worship" - If this was true then the matter would be finished and dealt with. However you are making this up from your own (mis)understanding.
2. "*But since has has passed away, *" - This is actually not part of the hadith, and I have seen people contest this specific interpretation.
The hadith here is using the Acceptance of RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam in the court of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala. It is using a blood relative, meaning RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam is being used here. This point is not necessarily needed to be said for this discussion but its important never the less
3."if you find a hadith, go with that instead" - Meaning you who is capable of making a ruling, not you as in us as individuals. We only have fiqh because we are incapable
This is all a bit off topic.
Re: Split: Religion vis a vis Shrine/Buildings/graves
Generally, visiting graves is mustahab (recommended) for men and permissible for women. Visiting the graves of saintly people, parents and close relatives is considered mandoob (desirable). It is permissible and possible for women to visit graves as long as they do not cry out, wail, behave hysterically and respect graves too much, which can cause mischief. This is because the Prophet advised a woman who was wailing at her child’s grave to endure; yet he did not forbid her to visit the grave. (Bukhari, Janaiz, 2, Ahkam II; Muslim, Janaiz, 15). In addition, it is narrated that Hazrat Aisha visited her brother’s, Abdurrahman b. Abi Bakr, grave. (Tirmidhi, Janaiz, 61).
Re: Split: Religion vis a vis Shrine/Buildings/graves
I do not understand the word ''tooaane'' that diwana used
I have been to two covered Graves (Mazaars), One was in a remote location and a person and a site i kinda sought out through a little calculated research to visit. Well i intended to visit Peer Sahibs Living Son, and Peer Sahib (passed on) had the similar credentials as His Son
When i got there it was quiet. there was only the people that went with me there. Standing besides the Grave felt overwhelming, the over whelm was from a sense of Quwat (power) around one of the Graves.
Later in the day i saw a local woman at the shrine. I saw her walking out from her visit to the Shrine.
She was between looking backwards and forwards, with a distinct desperation about what she wanted, with hands alternating between dua position and closed like the indian namaste position. Talking away even as she left. She had not a shred of doubt about what she was doing, she was totally Believing.
Well according to at least the fatwa of 1 imam, probably more, she shouldn't have even been there. Women are barred from visiting Mazaars with the exception being for older women who can visit. what constitutes older women!
I have nothing against her desperation for whatever she wanted, no allegations
Nothing against her Istigatha (she was atleast 8-10meters away from the grave)
Nothing against her hand (dua) type gestures
I was impressed by her belief, she looked as if she didn't doubt the Passed away Peer was able to help her. She was removing reasons for Him not to
The other site I have been to is much more local to where i live in Pakistan, a popular and busy place. It has a bustling market, car park, traffic control employees, many wudu cubicles, some faqeers playing some type of music. The crowd here is very diverse from poor pakistanis, ordinary pakistanis, rich pakistanis and those living abroad. It was a place of fitnah because some of the women were attractive, most people there looked moderate and some outright liberal.The people were at peace however, a contentment could be felt there.
All the men kissed the gravestone as they came in, at least whilst I was there. I never felt anything at his site in terms of spiritual with the local Awliya resting there
I made a mistake here, because the person I went with kissed the Grave stone, and on our way home I told him that action had been given ''haram'' status. What i should have said is that it has been given makruh status and that too by only the imam whose opinion has been most strongly related to me.
The music played at the site is a contentious issue, however it has support from Imams and groups so nothing major can be said
The attractive women i referred to were just a sample of ordinary pakistanis, living and dressing like ordinary well off or foreign based pakistanis do.
so i came away from there with basically nothing to forbid, that didn't stop me trying but when i opened my mouth i made a mistake!
Re: Split: Religion vis a vis Shrine/Buildings/graves
Well, I tried to read long posts with no real breaks to be able to read and keep flow of discussion.
I think what I am getting is that there are opposite views if shrines should b made for certain religious reasons or not.
When one sees the "tooaane bad-tameezi" on these shrines very much supported by certain group of people, one wonders is this really the purpose these shrines?
At least some kind of middle ground needs to be sought IMHO.
I've visited the larger Kasur shrines for photography purposes. I have so many people in photographs doing Sajdas on graves it's unbelievable (I can post them here if you like). I would love to preserve shrines for archaeological reasons but beyond that these shrines are just a scam to take money from the illiterate.
Ok lets have it. Please give more details about what you are talking about here
Lets deal with the issue rather then just mentioning it
Re: Split: Religion vis a vis Shrine/Buildings/graves
Ok lets have it. Please give more details about what you are talking about here
Lets deal with the issue rather then just mentioning it
People were prostrating in front of the graves. People were walking away from the graves backwards so their backs weren't facing the grave. People were tying knots around the graves. I saw the difference between shrines maintained by the awkaf committee and those which weren't. The awkaf committee ones didn't have much objectional behaviour.
There are no living aalims around in any of the shrines and that's why I would call it a scam. There is a promise of wishes coming true from a dead man who can neither guide nor tutor.
I was actually feeling sorry for the poor saints the shrines were based on. Their kalam and message were nonexistent for the people visiting them and I had to pray surah fatiha for their magfirat l because no one seemed interested in that either.