Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

[Med911]

Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

I raised a legitimate questions. I was not taking cheap shots by making fun of leaders' name.

My question to you would any country in the world in India's position trust Pakistan to have a free border?

Let us start with Mr. Vajpayee, yes he wished for a single currency like EU, but what did Pakistan do ? Welcomed him on one hand and sent troops into Kargil. It lets people who organize Punjabi (Pakistani) terrorist groups and send them to India to blow up ordinary people (Bombay) roam freely and collect money for more such activities. Look at duplicity of Pakistan, leave alone to India, look at the games it plays with Afghan. It even back stabbed US after 9/11. So, tell me how could you equate India/Pakistan to other relationships you mentioned.

India's poverty is nothing to with the issue at hand. India can be poor, but it has every right to safe guard itself from outside danger. The train has left, the train which would make trade and other concessions to Pakistan to improve relationships has left. In this very pages, I have written about the need for India good relationship with Pakistan, that was before Kargil, before Bombay, before the news leaks about of how US was being played by Pakistan (both US and India are my home land). Now, Pakistan have to do lot more to prove it's sincerity.

Sorry for the rant....but.. you really ticked me off.

Im going to ignore your question as just another provocation from an Indian with a chip on his shoulder. If you feel you were betrayed, then so do Pakistanis feel betrayed by Indians.
And if their is mistrust on your side of the border, there is just as much mistrust on our side.

Time to get over it.

[delind]

Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

Yup. High time

[KatDaddy]

Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

Im going to ignore your question as just another provocation from an Indian with a chip on his shoulder. If you feel you were betrayed, then so do Pakistanis feel betrayed by Indians. And if their is mistrust on your side of the border, there is just as much mistrust on our side.

Time to get over it.

Move on....you can say that when it suits you...Kargil and 26/11 are too fresh to forget...may be if Pakistan keep the lid on terrorism against India for another 10 years.. yes we can.

Agian by ignoring my question and trying understand the reason for the mistrust, you are taking the familian posture, that is to bury your head in the sand. Unless, you are ask honest questions you are not going to find permanent solution (applicable to both sides).

[Sarsaparilla]

Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

Most Pakistanis consider themselves much closer to Chinese than to either Indians or Iranians and I wonder how many words do urdu and chinese share (like zero).

How many Pakistanis look Chinese? Not one in million. So friendship between two countries does not depend on the past genetic links or the shared language.

[Med911]

Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

Move on....you can say that when it suits you...Kargil and 26/11 are too fresh to forget...may be if Pakistan keep the lid on terrorism against India for another 10 years.. yes we can.Agian by ignoring my question and trying understand the reason for the mistrust, you are taking the familian posture, that is to bury your head in the sand. Unless, you are ask honest questions you are not going to find permanent solution (applicable to both sides).

Are u trying to get into a flame war? We can hurl as many accusations at you as you can at us. If u have u have ur Kargil, we have 60 plus years of Indian betryal to contend with.You arent doing us any favors here, we arent begging u for friendship. Peace id a two way street.If you want to choose conflict, then thats up to u. Otherwise, accept peace. If u cant, then get out of the way.There is nothing to.discuss as it wont resolve anything, its only going to start an argument. Suffice it to say there is enough poison on both sides. Time to move on.

[mo293]

Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

Most Pakistanis consider themselves much closer to Chinese .

Yeas sure pal what ever they teach you in Indian schools...

[KatDaddy]

Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

Are u trying to get into a flame war? We can hurl as many accusations at you as you can at us. If u have u have ur Kargil, we have 60 plus years of Indian betryal to contend with.You arent doing us any favors here, we arent begging u for friendship. Peace id a two way street.If you want to choose conflict, then thats up to u. Otherwise, accept peace. If u cant, then get out of the way.There is nothing to.discuss as it wont resolve anything, its only going to start an argument. Suffice it to say there is enough poison on both sides. Time to move on.

I am sorry say it does not work just like that. You back stab and try to bleed us to death for 60 odd years and now you say you offer peace and asking to throw open the borders (incidently that is what started this discussion).

Don't mistake me, I want India and Pakistan to have borders like Europe. But, for that to happen we have to live like France and Germany did from 1950s to 1990s. (for decades as good neighbor) It means, not sending of terrorists across border, not letting people responsible for planning attack on India roam in your streets and collect money for more such attaks and not harboring Indian gangsters responsible for lives of 100s of lives etc for few decades. Let us get that done then peace will come automatically.

[Salma88khan]

Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

@yazdi

I don't think the number matters.. What muslims need is to increase their intellectual/economic contribution which can only be done with increased education and hard work. Already there are more than 1.5 billion muslims in the world with highest population growth due to high birth rate, with a very little intellectual, scientific, economic contribution..

I think we should give up the idea of sticking together to sub due other communities.. and think seriously about co existing.. and improving our own situation. This conquering the world global agenda has harmed muslim community more than anything else..

I agree with you. The concept of Umma did not took place in history as most of Islamic history is full of fighting of Muslims not only amongst fellow Muslims but within the family and clans. In the entire recorded history of mankind there is no concept of universal brotherhood or unification. Groups syndicate to serves their own (political, social or economical) intrests and not on the basis of religion.
The important point here is lack of education amongst Muslim and that is the main reason fr our backwardness and poverty. I respect Mr. Hassan Nisar, who claims that, ignorance creates poverty and poverty creates more ignorance. The creation of Pakistan was based on religion but in spite of being religious we turned fanatics. Israel too was created on the same ground, but today by the virtue of their knowledge and scientific studies they are ruling the entire world. We keep on blaming others for Pakistan’s condition but never retrospect or compare. Our learning starts and ends with the Dos and Don’ts in Islam. The highest number of Nobel prize winners are Jews followed by Christians. The only Pakistani who received Noble prize was Abdus Salam (for Physics in 1979) but we ignore him because he was Ahmadi.

[kchughtai]

Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

Does Islam need a political unit to 'unite' all muslims, to create brotherhood between them. I think, religion transcends political, racial and linguistic boundaries. muslims might not be stronger as a political unit while they hold other factors above religious brotherhood. btw, muslims have been longing for centrality known to us as 'khilafat' and that is perhaps answer to the brotherhood we dream of.

[Med911]

Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

I am sorry say it does not work just like that. You back stab and try to bleed us to death for 60 odd years and now you say you offer peace and asking to throw open the borders (incidently that is what started this discussion).

Don't mistake me, I want India and Pakistan to have borders like Europe. But, for that to happen we have to live like France and Germany did from 1950s to 1990s. (for decades as good neighbor) It means, not sending of terrorists across border, not letting people responsible for planning attack on India roam in your streets and collect money for more such attaks and not harboring Indian gangsters responsible for lives of 100s of lives etc for few decades. Let us get that done then peace will come automatically.

From our prespective, its YOU who backstab and try to bleed us for 60 odd years.

Peace is mutual, not a gift we are asking you to generously bestow on us. Your not doing us any favors.

I personally dont care whether you throw open the borders. Im not visiting India any time soon. And I doubt Pakistanis are falling over themselves trying to get into India... I mean what exactly do you think we would want from you?

As far as terrorists go. I think India would do itself a favor by not occupying a part of Kashmir. My stance is simple, we should control extremists on Pak side and eliminate if need be, and same on your side, but utimately, peace for India and peace for the region means an end to occupation of Kashmir on Indias part. Give Peace to the Kashmris and you will create the ground work for a lasting peace in line with Europe. There is no justification for your countries occupation of Kashmir and it must end, or the situation must be remedied in a way that all sides find acceptable.

Now like I. said before, you feel betrayed, I dont care really, im not here to coddle you, or indulge your self righteous rants on how you were hurt... We all feel the same way, some how, we manage to forgive your transgressions and precieved slights, im sure you can find a way to do the same.
You feel you have a stronger case for being resentful, we dont agree. You feel slighted and somehow feel entitled to be heard, I dont agree.
Case closed.

[delind]

Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

Well both Indians and Pakistanis feel betrayed for some reason. Am sure one would be justified more than the other. The point is not to look at the past but move forward as this mistrust and hidden aggression is not helping any side. For India to further its ambition to be a truly global power, it has to I personally feel should act like an elder brother and take Pakistan along as it it does not want an unnecessary irritant in its neighborhood. And from the Pakistani side, without going into merits of their right on Kashmir, i.e. it can certainly claim to have a right on it but the obsession towards Kashmir has gradually turned the life of normal people living in the country so unsafe and disillusioned. It has cost the country both socially and economically. If the country is happy, then the Kashmiris themselves would want to go to the other side of the border. At the present moment though it is hard to think so. The Pakistanis may think that they are giving moral support to people like Masood Azhar, Hafis Sayeed, Dawood etc, but they should realise that these people are the ones who are partially responsible for damaging the social fabric of the country. A serpent shall always remain one. The U.S is facing the same problem now that the Taliban it supported against the Russians has pointed the gun on them. The Kashmir issue for now can be kept on a backburner, get the domestic house in order and then can certainly be raised in the national agenda. Being an Indian personally, I would want peace and harmony amongst the people and whatever experience I have had meeting Pakistanis at various places, I feel that the desire remains the same from the other side.

[Med911]

Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

@delind

Well both Indians and Pakistanis feel betrayed for some reason. Am sure one would be justified more than the other. The point is not to look at the past but move forward as this mistrust and hidden aggression is not helping any side. For India to further its ambition to be a truly global power, it has to I personally feel should act like an elder brother and take Pakistan along as it it does not want an unnecessary irritant in its neighborhood. And from the Pakistani side, without going into merits of their right on Kashmir, i.e. it can certainly claim to have a right on it but the obsession towards Kashmir has gradually turned the life of normal people living in the country so unsafe and disillusioned. It has cost the country both socially and economically. If the country is happy, then the Kashmiris themselves would want to go to the other side of the border. At the present moment though it is hard to think so. The Pakistanis may think that they are giving moral support to people like Masood Azhar, Hafis Sayeed, Dawood etc, but they should realise that these people are the ones who are partially responsible for damaging the social fabric of the country. A serpent shall always remain one. The U.S is facing the same problem now that the Taliban it supported against the Russians has pointed the gun on them. The Kashmir issue for now can be kept on a backburner, get the domestic house in order and then can certainly be raised in the national agenda. Being an Indian personally, I would want peace and harmony amongst the people and whatever experience I have had meeting Pakistanis at various places, I feel that the desire remains the same from the other side.

I agree that Pakistan cant fight on behalf of Kashmiris. However, without a resolution, I dont think there will ever be peace. Although this is a minor point, we all want a relationship of equals. If Indians object to being precieved as anything less then equal with the likes of America etc, so do we object to being seen as younger brother to India of all countries. This bura bhai.chota bhai concept is not going to fly.

[BindazChakkar]

Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

I don't thinks Indians were betrayed. Indians were and are just being cheated. Just because Pakistan thought Kashmir 'should be theirs' does not make it a genuine issue. On top of that they went about making that claim by using terrorism as the tactic.

Anyway all that is past. Pakistan has the terrorist problem now, not India (except the occasional shoot out!) and Kashmir is on the rebound with tourism and trade rebounding.

As I see it the only place that hasn't woken up to this reality is the internet theater!

[delind]

Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

@Med911

I agree that Pakistan cant fight on behalf of Kashmiris. However, without a resolution, I dont think there will ever be peace. Although this is a minor point, we all want a relationship of equals. If Indians object to being precieved as anything less then equal with the likes of America etc, so do we object to being seen as younger brother to India of all countries. This bura bhai.chota bhai concept is not going to fly.

When I talked of being an elder brother, I meant that India should be more considerate and giving towards Pakistan. I dont have a problem yaar, aap bade bhai ban jao, hum chhote ho jaate hain. And personally I dont agree with this mindset, that one can hold peace at ransom on any one issue. Agreed the Kashmir issue is very important to you, but at this point I feel that the domestic issues should be more important. Only if the house is in order, will anyone fight for others or other issues. Just see what the cost both countries are bearing right now and I dont think that i shall be wrong in saying that Pakistan is paying more socially and economically. We very well know that no solution is possible in short term, so why not focus on more imp domestic issues.