Looking at India the ratio of Hindus : Muslims = 6 i.e. there are 6 times the number of Hindus to Muslims in India. Assume the partitions did not take place if we add the total number of Muslims in the subcontinent and Hindus in the subcontinent the proportions are quite a bit different.
Now we see that the ratio Hindus : Muslims = 2 … i.e. over the whole subcontinent there are twice as many Hindus as Muslims. This is an amazing number … We now know that 32% in terms of democracy is a number that is quite influential … it is not to say that all 32% will be aligned … but for sure we are more powerful as a single unit.
In fact when we were told to stick together as a jamma’ why did we not listen to this vital advice?
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
Do we stick together in a small city of Nawabshah, let alone Karachi or Lahore or Pakistan or sub-continent?
I think if were were good, proper Muslims, then staying in united India would have benefited us. Divided in ever fighting sects, families and castes, we would be in a much worse state. The state of Muslims in India is a case in point. Even when not blaming Indian state machinery or alleging systematic discrimination, I think Muslims in India are in a poor state because of infighting and lower emphasis on importance of knowledge and learning. They have themselves to blame if they are socially and economically backwards.
Looking at India the ratio of Hindus : Muslims = 6 i.e. there are 6 times the number of Hindus to Muslims in India. Assume the partitions did not take place if we add the total number of Muslims in the subcontinent and Hindus in the subcontinent the proportions are quite a bit different.
Now we see that the ratio Hindus : Muslims = 2 ... i.e. over the whole subcontinent there are twice as many Hindus as Muslims. This is an amazing number ... We now know that 32% in terms of democracy is a number that is quite influential ... it is not to say that all 32% will be aligned ... but for sure we are more powerful as a single unit.
In fact when we were told to stick together as a jamma' why did we not listen to this vital advice?
I was talking about the same thing with my dad and of course, if you look at the numbers, no Indian government could function without Muslim input.
Frankly, Partition and the events leading up to it are not as black and white as taught in Pakistani history textbooks.
Looking at India the ratio of Hindus : Muslims = 6 i.e. there are 6 times the number of Hindus to Muslims in India. Assume the partitions did not take place if we add the total number of Muslims in the subcontinent and Hindus in the subcontinent the proportions are quite a bit different.
Now we see that the ratio Hindus : Muslims = 2 ... i.e. over the whole subcontinent there are twice as many Hindus as Muslims. This is an amazing number ... We now know that 32% in terms of democracy is a number that is quite influential ... it is not to say that all 32% will be aligned ... but for sure we are more powerful as a single unit.
In fact when we were told to stick together as a jamma' why did we not listen to this vital advice?
I don't think the number matters.. What muslims need is to increase their intellectual/economic contribution which can only be done with increased education and hard work. Already there are more than 1.5 billion muslims in the world with highest population growth due to high birth rate, with a very little intellectual, scientific, economic contribution..
I think we should give up the idea of sticking together to sub due other communities.. and think seriously about co existing.. and improving our own situation. This conquering the world global agenda has harmed muslim community more than anything else..
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
Do we stick together in a small city of Nawabshah, let alone Karachi or Lahore or Pakistan or sub-continent?
I think if were were good, proper Muslims, then staying in united India would have benefited us. Divided in ever fighting sects, families and castes, we would be in a much worse state. The state of Muslims in India is a case in point. Even when not blaming Indian state machinery or alleging systematic discrimination, I think Muslims in India **are in a poor state because of infighting and lower emphasis on importance of knowledge and learning. **Theyhave themselves to blame **if **they are socially and economically backwards.
You actually share my sentiments however I think you don't realise your own predicament ... I am trying to say that some Muslims had forsaken the Muslims who remained in India, by making the separation incomplete. Indian Muslims infighting or Pakistani Muslims claiming to be different from Bangali Muslims and Indian Muslims is for me the same problem ... if the Indian Muslims are disunited with themselves then we are too with them ...
I highlighted your blue text to show that you as well as other Muslims treat our Indian Muslims brothers as Indian first and not as Muslims first. Also the infighting is not limited to India - we are doing it in our own countries as well. We did it with the Bengalis too ... when Pakistan split away ... it was doomed to fail anyway due to the global divide and the unfairness we exercised ... My point about staying together is about being able to differ without holding resentment for one another rather harbour love.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
The concept of 'global islamic ummah' is nowhere in sight.......in near..or even distant......due to the divisions that exist today due to the modern nation state world order in today's world.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
I don't think the number matters.. What muslims need is to increase their intellectual/economic contribution which can only be done with increased education and hard work. Already there are more than 1.5 billion muslims in the world with highest population growth due to high birth rate, with a very little intellectual, scientific, economic contribution..
I think we should give up the idea of sticking together to sub due other communities.. and think seriously about co existing.. and improving our own situation. This conquering the world global agenda has harmed muslim community more than anything else..
Peace yazdi
Numbers mattered to the people who instigated the "two-state theory" based on the injustices the majority would inflict on the minority. That has been my basis for this discussion ... you have answered what we need to do ... but my question was clearly an "on hindsight" one ... would we do what we have done all over again?
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
Muslims all over are no longer united under the banner of Muslim Ummah. There is no such concept. We have become so divided in the midst of sectarian and political differences that the strength in number has become meaningless.
Number probably did not matter at the time of partition, it was the religious difference and the racial/religious prejudice that had surfaced which mattered more in defining the idea behind the partition. Had the All India Congress rightly defended the rights of the Muslims in early 1900s when the idea of a separate country for the Muslims was unimaginable and laughable, there wouldn't have been a need to start with All India Muslim League and the demands of separate electorates for Muslims.
It was a political card too played by the Muslim leaders and Jinnah but there also seemed to be no better option at that time for the Indian Muslims.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
question to opener: what is the problem you want solved? If it is the strife in Pakistan, then how does 32% strength solve something that 95% (muslims in Pakistan) are unable to solve?
But if your point is that 32% of 1.5B will be stronger than 13% of 1.2B or 95% of 180M, I agree it is possible. Not because of any religious groupingts but because the subcontinent without rifts such as border disputes can not be taken advantage of outsiders.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
How do we know that in this hypothetical situation in which Pak/Bangladesh and India stayed together, that the Muslim and Hindu population would be what it is today after partition...
Its all sort of conjecture.
And there is no reason to assume that living together, Muslims and Hindus could have cooperated. If anything, knowing Desis in general, its just as likely that what Jinnah had feared would come true, a marginalization of Muslims, which in my opinion would eventually lead to all out civil war, and a partition deferred but still imminent.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
question to opener: what is the problem you want solved? If it is the strife in Pakistan, then how does 32% strength solve something that 95% (muslims in Pakistan) are unable to solve?
But if your point is that 32% of 1.5B will be stronger than 13% of 1.2B or 95% of 180M, I agree it is possible. Not because of any religious groupingts but because the subcontinent without rifts such as border disputes can not be taken advantage of outsiders.
Yes ... this is what I was hinting on ... I also feel many Pakistanis can't see beyond other possibilities simply unable to fathom that there could have been a far better solution for Muslims instead of partition.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
How do we know that in this hypothetical situation in which Pak/Bangladesh and India stayed together, that the Muslim and Hindu population would be what it is today after partition...
Its all sort of conjecture.
And there is no reason to assume that living together, Muslims and Hindus could have cooperated. If anything, knowing Desis in general, its just as likely that what Jinnah had feared would come true, a marginalization of Muslims, which in my opinion would eventually lead to all out civil war, and a partition deferred.
I disagree ... today the media machine of both countries create anti-other polemics about each other ... and earlier the British were pinnacle in seeing to the country that they saw as being potentially powerful break up and fight amongst themselves. It is more than hypothetical ... the position I'm trying to allude to is a lesson learnt.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
^psyah bhai when in just a small city different mosques have different ways of congregational prayers, people who pray at one mosque consider going to some other mosque as totally *'haraam' *an array of 32 % population of 1.2 billion spread haphazardly b/w a whopping 63%hindu majority could have hardly made much of a difference!
Heck we have different days of celebrating Eid because of controversies b/w scholars in the same city!
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
Muslims all over are no longer united under the banner of Muslim Ummah. There is no such concept. We have become so divided in the midst of sectarian and political differences that the strength in number has become meaningless.
Number probably did not matter at the time of partition, it was the religious difference and the racial/religious prejudice that had surfaced which mattered more in defining the idea behind the partition. Had the All India Congress rightly defended the rights of the Muslims in early 1900s when the idea of a separate country for the Muslims was unimaginable and laughable, there wouldn't have been a need to start with All India Muslim League and the demands of separate electorates for Muslims.
It was a political card too played by the Muslim leaders and Jinnah but there also seemed to be no better option at that time for the Indian Muslims.
I was merely using number to demonstrate on a rational basis that we have weakened the position of Muslims in India by making "Muslim countries" and furthermore taking the decision to:
a) Break the code of Islam about being united with one another
b) Break the code of Islam about not being prejudiced and racially intolerant especially to Muslims
Led to the decision of making a country for Muslims ... and passing it off as though it was "an Islamic" thing to be doing - I feel that was wrong ... Pakistan was not made in the name of Islam if the two points a) and b) above were the justifiers for the partition. There is absolutely no Islamic value that I can think of in the formation of Pakistan and even in the fear that Muslims would be treated wrongly that purpose was not fulfilled not only did innocent people die in the migrations but also many people were left behind. On hindsight that should be enough for us to see how wrong we were ...
We say Pakistan ... but what has Pakistan been doing in the name of Justice and how Pak is it really? Is it Pak purely because it has a Muslim majority?
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
I disagree ... today the media machine of both countries create anti-other polemics about each other ... and earlier the British were pinnacle in seeing to the country that they saw as being potentially powerful break up and fight amongst themselves. It is more than hypothetical ... the position I'm trying to allude to is a lesson learnt.
It is also a fact, that minorities in each countries are marginalized to some extent, even to this day. India perhaps less so, but figures on the Muslims of India arent exactly confidence boosting either. And the periodic mass riots point to the persistence of these deep fissures between the Muslims and Hindus.
There are real and inherent differences among the two communities, media or not. These go back centuries.
Now if the same marginalization occurred within the one unit, and Muslims had the capacity to fight back, its would be a complete mess.
I believe there were many many mistakes made in partition. But in principle, I don't think it was inherently wrong. Sometimes, people are simply better off as neighbors then as room mates.
As Jinnah had said, we can be closer by separating. An oxymoron yes, but still a factual truth I think.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
^psyah bhai when in just a small city different mosques have different ways of congregational prayers, people who pray at one mosque consider going to some other mosque as totally *'haraam' *an array of 32 % population of 1.2 billion spread haphazardly b/w a whopping 63%hindu majority could have hardly made much of a difference!
Heck we have different days of celebrating Eid because of controversies b/w scholars in the same city!
Peace Enigmatic
Everything you are saying only shows how false we are to our own guiding principles ... those things do not justify partition. I'm taking the advice of our prophet Muhammad (SAW) that we should be unified - now this to me means "regionally unified" as well as "unified by heart" - now if what we are doing today goes against this advice then all of it is wrong ... but for sure none of it is justified not the partition and not the disunity within the ummah.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
I was merely using number to demonstrate on a rational basis that we have weakened the position of Muslims in India by making "Muslim countries" and furthermore taking the decision to:
a) Break the code of Islam about being united with one another
b) Break the code of Islam about not being prejudiced and racially intolerant especially to Muslims
Led to the decision of making a country for Muslims ... and passing it off as though it was "an Islamic" thing to be doing - I feel that was wrong ... Pakistan was not made in the name of Islam if the two points a) and b) above were the justifiers for the partition. There is absolutely no Islamic value that I can think of in the formation of Pakistan and even in the fear that Muslims would be treated wrongly that purpose was not fulfilled not only did innocent people die in the migrations but also many people were left behind. On hindsight that should be enough for us to see how wrong we were ...
We say Pakistan ... but what has Pakistan been doing in the name of Justice and how Pak is it really? Is it Pak purely because it has a Muslim majority?
The weakness I think came out of the manner in which partition occurred. Had it been amicable, had their not been mass genocide and forced displacement, if Kashmir had been resolved peaceful, I think the situation could have been different. If we are to oppose partition, it would be for these reasons. The principle as I said is yet sound, but if in practical terms we couldnt have accomplished it without such mass misery, then it was not worth it.
Partition was not meant to be a racist and xenophobic endeavor, as Jinnah was not any of these things. However, it did become that, and that will be the eternal tragedy.