Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

[BindazChakkar]

Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

quote from Jinnah : "...and it is a dream that the Hindus and Muslims can ever evolve a common nationality,"...

He makes several valid observations preceding and succeeding this statement but this statement itself has obviously been proved incorrect by time. Actually in two respects: 1) Hindus and Muslims have indeed evolved a common nationality - except for occasional conflicts they both proudly proclaim their Indianness and 2) It is the Pakistani state that was formed to prevent the issue of Muslims being in minority that has actually not been able to evolve a common nationality.

no disrespect but he was a man too

[KatDaddy]

Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

I wonder was there ever a period Muslims were united? My history is weak on this subject. Was there ever a singel strong Caliph that rules Islamic empire from Spain to India? I know Ottamons where strong for a brief period of time holding contigueous terrirtory. There existed an Caliphaite in Damascus and later based in Baghdad (??), but was there every a united Islamic Kingdom? Just a curious question?

[KatDaddy]

Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

Why do you think, you need to lead them? Isn't that kind of chavunist attitude?

[KatDaddy]

Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

@Med911

I think what Pak One meant was that we shouldnt undermine the basis of Pakistan. It became a question of whether to break up Pakistan because he assumed that is what was implied. The problem is that there are simply those who never considered themselves Indian, even before partition, and there are many Pashtuns and others who feel this way.

Bottom line for me is, whats done is done. Partition, the two nation concept was not wrong. It was with good intention, but was done in a haphazard and derelict manner. And there is no reason to believe that had it not happened, that it wouldnt have happened later, or that everything would have turned out ok. If anything, the nature of Desis in general tells me coexistence would have been fraught with all sorts of problems. At the end of the day, better for there to be two nations, each repecting the other. I would not be opposed to something akin to the European Union. For if its one thing the EU has taught us, you dont have to be one country to live in peace.

Do you think, India would be interested in an arrangement like EU where Pakistanis will be able to travel and work in India freely? You must be joking.

[lakkis25]

Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

@pak-one

^ Also, I should add: There is nothing wrong with wanting to be with "your own people." I mean I actually believe in the concept of Pakistan, however if most Pakistanis want to join up with India, then we have no choice but to reestablish the natural border at Indus.

For all the hatred of Afghans on this board, how shameful is it to read about the creation of Pakistan to be discussed and attempts made to discredit it. Afghanis, despite comprising of many different ethnic groups, along with perpetual warfare, no one has dared to talk about splitting up the nation. I'd rather cast my lot with those who believe in the independence of ones peoples.

Natural Border at Indus ? you will loose Karachi :-)

[lakkis25]

Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

@KatDaddy

Do you think, India would be interested in an arrangement like EU where Pakistanis will be able to travel and work in India freely? You must be joking.

Such System still exists for Nepal and Bhutan, they can travel and work in india freely,

not SURE ABOUT THIS even for sri lanka before the LTTE issue and for Bangladesh from 1971 till mujib died

[Doppleganger]

Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

@psyah

Peace All

I’ve been doing some calculations and have come to an interesting conclusion.

Today the sub-continent is generally 3 countries Bangladesh, India and Pakistan and I was looking at the figures by percentage of Muslims and Hindus.

If we believe the stats then there are about:

178M Muslims - Pakistan (95%)
3.8M Hindus - Pakistan (2%)

154.8M Muslims - India (13.4%)
9,300M Hindus - India (80.5%)

145.2M Muslims - Bangladesh (89.5%)
14.6M Hindus - Bangladesh (9%)

Looking at India the ratio of Hindus : Muslims = 6 i.e. there are 6 times the number of Hindus to Muslims in India. Assume the partitions did not take place if we add the total number of Muslims in the subcontinent and Hindus in the subcontinent the proportions are quite a bit different.

Muslims = 478/1505 = 32%
Hindus = 948.4/1505 = 63%

Now we see that the ratio Hindus : Muslims = 2 … i.e. over the whole subcontinent there are twice as many Hindus as Muslims. This is an amazing number … We now know that 32% in terms of democracy is a number that is quite influential … it is not to say that all 32% will be aligned … but for sure we are more powerful as a single unit.

In fact when we were told to stick together as a jamma’ why did we not listen to this vital advice?

So Altaf bhai was right?

[Doppleganger]

Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

@lakkis25

Such System still exists for Nepal and Bhutan, they can travel and work in india freely,

not SURE ABOUT THIS even for sri lanka before the LTTE issue and for Bangladesh from 1971 till mujib died

Nepal and especially Bhutan are satellites of India like Romania and Poland were of USSR. India doesn't like any country who asserts itself against it, as it considers itself the US of Asia if not the world yet. EU exists on general parity between its member states and as a counterweight to the US.

[CM]

Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

Yes that is why Jews who in the US are less than 1% of the population have 20% of the seats in the Senate and the House of representatives. Numbers mean nothing when it comes to wielding power.

[KatDaddy]

Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

@lakkis25

Such System still exists for Nepal and Bhutan, they can travel and work in india freely,

not SURE ABOUT THIS even for sri lanka before the LTTE issue and for Bangladesh from 1971 till mujib died

Yeap...many countries have such arrangements, based on mutual trust. Now, tell me why would India trust Pakistan...honest answer....no conspiracy theory.

[CM]

Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

Oh just as I said before. Its always good to see people questioning the reason for Pakistani's existence. So much for taking pride in ones country.

[Med911]

Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

@KatDaddy

Do you think, India would be interested in an arrangement like EU where Pakistanis will be able to travel and work in India freely? You must be joking.

Actually, former Indian PM, I believe it was VeggiePie, stated that we should have a common south Asian currency, similar to the EU...

And a Union is meant to be mutually beneficial, not for the sake of any one nation. In that sense, Indians would also be welcome into Pakistan.

People like you however, who are barely welcome onto an internet forum, would be welcome to leave the subcontinent all together...
Advice for you, a nation that can barely feed its own people (India), has no place being condescending towards others... Know your place.

[Med911]

Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

@KatDaddy

Yeap...many countries have such arrangements, based on mutual trust. Now, tell me why would India trust Pakistan...honest answer....no conspiracy theory.

You shouldnt, why should we trust you?
Honest answer...

[delind]

Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

@Med911

Actually, former Indian PM, I believe it was VeggiePie, stated that we should have a common south Asian currency, similar to the EU...

And a Union is meant to be mutually beneficial, not for the sake of any one nation. In that sense, Indians would also be welcome into Pakistan.

People like you however, who are barely welcome onto an internet forum, would be welcome to leave the subcontinent all together... Advice for you, a nation that can barely feed its own people (India), has no place being condescending towards others... Know your place.

It would be great for the long term future of the subcontinent if there is some kind of a common union created.

Going back to the thread, I feel that the partition done at the time that it was done was a correct decision. My parents who were born in Lahore though always feel nostalgic about the place and the great reluctance that they felt in leaving the city. The language and the culture that they see in the PTV dramas still draws them to it. In fact I dont see the Indian tele serials but would have watched the Ptv dramas of 1980s-early 1990s more than quite a few of Pakistanis. I feel the question of the two nation theory comes to the mind, when one sees and envies the other country's growth, development, evolution of the society, co-existence with people of other religions, safety and law and order and so many other things. For example we in India would always envy the existence of colour TV in Pakistan, when we didnt have it. Or would wish that had the country not been divided, then we would have the likes of Imran, Wasim and our nemesis one Mr. Miandad playing for us.

But if the partition had not taken place, then I feel that there would have been a lot of lava waiting to erupt at an inopportune moment and probably would have seen a lot of civil unrest.

As med911 remarked correctly that the idea was correct but the implementation was far from it.

Have just joined the forum and am very happy to find that most people in the forum are forward looking Pakistanis far from the religious fanatics that a lot of news suggest.

[Doppleganger]

Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

@CM

Yes that is why Jews who in the US are less than 1% of the population have 20% of the seats in the Senate and the House of representatives. Numbers mean nothing when it comes to wielding power.

So Partition was a blunder as muslims could have been the jews of india....

[CM]

Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

In your pipe dreams. If anything the Muslims would have ruled India like they did for hundreds of years. You guys got lucky.

[BindazChakkar]

Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

@Doppleganger

So Partition was a blunder as muslims could have been the jews of india....

how is that even possible? you might be missing the OP's (Psyop) entire point which is without the partition muslims would have been 30 to 35% of the undivided country and thus stronger.

I agree with him.

[BindazChakkar]

Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

@KatDaddy

Do you think, India would be interested in an arrangement like EU where Pakistanis will be able to travel and work in India freely? You must be joking.

India will absolutely be thrilled for any arrangement that normalizes ties. That was not always the case but Indians have become very patriotic and very motivated to economically advance the country. More and more are realizing feud with Pakistan is a huge distraction that is holding them back. While they won't pay to buy peace, good mutually desirable trading and travel arrangements will be welcomed

[Med911]

Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

@delind

It would be great for the long term future of the subcontinent if there is some kind of a common union created.

Going back to the thread, I feel that the partition done at the time that it was done was a correct decision. My parents who were born in Lahore though always feel nostalgic about the place and the great reluctance that they felt in leaving the city. The language and the culture that they see in the PTV dramas still draws them to it. In fact I dont see the Indian tele serials but would have watched the Ptv dramas of 1980s-early 1990s more than quite a few of Pakistanis. I feel the question of the two nation theory comes to the mind, when one sees and envies the other country's growth, development, evolution of the society, co-existence with people of other religions, safety and law and order and so many other things. For example we in India would always envy the existence of colour TV in Pakistan, when we didnt have it. Or would wish that had the country not been divided, then we would have the likes of Imran, Wasim and our nemesis one Mr. Miandad playing for us.

But if the partition had not taken place, then I feel that there would have been a lot of lava waiting to erupt at an inopportune moment and probably would have seen a lot of civil unrest.

As med911 remarked correctly that the idea was correct but the implementation was far from it.

Have just joined the forum and am very happy to find that most people in the forum are forward looking Pakistanis far from the religious fanatics that a lot of news suggest.

Welcome to the forum.

Yes, I believe it was a great tragedy that so many people had to leave their homes. Lahore was as much the home of your parents as any Muslim. I dont think this was ever the intention of those who conceived of the two nation theory.

I am ever the optimist however, and I believe that all people and nations can redeem themselves. I truly believe that people eventually see error of their ways. So while I do not see a reunion with India at any time in the future, I do foresee a time when Indians who had left Pakistan, and Pakistanis who left India will be able to buy property and live in cities and towns that their ancestors were forced to leave so many years earlier. I sincerely hope we can resolve the issues that divide the two countries and live as proper neighbors, and fulfill what Jinnah had envisioned, two states living side by side as brothers.

[KatDaddy]

Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)

@Med911

Actually, former Indian PM, I believe it was VeggiePie, stated that we should have a common south Asian currency, similar to the EU...

And a Union is meant to be mutually beneficial, not for the sake of any one nation. In that sense, Indians would also be welcome into Pakistan.

People like you however, who are barely welcome onto an internet forum, would be welcome to leave the subcontinent all together... Advice for you, a nation that can barely feed its own people (India), has no place being condescending towards others... Know your place.

I raised a legitimate questions. I was not taking cheap shots by making fun of leaders' name.

My question to you would any country in the world in India's position trust Pakistan to have a free border?

Let us start with Mr. Vajpayee, yes he wished for a single currency like EU, but what did Pakistan do ? Welcomed him on one hand and sent troops into Kargil. It lets people who organize Punjabi (Pakistani) terrorist groups and send them to India to blow up ordinary people (Bombay) roam freely and collect money for more such activities. Look at duplicity of Pakistan, leave alone to India, look at the games it plays with Afghan. It even back stabbed US after 9/11. So, tell me how could you equate India/Pakistan to other relationships you mentioned.

India's poverty is nothing to with the issue at hand. India can be poor, but it has every right to safe guard itself from outside danger. The train has left, the train which would make trade and other concessions to Pakistan to improve relationships has left. In this very pages, I have written about the need for India good relationship with Pakistan, that was before Kargil, before Bombay, before the news leaks about of how US was being played by Pakistan (both US and India are my home land). Now, Pakistan have to do lot more to prove it's sincerity.

Sorry for the rant....but.. you really ticked me off.