Also Indians/Pakistanis are more mixed than just Aryans – a tenous and weak link at best to connect India with Iran. Yes, they had some shared more than a few hundred years ago, yet an Iranian is as disctinct from Indian as he is from an Arab.
Although Pakhtuns are Eastern Iranian peoples, they have diverged from the main line of Iranian-Aryan branch. Its unfortunate that Pakistanis walk around either thinking that they are the same as Indians or actually believe that they are “foriegn” when they are essentially Iranian influenced Indians. If we abandon the notion of an independent Pakistan, then you people do belong with the Indians.
As for connecting Pakhtuns to India, sure, our histories intersect at the points that the Pakhtuns have launched attacks into India. With the exception of the Sikh empires one off victory across abaseen (Indus) and the British occupation, Pakhtuns do not share the same linakge that Punjabis, Sindhis, and Urdu Speakers do.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
^ Also, I should add: There is nothing wrong with wanting to be with "your own people." I mean I actually believe in the concept of Pakistan, however if most Pakistanis want to join up with India, then we have no choice but to reestablish the natural border at Indus.
And how did you come to this conclusion? I don't think any Pakistani wants to join up with India or Bangladesh, both are failed states.
However, I'm not so sure about China, but that will angered the West and besides I don't think China want us.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
In fact when we were told to stick together as a jamma' why did we not listen to this vital advice?
Numbers alone are not everything. Shia Arabs were 60% of Iraq but were almost powerless there, while Jews are about 2% of American population and still so influential.
Point is that majority of those 33% Muslims would have been in less developed areas if Pakistan and Bangladesh were not formed. Plus there vote would almost absolutely have been divided, so 33% is only the best case scenario.
Muslims should be thankful that Pakistan came into being. Had landlords not eliminated the leadership of original Muslim League, Pakistan would have been in much better shape than today.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
I would say it was the other way around until the Ranjit Singh + British, where the Afghans would attack the subcontinent. I mean talk about revisionist history - Afghanistan to THIS day is split between Central and South Asia. Only due to the Pakistani and Indian meddling that it is located in South Asia.
Besides, if we talk about “Pakistan” rejoining India, do you REALLY believe (as a Non-Pakhtun) that we have MORE similarities with Indians than Afghans? that is a ludicrious thought in itself!
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
And how did you come to this conclusion? I don't think any Pakistani wants to join up with India or Bangladesh, both are failed states.
However, I'm not so sure about China, but that will angered the West and besides I don't think China want us.
Thats my question for the OP and others who are talking about this hypothetical scenario. This talk about strength in numbers -- somehow the Muslims being united in India will make a difference. I believe in the concept of Pakistan and Pakistaniyat, the fact that we are different from Indians and Afghans. However if we are talking about splitting, then KP and my people have very stark differences with the Indians. No hate towards Indians, they comprise of a large and distinct group of their own.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
I see more and more pakistanis (overseas) who seem to be suggesting that the root of all problems of pakistan today is the very concept on which paksitan was formed........
like....pakistan was a mistake to begin with.............
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
I don't think any Pakistani wants to join up with India or Bangladesh, both are failed states.
Well, agreed that no Pakistani wants to join with India, but it takes a lot of guts to call India a "failed state".
I would say we don't want to join India because we are ideologically different. Doesn't matter whether India is rich or poor.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
Thats my question for the OP and others who are talking about this hypothetical scenario. This talk about strength in numbers -- somehow the Muslims being united in India will make a difference. I believe in the concept of Pakistan and Pakistaniyat, the fact that we are different from Indians and Afghans. However if we are talking about splitting, then KP and my people have very stark differences with the Indians. No hate towards Indians, they comprise of a large and distinct group of their own.
hmmm...you're saying we are closer than Iranians than Indians but interestingly Iran has stronger ties with India than Pakistan.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
Numbers alone are not everything. Shia Arabs were 60% of Iraq but were almost powerless there, while Jews are about 2% of American population and still so influential.
Point is that majority of those 33% Muslims would have been in less developed areas if Pakistan and Bangladesh were not formed. Plus there vote would almost absolutely have been divided, so 33% is only the best case scenario.
Muslims should be thankful that Pakistan came into being. Had landlords not eliminated the leadership of original Muslim League, Pakistan would have been in much better shape than today.
^
This is spot on. The areas of Northwest India were deeply impoverished. Let us not deny history and accept the fact that Sindhi Muslims labored under the boots of Hindu and Parsi power in Sindh, Punjabi Muslims were held under the tyranny of Hindu nad Sikh landlords, while Pakhtuns were treated animals and/or savages who could be slaughtered at will by the British. Baluchis were largely ignored. In fact it was the Bengali Muslims who actually shared power with their Hindu cousins and the Urdu speakers, despite being part of the corrupt and decrepit Mughal Empire still retained knowledge of bureacracy.
Its easy to talk about "glorious" history of Muslim peoples in India, however the reality is that the lower strata of undivided India would have comprised of Muslims. Check the land records of 1946 the Northwest India if you don't believe me.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
hmmm...you're saying we are closer than Iranians than Indians but interestingly Iran has stronger ties with India than Pakistan.
These are political ties, not ties of the people. Any Urdu speaker/reader going to Iran can read its language, understand every third word of Farsi. If you check the history of Pakistan-Iran relations, they have been excellent until the overthrow of the Shah in 1979.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
I see more and more pakistanis (overseas) who seem to be suggesting that the root of all problems of pakistan today is the very concept on which paksitan was formed........
like....pakistan was a mistake to begin with.............
Agreed this is a SHAMEFUL thread and needs to be closed. Those who do not agree with Pakistan's independence, are MOST WELCOME to join up with India or any country of choosing.
I recommend that we work on creating a true Pakistani identity, one that may take pieces from our neighbors but is unique.
I am sorry to have to talk based on "provincial" or "ethnic" basis -- any talk of merging with India WILL cause me to do it, because I value the independence.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
These are political ties, not ties of the people. Any Urdu speaker/reader going to Iran can read its language, understand every third word of Farsi. If you check the history of Pakistan-Iran relations, they have been excellent until the overthrow of the Shah in 1979.
Urdu has a lot of Farsi words but the grammatical structure is totally different and what about the Hindi they speak in India, that's closer to urdu than Farsi.
I don't think this argument of Pakistanis closer to Iranians than Indians is valid. And where did Iran and Afghanistan come from in this discussion anyway?
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
Agreed this is a SHAMEFUL thread and needs to be closed. Those who do not agree with Pakistan's independence, are MOST WELCOME to join up with India or any country of choosing.
I recommend that we work on creating a true Pakistani identity, one that may take pieces from our neighbors but is unique.
I am sorry to have to talk based on "provincial" or "ethnic" basis -- any talk of merging with India WILL cause me to do it, because I value the independence.
Who the hell is talking about merging with India? I see only you are talking about some sort of merging... with Iran.
can't believe this is coming from a very well educated person.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
Buddhism started in Nepal, a Hindu state within the Indian subcontinent. The Sidharatha Buddha was originally a Hindu. So It very much a religion rooted in India, and built on Hindu philosophy and principles.
There are MANY groups within India who are ethnically and genetically different. South Indians and North Indians are genetically different. Kashmiris are genetically different. India is not ethnically uniform.
Tenuous link? Indian Hindus trace their decent from Central Asian tribe called the Aryans. This is a fact.
Iranians are also a tribe of Aryans. Infact, the very name “Iran” is derived from Aryan. It is an established fact that the Aryan tribes expanded throughout India and into Europe.
Why do I sense a hint of racial superiority in your tone? You are Iranian somehow, yet Indians, who are established as Aryans descent are not? Why are you so anxious to be labeled as Iranian?
You know there are even those who believe you people are of the same stock as the Hindu Rajputs? http://www.khyber.org/pashtohistory/hindurajputs.shtml
To be quite honest, I dont think Pashtuns really know who their ancestors were. Whats conjecture here is to assume that you have absolutely no connection to Hindus and are infact of Iranian stock (Which if you are, makes you of the same aryan stock as the Indian Aryans rajputs in this case).
KP, has been a part of a number of Indian Kingdoms, including Hindu and Buddhist ones. Gandhara, an empire which included Taxila in Punjab, also included KP and Afghanistan. It is during this era that the Bamiyan Buddhas were sculpted. The Mauriyan empire extended into Afghanistan.
The History of YOUR people, has been of mutual coexistance with Indian HINDU and Buddhist empires for centuries. Your area (Khyber Pakhtunkhwa) has been with India and Indian influence for its entire history.
And we dont hate Afghanistan. But this insistence that somehow Afghanistan is somehow synonymous with Pakhtun is nonsense. There are more Pakhtuns on the Pakistan side, who have been influenced far more by Hindu and buddhist India then any nomadic tribes of Afghanistan. You are just as much a part of India as we are, as you region and your people have always lived here side by side with Hindus, animists and Buddhists.
And no one is saying we should split Pakistan. But as a principle, even Islam teaches that we should try to live together not separate. And if you didnt know, there were many among your people who opposed partition. Including the famous Bacha Khan, a close a friend of Gandhi. Even Jinnah tried to avoid partition until the bitter end when he realized there was no other way around it.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
Urdu has a lot of Farsi words but the grammatical structure is totally different and what about the Hindi they speak in India, that's closer to urdu than Farsi.
I don't think this argument of Pakistanis closer to Iranians than Indians is valid. And where did Iran and Afghanistan come from in this discussion anyway?
I was referring to people from Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa and Baluchistanis not all Pakistanis -- although Urdu does have more farsi words.
Iran and Afghanistan entered the picture when the OP decided to make a thread discussing how GREAT it would be if Pakistan (or Bangladesh) were not created as separate states. Which prompted me to say that: If that were the case, then ALL of what is now Pakistan would not be a part of this "United India" because two of the Western provinces have more in common with Afghanistan and Iran than India.
I think Pakistan's creaation was the best move within the post colonial context -- failures of subsequent leadership nonwithstanding, the concept of nationhood is still very much intact.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
I was referring to people from Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa and Baluchistanis not all Pakistanis -- although Urdu does have more farsi words.
Iran and Afghanistan entered the picture when the OP decided to make a thread discussing how GREAT it would be if Pakistan (or Bangladesh) were not created as separate states. Which prompted me to say that: If that were the case, then ALL of what is now Pakistan would not be a part of this "United India" because two of the Western provinces have more in common with Afghanistan and Iran than India.
I think Pakistan's creaation was the best move within the post colonial context -- failures of subsequent leadership nonwithstanding, the concept of nationhood is still very much intact.
I think you need to wait for the OP's response to your concern before calling for locking of this thread. Is this even fair?
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
Ludicrous as it may seem the division saw the Muslims split at least in 3 smaller groups and yet the Hindus managed to survive the separation mostly living in a single country.
I am surprised to see people here think that this is a thread intended to support going back to become one country ... Not at all ... This is a thread however about the lessons we can learn from history ... what went right and went wrong ... which promises were kept and which were empty statements ... let's try to wipe our biases aside and stop treating the nation's forefathers as if they were faultless visionaries. We have the advantage of knowing what happened they acted on the risk ... now we have a clearer view ... and if we care so much for Pakistan then we should for sure do something about it ... and ask ourselves how on Earth did we let ourselves get into our current predicament. Also ... we need to start thinking about Muslims all over the world and seriously start to offer and work on real solutions ... we need to stop thinking that any dirt outside our doorsteps is somebody else's to resolve we need to become an ummah ... this is advice of our prophet and whether we think ourselves wiser for not doing it because we feel it can not be achieved or we simply don't care enough we need to stop and rethink a few things ....
What are the real harms of nationalism?
Are dissenting voices really unpatriotic or can a person who questions be seeking betterment?
Let's not be proud (pride - the garment that is only befitting to Allah (SWT)) but let's be humble and grateful and usher pride in our nation by working to better ourselves ...
Is the history of Pakistan that we have learnt really as accurate as we believe?
What gain is there to be patriotic beyond reason? Or more devoted to the flag than our faith? What would our prophet Muhammad (SAW) have done? What did the Sahabah do in similar situations? Did we ever ask ourselves these questions 60 years ago? If so ... what dialogues took place demonstrating this? .... I've said it before ... this is NOT a thread justifying return to one country ... it is a critical analysis on us as Muslims of the subcontinent.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
What similarity do you have with Afghans? You speak Pashtho, while the majority of Afghans speak Dari.
You and your ancestors may not have spoken Hindi or Urdu, but im certain you could all understand it and speak it to some extent.
One of the reasons why Afghanistan has been so difficult to govern, is because you have distinct groups, unable to reconcile with living with each other. Its precisly because you are so distinct that you cant get along. Isnt it always the case that Pashtuns are pitted against everyone else in Afghanistan?
And honestly, I find it ridiculous to point of being laughable, that you and your ancestors, and the majority of your people (who live in KP) think you have more in common with Afghans, who dont even speak your language and are separated from you by the Hindu Kush mountains, then Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhist Indians who literally live right next door to you, hell you even admitted your ancestors were BUDDHIST. I mean honestly man, have you ever even looked at a map? Your area lies literally, right among Hindu India. Hindus even lived among you for centuries! Yet somehow you have more in common with Tajiks and Uzbeks! Are U kidding me!
that is a ludicrious thought in itself!