Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
As Jinnah had said, we can be closer by separating. An oxymoron yes, but still a factual truth I think.
But we have had 60 years to realise this ... Are we closer or more distant to our Muslim brothers and sisters in India today? Are we closer today to Hindus from our separation? I think sweet talking Jinnah saab has swept the nation to achieve a single end ... and his words resound until today ... I perhaps would be in the same boat if I were not emotionally removed due to my British upbringing and focus on Islam rather than politics.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
The weakness I think came out of the manner in which partition occurred. Had it been amicable, had their not been mass genocide and forced displacement, if Kashmir had been resolved peaceful, I think the situation could have been different. If we are to oppose partition, it would be for these reasons. The principle as I said is yet sound, but if in practical terms we couldnt have accomplished it without such mass misery, then it was not worth it.
Partition was not meant to be a racist and xenophobic endeavor, as Jinnah was not any of these things. However, it did become that, and that will be the eternal tragedy.
Peace Med911
I agree with the top parts finally people hearing what I am saying ... but you see the bold text confuses me ... I thought the two-state theory was exactly about racism ...
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
But we have had 60 years to realise this ... Are we closer or more distant to our Muslim brothers and sisters in India today? Are we closer today to Hindus from our separation? I think sweet talking Jinnah saab has swept the nation to achieve a single end ... and his words resound until today ... I perhaps would be in the same boat if I were not emotionally removed due to my British upbringing and focus on Islam rather than politics.
The reason we arent closer is because of all the noxious poison that resulted from partition going all wrong.
I still however believe the principle itself was realistic and wise. Sometimes, people are better of as neighbors. A couple may divorce or seperate, and remain friends, but if their divorce is messy and biter, everyone suffers. Ours was a messy, bloody and extremely bitter divorce, with much still unsettled. That's the problem.
I dont agree with everything Jinnah did, nor am I convinced by his rhetoric, but practical life has taught me that sometimes the closer you are, the more problems there are. Everyone needs their space. Its true for individuals, and its true for nations.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
Peace Med911
I agree with the top parts finally people hearing what I am saying ... but you see the bold text confuses me ... I thought the two-state theory was exactly about racism ...
The partition was simply an acknowledgment of existing reality. We are two communities, Hindu and Muslims. Politically Muslims and Hindus have been at odds.
Its not an inherent hatred for Hindus or their culture, but a understanding of ground realities. Hindus were a majority, and Muslims feared they would be marginalized politically and socially.
Not every separation is due to hatred. There are all sorts of reason why peoples separate.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
Peace Enigmatic
Everything you are saying only shows how false we are to our own guiding principles ... those things do not justify partition. I'm taking the advice of our prophet Muhammad (SAW) that we should be unified - now this to me means "regionally unified" as well as "unified by heart" - now if what we are doing today goes against this advice then all of it is wrong ... but for sure none of it is justified not the partition and not the disunity within the ummah.
Am not justifying partition, two nation theory or Pakistan itself when I say this. I talk about differences and the controversies that exist b/w various groups and sects of Muslims. I completely agree with the unification of Muslims as in accordance with the teachings of Sunnah and Quran is what should be there but it's practically impossible. We are just too divided amongst ourselves in terms of beliefs and sectarian differences that makes the number of us insignifcant.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
The reason we arent closer is because of all the noxious poison that resulted from partition going all wrong.
I still however believe the principle itself was realistic and wise. Sometimes, people are better of as neighbors. A couple may divorce or seperate, and remain friends, but if their divorce is messy and biter, everyone suffers. Ours was a messy, bloody and extremely bitter divorce, with much still unsettled. That's the problem.
I dont agree with everything Jinnah did, nor am I convinced by his rhetoric, but practical life has taught me that sometimes the closer you are, the more problems there are. Everyone needs their space. Its true for individuals, and its true for nations.
Let's consult Islam again ... the Islamic condition for divorce is the last resort after all attempts for securing the marriage have failed ... history tells us when the British were leaving the first thing suggested was separation.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
And it's just not about our closeness to Indian Muslims or Bengali Muslims but rather on a wider scale it's about the entire Muslim population. Don't KSA look down on all Asian Muslims too. I have literally myself witnessed their somewhat biased treatment towards the South Asian Muslims.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
The partition was simply an acknowledgment of existing reality. We are two communities, Hindu and Muslims. Politically Muslims and Hindus have been at odds.
Its not an inherent hatred for Hindus or their culture, but a understanding of ground realities. Hindus were a majority, and Muslims feared they would be marginalized politically and socially.
Not every separation is due to hatred. There are all sorts of reason why peoples separate.
Yes that is true ... most of those reasons you will find are to serve the interests of individuals or human desire for worldly gain. Or perhaps that we were deceived by the coy Britishers and broke up the country to fulfil their aim.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
And it's just not about our closeness to Indian Muslims or Bengali Muslims but rather on a wider scale it's about the entire Muslim population. Don't KSA look down on all Asian Muslims too. I have literally myself witnessed their somewhat biased treatment towards the South Asian Muslims.
That is why the Last Sermon is so important for us today ... I agree wholeheartedly.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
There is one thing which has always been in my mind.
Did Muslims rule Hindus for 700 years OR was it that India had a Muslim King, with subjects of all religions.
The reason I ask this, because we find that a lot of Mugal Kings, had hindu generals and even prime ministers. These Mogul king's hindu generals would fight any errent state regardless if it was Hindu or Muslim. The Mugal rulers were quite secular, and hindu's & muslims had equal opportunities.
It was only kings like Aurangzeb - who started enforcing islam, that started dividing the country. Revolts sprung up by sikhs & marathas - and the infighting weakened india & was thus gobbled up by the British.
The 1857 revolt (or first battle of independence) with hindu & muslim soldiers again unitedly fighting the british, proves that Hindus & Muslims had common aims & insperations even as late as the mid 19th century. Thereafter the British secured India by "Divide & Rule".
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
Let's consult Islam again ... the Islamic condition for divorce is the last resort after all attempts for securing the marriage have failed ... history tells us when the British were leaving the first thing suggested was separation.
Its debatable whether all avenues were explored. Jinnah obviously thought they were after Nehru rejected the mission plan.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
I read all the reponses with great interest, becuase it shows lack of self-confidence and patriotism in many of the members.
The concept of a united Ummah is at best a pipedream. Lacking sincere leadership and the true spirit of Islam, there are more than 2 dozen Muslim countries. Turning towards South Asia, I fail to see the unification of Muslims in India to achieve anything less than the collective misery and marginalization of the people. Why does Pakistan (and to lesser extent Bangladesh) have to fold under this supposed "strength in numbers" in India, when numerous Arab speaking nations continue to remain independent despite the Arab Spring.
Returning towards practicality, only Sindhis+Punjabis+Urdu speakers would be returning to this supposed "United India" as they comprise of peoples that are largely descended from Hindus and Sikhs, culturally similar, and hold this desire for "unification." The residents of Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa would naturally belong to Afghanistan and Baluchistanis be either independent or aligned with Iran. Nothing less would be acceptable to the Western Provinces. My forefathers actually voted for Pakistan and it was not handed on a silver platter -- to see these types of threads is both heartbreaking and indicates the lack of confidence in a separate nationality.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
Yes that is true ... most of those reasons you will find are to serve the interests of individuals or human desire for worldly gain. Or perhaps that we were deceived by the coy Britishers and broke up the country to fulfil their aim.
Or is it being pragmatic in light of anticipated conflict? Your premise is flawed. To live amicably and respectfuly of another, doesnt imply living together. Pakistan and India can live side by side as brothers, but there is nothing for me to conclude that they could live together as one country. There would be to many people stepping on each others feet.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
I read all the reponses with great interest, becuase it shows lack of self-confidence and patriotism in many of the members.The concept of a united Ummah is at best a pipedream. Lacking sincere leadership and the true spirit of Islam, there are more than 2 dozen Muslim countries. Turning towards South Asia, I fail to see the unification of Muslims in India to achieve anything less than the collective misery and marginalization of the people. Why does Pakistan (and to lesser extent Bangladesh) have to fold under this supposed "strength in numbers" in India, when numerous Arab speaking nations continue to remain independent despite the Arab Spring.Returning towards practicality, only Sindhis+Punjabis+Urdu speakers would be returning to this supposed "United India" as they comprise of peoples that are largely descended from Hindus and Sikhs, culturally similar, and hold this desire for "unification." The residents of Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa would naturally belong to Afghanistan and Baluchistanis be either independent or aligned with Iran. Nothing less would be acceptable to the Western Provinces. My forefathers actually voted for Pakistan and it was not handed on a silver platter -- to see these types of threads is both heartbreaking and indicates the lack of confidence in a separate nationality.
This seems factualy of.Kp has been on some intertwined with India. Indian empires also extended to KP and into Afghanistan. These were not just Muslim, but also Hin
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
And it's just not about our closeness to Indian Muslims or Bengali Muslims but rather on a wider scale it's about the entire Muslim population*. Don't KSA look down on all Asian Muslims too. I have literally myself witnessed their somewhat biased treatment towards the South Asian Muslims.*
Yeah, they are notorious for it (as are Kuwaitis)..
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
This seems factualy of.Kp has been on some intertwined with India. Indian empires also extended to KP and into Afghanistan. These were not just Muslim, but also Hin
KP is as intertwined to India as much as the Turks/Mongols that invaded India were. People of KP were Buddhists and animist prior to Islam.
All that being aside, Pakistani Punjabis and Indians are from the same lineage, same applies to Sindhis. For Urdu speakers it might be a bit more mish-mashed, however just like the Turks/Mongols they became mongralized and Indianized.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
I read all the reponses with great interest, becuase it shows lack of self-confidence and patriotism in many of the members.The concept of a united Ummah is at best a pipedream. Lacking sincere leadership and the true spirit of Islam, there are more than 2 dozen Muslim countries. Turning towards South Asia, I fail to see the unification of Muslims in India to achieve anything less than the collective misery and marginalization of the people. Why does Pakistan (and to lesser extent Bangladesh) have to fold under this supposed "strength in numbers" in India, when numerous Arab speaking nations continue to remain independent despite the Arab Spring.Returning towards practicality, only Sindhis+Punjabis+Urdu speakers would be returning to this supposed "United India" as they comprise of peoples that are largely descended from Hindus and Sikhs, culturally similar, and hold this desire for "unification." The residents of Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa would naturally belong to Afghanistan and Baluchistanis be either independent or aligned with Iran. Nothing less would be acceptable to the Western Provinces. My forefathers actually voted for Pakistan and it was not handed on a silver platter -- to see these types of threads is both heartbreaking and indicates the lack of confidence in a separate nationality.
This seems factualy of.Kp has been on some level intertwined with India. Indian empires also extended to KP and into Afghanistan. These were not just Muslim, but also Hindu, buddhist and Sikh empires. As for your ancestors, what were they prior to the coming of Islam? More then likely they were buddhist, or somthing similar to hinduism, because considering the proximity, there must have been much cultural exchange. So KP historically is very much part of India. And Balochis would probably be independant considering Iran aka Aryan, share common ancestory with Indian...
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
^ Also, I should add: There is nothing wrong with wanting to be with "your own people." I mean I actually believe in the concept of Pakistan, however if most Pakistanis want to join up with India, then we have no choice but to reestablish the natural border at Indus.
For all the hatred of Afghans on this board, how shameful is it to read about the creation of Pakistan to be discussed and attempts made to discredit it. Afghanis, despite comprising of many different ethnic groups, along with perpetual warfare, no one has dared to talk about splitting up the nation. I'd rather cast my lot with those who believe in the independence of ones peoples.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
am still of the opinion that the partition was never a wrong decision...things just took an ugly turn as Pakistan got into the hands of corrupt politicians throughout history and the lust for power and self satisfaction triumphed over national interest.
Re: Split of Population by Religion - India and Pakistan (On Hindsight)
KP is as intertwined to India as much as the Turks/Mongols that invaded India were. People of KP were Buddhists and animist prior to Islam. All that being aside, Pakistani Punjabis and Indians are from the same lineage, same applies to Sindhis. For Urdu speakers it might be a bit more mish-mashed, however just like the Turks/Mongols they became mongralized and Indianized.
KP has still been part of India or its sphere of influence. There are many people who are of different ethnicity, but are still part of the subcontinent. Your people may not be the same ethnicity as Hindus, but that does not mean u are divorced of the subcontinent. You may not be Indian, or Hindu, but KP is very much a part of the Indian subcontinent.And your anvestors were buddhist, an indian religion, or animists, who also existed in India. So I dont see how your ancestors religion made them in any way distinct. If anything, ur ancestors had more in common with their hindu neighbors then the Tajiks, uzbeks etc of Afghanistan.