hmm…are you and your spouse Muslim/desi? just curious. Of course you are entitled to do whatever you want…but I rarely hear a desi/muslim couple say that they dont want kids. May I ask why you and your spouse feel this way?
Split from how many kids do you want
hmm.....are you and your spouse Muslim/desi? just curious. Of course you are entitled to do whatever you want...but I rarely hear a desi/muslim couple say that they dont want kids. May I ask why you and your spouse feel this way?
Religiosity and ethnicity are irrelevant; there all types of people in every social group, we just don't know about them because we stick to our "own kind" generally.
As for why, I think my husband does want them later in his life (he is nearly 30 right now) but at this moment he does not think about them or want them. As for myself, I have never really liked kids, or picked up or played with other people's children. I find them too demanding, too time-consuming, too ungrateful, too... stupid until they are at least 7. I don't like thinking that my identity will be transformed, that one child will make me into a mother first and an individual with my own needs second. I don't like the thought of sacrificing anything or making compromises. And there is always the loss of control. I was a horror as a child and gave my parents much grief. I like to control my life, I would not want someone else doing so.
Please don't tell me I will change my mind and that "all women do". First of all, not all change their mind, second, it's insulting, as if one is insinuating that I cannot make a decision and stick to it.
Re: How may kids you want to have?
I have never really liked kids, or picked up or played with other people's children. I find them too demanding, too time-consuming, too ungrateful, too... stupid until they are at least 7. I don't like thinking that my identity will be transformed, that one child will make me into a mother first and an individual with my own needs second. I don't like the thought of sacrificing anything or making compromises. And there is always the loss of control. I was a horror as a child and gave my parents much grief. I like to control my life, I would not want someone else doing so. ** Please don't tell me I will change my mind and that "all women do". First of all, not all change their mind, second, it's insulting, as if one is insinuating that I cannot make a decision and stick to it**.
Well, wants and needs do change over time, and if someone decides they dont want kids now but do want htem later, that doesn't necessarily mean that person is flaky and unable to stick to a decision....
That being said, it's a decision that's between you and your husband. You know your situation, your abilities, and values the best, and will be able to handle all the criticism that comes your way.
Btw, do you get criticized a lot? What do you do when desi aunties (here n in pak) ask you abt kids (coz they always do!) Fortunately all the imp ppl are standing behind whatever decision i make but its still funny to hear desi aunties go "parhai choro, jaldi se BETA paida karo"...:p
Re: How may kids you want to have?
We haven't been criticized for our choice, which we haven't even made public because it's not anyone's business. We don't interact with people who would criticize anyway, and certainly we have not had any interaction with desi aunties for, what four years now I think. His parents haven't said anything and though my parents think I should not be so rigid, they have never come out and criticized me or told to me to have children. I have usually done what I wanted throughout my life and have been very independent, my parents are very important to me but they do not interfere with my life. And even if we were criticized, I doubt it would affect us. Both of us have not been around family for very long even prior to marriage. We are also pretty asocial and have no desi friends. If somebody does criticize, why would their opinion be important? We are used to doing things on our own without asking people and people in our lives do not really question us. It is good that way, what we do we only justify to ourselves.
Re: How may kids you want to have?
.
I find them too demanding, too time-consuming, too ungrateful, too... stupid until they are at least 7. I don't like thinking that my identity will be transformed, that one child will make me into a mother first and an individual with my own needs second. I don't like the thought of sacrificing anything or making compromises. And there is always the loss of control. I was a horror as a child and gave my parents much grief.
Its good that you are honest to yourself. I hope that you will stand firm on this decison and will not give in to demands of yor husband if he later does want to have kids, bcoz it will be dishonest on ur part if you conceive a kid despite knowing you cannot adjust yourself to child's needs.
Re: How may kids you want to have?
Its good that you are honest to yourself. I hope that you will stand firm on this decison and will not give in to demands of yor husband if he later does want to have kids, bcoz it will be dishonest on ur part if you conceive a kid despite knowing you cannot adjust yourself to child's needs.
First of all, my husband does not make demands. We do not have a traditional marriage nor do we define marriage in the traditional way nor do we define it in the Islamic sense. Secondly, even if I wanted a child, I believe that a child is a community responsibility. I am a Marxist and if I wanted one, I might have a child through a surrogate mother, give it to another to breastfeed (was this not how your prophet was raised?), send it to boarding school, or send him to live with family, or to be taken care of by a live-in individual in a nanny position (not necessarily a woman). I do not believe children are to be raised by "parents" (I don't believe in parenthood) because that is something that arose with capitalism and as a Marxist, of course capitalism is the devil for me. I do not believe in motherhood or primary parenting, because though I am a woman, I believe gender is dead. Were I to have a child, would I be a "mother"? No. With new definitions in place, there is no such thing as bad mother, bad parent. If I were to have a child, I would be involved only in the capacity of being a teacher, teaching him art, literature, philosophy, history and so on. The child would not be babied, patronized, and treated as a baby; he would be treated as an adult whose primary need is the cultivation of his mind. He needs books and an abacus, a globe and a microscope, nature and a book on botany, not mothering and cooing and pacifiers.
Now, refrain from personal attacks. Not all of us think like you and actually abhor your conceptions of parenting and marriage which to us are reactionary and embedded in a stifling status quo. Do not cast the net of your ideologies upon others because we are not of your world and your net is like gossamer, in our world (a world which is quite wide, unlike what you might assume) it is diaphanous, invisible.
Re: How may kids you want to have?
existentialist, what a cold and self-indulgent existence you've chosen! Please dont that that the wrong way, it isnt meant as critisism...it just IS what it is yeah? Cold and self-indulgent....
Babies - ALL of them - need the type of cuddling and cooing and pacifiers that you abhor. The cold type of mothering that you'd employ can cause the type of sensory deprivation that led many specialists to refer to autistic children as victims of "refrigerator moms". So its a good thing that you recognize your limitations in this. Good for you for standing up for what you want in your life.
May you find peace and happiness.
Me? I want 2 children. GIRLS. Girly girls.
What did i get? Three boyz!
Would I change it? NO WAY NO HOW!!!
BOYZ are the best, they just love everything we do, love their life, love their family and each other. And so many less worries with boyz! (Sorry but thats the truth lol!)
If i decide to try for a girl, I'm quite convinced at this point that I'd have more boyz....I mean my miscarriages were girls and I think theres just something between me and hubby that isnt girl-creative...but heck if we win lotto, I'd go for more, and actually at this point would hope for more boyz!!! :)
Re: How may kids you want to have?
Specialists always have an agenda and it is the responsibility of proper science to make sure that all that purports to be science is truly objective and not tainted by politics and biases. Case in point: a lot of the research that came out after the world wars stating scientific 'truths' like "children without mothers in the first three years of their life become asocial and suffer from emotional and mental instability later in their life" has been revealed to be research that was based on orphans, children who are without both mother and father i.e. have no parental influence whatsoever. Yet this piece of scientific research perpetrated a decidedly unscientific action by saying that it is the absence of mothers that lead to this situation. How did this shift occur? Do you know your history? Do you know the history of medicine, of politics? Do you know what happened in America after the world wars and the immense propaganda directed to woman to force them, through ideology and brain-washing through the medium of "research", to leave the work-force?
I did state that children are a community responsibility. For all of time until the Industrial Revolution, they have been taken care of PRIMARILY by grandparents and siblings and extended family. You ought to recall your history lessons from high school and remember that in hunting and foraging societies and so on, the woman worked. In poor countries, women are always working away from home (in the fields, in construction areas). The truly poor women, in both the West and the East, do not stay at home. This means that your comments and your ideologies are actually capitalistic. In all of time, children have been taken care of by the community. If you would like a history lesson, you should look up "The Cult of Womanhood/Femininity" which will trace for you the origin of the nuclear family and how very political this origin was, and exactly who funded the research that builds myths like "refrigerator mothers", how very unscientific it is.
By virtue of solidarity with the proletariat, I cannot in all good conscience (and personal preference) raise children by becoming a mother. I am neither gendered so becoming a mother is impossible for me, nor do I believe in family, nor do I believe in marriage as it is traditionally defined, nor do I believe in a universal morality, nor in religion, nor in the law, nor in a subjective science. It does not mean I am cold, none of this is symptomatic of my personality.
Re: How may kids you want to have?
Exsitentialist…wow! I have never met nor heard of anyone that shares the same views as you. I mean I have heard of couples that chose not to have children but not for the same reasons that you have mentioned.
I agree with Mamaof3…
Question…you said that you are not gendered and that it is impossible for you to have children? so you didnt really “choose” not to have children…you just cant…right? OR did you “chose” not to be gendered and had a surgical procedure done to make sure that you dont have children? might be a bit personal…you dont have to answer if you dont want.
I’m a bit confused 
Split from how many kids do you want
Are you people so insecure that you cannot handle those who do not think like you and live like you? Is this what Islam teaches you? I am thankful everyday that I have renounced it. That my views are shared by most people I have come across, such as university professors, world-renowned theorists and philosophers. People like Beauvoir, Mary Daly, Foucault are remembered. But no matter, education exists primarily to undo the damage that ignorant parenting inculcates.
There is a difference between gender and sex. Sex is pure biology, the absence of a penis, the presence of ovaries and a fallopian tube, for example. I am sure you are versed in rudimentary biology. Gender is a social characteristic; it is being macho for men, gentle and sweet for women. I am a woman. My biology is unaltered. But in terms of gender, I very consciously reject society putting a label upon me, restricting me into certain roles, into a certain personality. I choose freedom; freedom to be macho and strong or sweet or gentle. I choose to free myself from biology. I choose to be a human with a mind first. I choose to not let society dictate what I am and what I will become and what I will think (dresses rather than engine parts), purely because I have a vagina and breasts. I do not believe that society has any rights on me or that I should be someone because of something I did not choose, that was never in my power.
Re: How may kids you want to have?
Existentialist, I've read all the posts again and dont see that you've been attacked here. However, if I've offended you, I apologize.
You have to realize that your views are different in the extreme from what the majority of the planet beleives. And you've come to a desi site which consists mainly of people with traditional views in the family sense....so it only follows that when you express your very different views, you'll be at least asked about them.
The question was: how many kids do you want to have? Your answer: none. The rest is I guess for a different thread.
Re: How may kids you want to have?
[QUOTE]
First of all, my husband does not make demands. We do not have a traditional marriage nor do we define marriage in the traditional way nor do we define it in the Islamic sense.** Secondly, even if I wanted a child, I believe that a child is a community responsibility. I am a Marxist and if I wanted one, I might have a child through a surrogate mother, give it to another to breastfeed (was this not how your prophet was raised?), send it to boarding school, or send him to live with family, or to be taken care of by a live-in individual in a nanny position (not necessarily a woman). I do not believe children are to be raised by "parents" (I don't believe in parenthood) because that is something that arose with capitalism and as a Marxist, of course capitalism is the devil for me. I do not believe in motherhood or primary parenting, because though I am a woman, I believe gender is dead. Were I to have a child, would I be a "mother"? No. With new definitions in place, there is no such thing as bad mother, bad parent. If I were to have a child, I would be involved only in the capacity of being a teacher, teaching him art, literature, philosophy, history and so on. The child would not be babied, patronized, and treated as a baby; he would be treated as an adult whose primary need is the cultivation of his mind.* He needs books and an abacus, a globe and a microscope, nature and a book on botany, not mothering and cooing and pacifiers***
[/QUOTE]
.
Yoy are guilty of the same, what you accuse others of. You see the child with your own prism. A piece of protoplasm that does not demand, cry, coo, yearn for love or attention instead he/she be compliant with YOUR lifestyle.
[quote]
Now, refrain from personal attacks. Not all of us think like you and actually abhor your conceptions of parenting and marriage which to us are reactionary and embedded in a stifling status quo. Do not cast the net of your ideologies upon others because we are not of your world and your net is like gossamer, in our world (a world which is quite wide, unlike what you might assume) it is diaphanous, invisible
[/quote]
.
I am not trying to cast any net on YOU. But you might have heard, "Your freedom ends where my nose begins".
You can do whatever you like to do with yourself, but you have no right that your ideas of aloofness & cold affect the life of a child who is helpless and defenseless.
You know how much the state investigates before they approve an adoption. If they followed the same procedure before they allowed people to reporduce, theer would have been far fewer people on earth.
Re: How may kids you want to have?
It is obvious you are both illiterate regarding Marxism and anarchy and unbiased scientific research. It is also evident that you read my remarks selectively, particularly regarding the responsibility of community. Furthermore, I feel you do not really know your religion in its social aspects, particularly with regard to your prophet and how exactly that man was raised. Your reactionary attitude is most explicit in your pronouncement that I have accused others; my accusation, if you insist in calling it that, was merely secondary, after the fact. You forget comments like "you are doing the world a favor", "you are selfish" &c;.
As I said, most people I have encountered, and these are the movers and pushers of the world such as the intelligentsia, the theorists, the scientists moreover, the artists, the writers, anybody who really makes a large difference in the world and is of any consequence at all, does not breed and bring up as you do. You may continue breeding as you may but your kind is dying. To that I say: "Inshallah", the prophylaxis is nigh. Perhaps I will teach your children in university and they will know how backward their parents were, how blind, how uninformed, how unseeing that what they believed, the very core of it, was all a reification, it was never really real.
.
Yoy are guilty of the same, what you accuse others of. You see the child with your own prism. A piece of protoplasm that does not demand, cry, coo, yearn for love or attention instead he/she be compliant with YOUR lifestyle.
.
I am not trying to cast any net on YOU. But you might have heard, "Your freedom ends where my nose begins".
You can do whatever you like to do with yourself, but you have no right that your ideas of aloofness & cold affect the life of a child who is helpless and defenseless.
You know how much the state investigates before they approve an adoption. If they followed the same procedure before they allowed people to reporduce, theer would have been far fewer people on earth.
Re: How may kids you want to have?
Never before in my life have I met anyone else who feels that a child is the responsibility of the community....if YOU have a child, then the child is YOUR responsibility. Of course a community is PART of the child's life but it is in no way responsible for the life of your child. Your views are just so off-balance here E and it aint gonna work in the world. Unless of course, your small community of "intellegentsia" would be willing to change diapers and do night feedings for your surrogate-borne offspring. Sorry, your back-patting about how much smarter you are than the rest of the planet doesnt cut it no matter how you slice it. These intelligentsia to me sound more like those who follow teachings of those like David Koresh - utterly and completely convinced that THEY are right - its the rest of the planet thats wrong. I wonder what it was that made you this way.
Re: Split from how many kids do you want
Existentialist,
It saddens me to see a clearly intelligent and educated woman use her learning as you are doing in this thread -- to alienate and attack people, rather than to engage in conversation and civil debate.
The initial questions in response to your posts seemed to me to express genuine curiosity and surprise, and I do not believe that you did not know that your comments would cause such reactions in many of the posters here. But you seem to focus on the fact that you are so different from the typical woman -- and certainly the typical poster -- rather than giving people a chance to engage in conversation. Why so quick to be defensive? You have a legitimate perspective, but it's one that many people don't understand. So share it without insulting others, please.
Now, back to the topic at hand. I do think that we need to be aware of cultural studies when addressing this issue. Any theorist from Roland Barthes to Raymond Williams to Richard Hoggart addresses the idea that there is tension between culture and the individual, and that we are as much formed by the culture as we form it. So it would be incredible hubris to say that we are so enlightened that we have entirely removed ourselves from the influences of the culture surrounding us. In fact, by taking a position intentionally opposed to the status quo we are admitting that the status quo has a power over our identity.
You are right that there is a difference between man/woman and masculine/feminine. Each individual has both types of gender qualities, but in different degrees, regardless of sex. But that does not mean that a woman is not affected by her biological role or the role that society would lay out for her. It just means that she doesn't need to be defined by these.
I do think that the nuclear family structure has in many ways limited the options for many women, many of whom feel that they must first and foremost play the role of mother to their children, at times abandoning other interests/talents/aspirations/etc for this role. I think in many ways that is unfair for women. But there is no doubt that an individual needs the love that typically mothers provide, so it falls to the mother to play that role when children are born. We've evolved to be slaves to our progeny -- those that aren't enjoy their lives, but may not pass on anything to future generations.
The "intelligentsia" that you refer to have evolved as well. Having gone to some of the best schools in the country, I can tell you that the intellectual elite in academia does not live such cold life. The post-modern era has brought with it an awareness of our weaknesses as human beings, and the fact that despite our awareness of how much our needs and desires are formed by the culture around us or our genetic make up, these needs and desires still exist and we cannot ignore them. We are humans, not machines. It is the complexity in our mental, emotional, and physical states that makes us interesting. Maybe you feel it is a disgusting sign of ignorance and weakness that a woman would choose to have children; I feel that this is a woman who is not kidding herself. There are many reasons she wants the loving partner and the offspring, and there are many reasons why other women don't. But if that is what she wants, and there is no moral reason to fight that desire, and really no intelligent reason either, why fight it? How does that make her less sophisticated and intelligent? To call that woman a dying breed is to show little understanding of evolution or of cultural studies.
Okay, I've written enough for now. I look forward to the reply.
Sahar
Re: Split from how many kids do you want
WOW.....
and WOW
.......Interesting thread with VERY interesting views..... but its looks too Heated for no reason...... plus i dont like to refer to dictionary over n over again for the same thread :p so i'll just get to the point.
I dont want kids but My wife does ........
Reason : Its a matter of choice but it doesnt mean that i dislike kids...i like some kids as long as they are someone else's....
Re: Split from how many kids do you want
Existentialist , calling other illiterate in civil debates is a clear cincher of your own literacy level . One can easily presume how much catachrestic yourself is.
Pardon me for using those** C words**, wonder why it always happens when I talk some one as scholarly as your highness. :D
Re: Split from how many kids do you want
WOW..... and WOW .......Interesting thread with VERY interesting views..... but its looks too Heated for no reason...... plus i dont like to refer to dictionary over n over again for the same thread :p so i'll just get to the point.
I dont want kids but My wife does ........ Reason : Its a matter of choice but it doesnt mean that i dislike kids...i like some kids as long as they are someone else's....
Lagta hai tum nay woh kahawat nahin suni:
Bachay hamaisha apnay aur biwi hamaisha doosron ki achi lagtee hai. :)
Re: Split from how many kids do you want
Existentialist , calling other illiterate in civil debates is a clear cincher of your own literacy level . One can easily presume how much catachrestic yourself is.
Pardon me for using those** C words**, wonder why it always happens when I talk some one as scholarly as your highness. :D
Aliyish she is not callng them illiterate but 'illiterate regarding Marxism and anarchy and unbiased scientific research'. There is a difference.
Instead of getting back into an argument that has nothing to do with the subject please try to stay on topic everyone. Existentialist's views indeed deviate from typically accepted norms but it doesn't mean that those who do not subscribe to her beliefs get judgemental about her. Feel free to question her but only with an open mind.
Anyone who wish to announce how many children they want to bring into this world, please feel free to add in the original thread which may be found in 'Cafe'.
Re: Split from how many kids do you want
Ex, you seem to be obsessed! Marxist ideology/philosophy as well as bunch of others are interesting to study. They sound so cool but they are too 'narrow' to follow because they're created by other human beings. If you follow a certain ideology too much you'll end up being an extremist and extremists have very narrow definition of things. No wonder why people here are attacking you. The fact that you're trying to justify your marxist views by writing long posts(they just keep getting longer!) is enough to prove the imperfection of what you're following!