split discussion regarding history - pakistan and india

[infiniti]

Re: split discussion regarding history - pakistan and india

@-Promiscuous Paki-

Hahahahaha, it’s nice to see you poor identityless Dravidians (Indians) tapp-ing..

We Pakistanis abandoned Vedic religion because it was not good enough for us but whether we choose to follow it or throw it in the garbage bin is entirely upto us, it doesn’t change the fact that you Indians got it from us, hamaarey tukrron pe pal rahey ho..

Vedic religion is nothing more than fairytales for us anymore, not a part of our presentday religious identity but it’s merely our history (like Celtic-Paganism is part of Britians history even though Britain is Christian now). However the secular aspects of our ancient national identity is a part of our identity today as it was back then.

Religion and national identity are separate, we wish to retain the secular aspects of our ancient heritage such as language (Urdu is a Sanskritic language, and we could do with reclaiming classical Sanskrit as well) yet we reject the pagan religious aspects. Like I said earlier the Greeks are still Greek despite converting to Christianity. Prophet Muhammed PBUH was still an Arab despite rejecting the Paganism of his people.

Indians can’t seem to comprehend that nationality and religion are separate. Like I said earlier by your logic if an Indian starts worshipping Zeus (an ancient greek god) they suddenly become more Greek than Greeks because the latter are Christian…

You Indians need to get this “Ancient Pan-Indian” BullS out of your heads, present day states of Pakistan and India didn’t exist back then… Different empires ruled South-Asia at different periods in history but that doesn’t mean they were the same as present day India… Names like Pak or India are irreleveant, what falls in our land is our ruins, what falls in your land is your ruins (even if the basis for your culture/civlisation came from presentday Pakistan).

Hypothetically speaking if English becomes the official language of the EU and Spaniards all start speaking English does that mean South/Central Americans who adopted Spanish from the Spaniards can claim Spanish heriatge as their own? No, the Spanish will undoubtly become nationalityless because ones language determines their nationality but the South/Central Americans will still remain identityless slaves who adopted some elses language. Not to say that we intend on abandoning our language(s) for the sole use of Dravidians or anything because religion does not determine nationality whereas language does.

You Indian/Ganga ppl are so brainwashed with Hindutva propaganda that you can’t see beyond the false glitter/glamour your Pundits have filled your heads with.

Now you are showing your true colors and running all over the place from minorities to aryan/dravidian to nationalities and langauges. You are so full of inferiority complexes that sometimes I get caught in a dilemma as to whether pity you or thrash your uneducated and unfounded comments on the indian subcontinent history.

I do not need to tell you what’s the world’s opinion about the Indian subcontinent history and I have no doubts whatsoever about my history and my culture. But the reason why I am involved in a discussion with you is because I feel that I might be able to educate my fellow neighbour a bit if he approaches the topic with a little honesty and may be I’ll get to learn a little as well.

So if you are honest and man enough to continue the debate, let’s continue.

I’ll start by admitting that personally I feel that Pakistanis on average are better looking than Indians regardless of whatever race they belong to, whether it’s Aryan or IndoAryan. So do not bring this Aryan/Dravidian issue again in this thread. Gosh, you are better looking than me and still you are the one who has the inferiority complex.

You say that India came into existence only after Britishers left the country?
Support it with proofs please.

[ssingh]

Re: split discussion regarding history - pakistan and india

@-Promiscuous Paki-

Why don’t you try and prove otherwise? Let me guess according to some unwashed Dravidian Sadhu/Pundit Aryans originate in India.. Yeah righttttt..

As for Arabs, we are there equals not living of their tukrrey, our religion is not casteist or racist, it is universal and infact it condemns the Arabs in many places sooo…

ha…i think it is clear that only rig veda is considered to have originated from outside present india. not other scriptures. now it is for you to wash yourself:grumpy: . aryans invading this land would only imply that you too are from outside that of pakistan and those ancient civilizations to be that of dravidians. and did i say aryans are originally from india.Besides, rig veda might have even be composed in afghanistan?..

[ssingh]

Re: split discussion regarding history - pakistan and india

Besides, i dont think even all indians from north west part of india look like you guys. Rajasthanis dont. May be some people from gujrat and punjab do look like people from eastern part of pakistan.

[Abhiman]

Re: split discussion regarding history - pakistan and india

Well I guess that Pakistanis must understand that they are just lucky that quite some number of ancient Vedic sites, the area where Panini and Chanakya lived, and where RigVed got composed simply happen to fall in modern-day Pakistan.

That doesn't mean that Indians are not inheritors of Sanskrit, of RigVed and Panini/Chanakya's ideas.

I also find the discussion of genetics irrelevant. Does Irfan Pathan have Indian or Pakistani features ? Does Danish Kaneria have 100% Pakistani features ? Does Shoaib Akhtar look unmistakably Pakistani ? Does ShahRukh Khan look like a pure Peshawari ?

There is NO way to tell. North Indians and Pakistanis look very very similar. Look at Maulana Fazlur Rahman. He could pass off as any Indian. Look at Swami Jayendra Saraswathi : You know like if he wears green robes, and like grows a beard, he will look like a Sufi saint from Lahore !

[Promiscuous_Paki]

Re: split discussion regarding history - pakistan and india

^
Yeh sirf aap ki khosh fehmi hai.

[Promiscuous_Paki]

Re: split discussion regarding history - pakistan and india

@ssingh

ha…i think it is clear that only rig veda is considered to have originated from outside present india. not other scriptures. now it is for you to wash yourself:grumpy: . aryans invading this land would only imply that you too are from outside that of pakistan and those ancient civilizations to be that of dravidians. and did i say aryans are originally from india.Besides, rig veda might have even be composed in afghanistan?..

Afghanistan (and parts of Pakistan) was historically part of the Central-Asian Empire headed by the Persians, it only came to be a part of the South-Asian Empire under Ashoka Mauraya.

Maybe Afghanistan was once occupied by a Sanskritic people regardless of whose empire they were under but now it is occupied by a completely different people, they’re all of Perso-Avestan origins and don’t speak Sanskritic languages. Some of them adopted Sanskritic religion like Hinduism and Buddhism under Ashoka Mauraya but that was for a limited period of time, they were originally Zoroastrian (Afghans and some Pashtuns still celebrate Navroz with Haft-Seen table and everything as a secular holiday)..

[roadrunner]

Re: split discussion regarding history - pakistan and india

@Abhiman

Well I guess that Pakistanis must understand that they are just lucky that quite some number of ancient Vedic sites, the area where Panini and Chanakya lived, and where RigVed got composed simply happen to fall in modern-day Pakistan.

That doesn't mean that Indians are not inheritors of Sanskrit, of RigVed and Panini/Chanakya's ideas.

I also find the discussion of genetics irrelevant. Does Irfan Pathan have Indian or Pakistani features ? Does Danish Kaneria have 100% Pakistani features ? Does Shoaib Akhtar look unmistakably Pakistani ? Does ShahRukh Khan look like a pure Peshawari ?

There is NO way to tell. North Indians and Pakistanis look very very similar. Look at Maulana Fazlur Rahman. He could pass off as any Indian. Look at Swami Jayendra Saraswathi : You know like if he wears green robes, and like grows a beard, he will look like a Sufi saint from Lahore !

Stick to the genetics thread with this. That was the purpose wasnt it?

Irfan Pathan looks VERY Indian. In fact that is what Indian Pathans look like - heavily dravidianized. Shahid Afridi, Younis Khan also Pathans, but from Pakistan look completely different to Irfan Pathan.

You're missing the point also. You can find isolated instances of more Pakistani looking Indians, and more Indian looking Pakistanis, but ON AVERAGE, Pakistanis will look more "Aryan" than Indians. This is logical and obvious if you think about it. The evidence from physical anthropology is presented in the genetics thread if you look at it.

[roadrunner]

Re: split discussion regarding history - pakistan and india

@ssingh

vedic religion came from you???…prove it. back it. Besides, this argument was started by some one who wanted to prove his difference from neighbours. not the other way round. and good that you are surviving on the tukrays thrown by arabs

If you read the Rig Veda, you will find proof that the Vedic religion came from the Vedic Aryans that inhabited Pakistan, and this religion was completely different to modern Hinduism.

[Promiscuous_Paki]

Re: split discussion regarding history - pakistan and india

@ssingh

Besides, i dont think even all indians from north west part of india look like you guys. Rajasthanis dont. May be some people from gujrat and punjab do look like people from eastern part of pakistan.

Well I've met Rajasthanis and some do but not a lot of them.. I'm part Rajput and I've met lots of Pakistani and East-Punjabi Rajputs but Rajasthani Rajputs are definately more Dravidian... I guess that's because not all Rajputs are of the same origin.

[Promiscuous_Paki]

Re: split discussion regarding history - pakistan and india

@infiniti

I'll start by admitting that personally I feel that Pakistanis on average are better looking than Indians regardless of whatever race they belong to, whether it's Aryan or IndoAryan.

At least you have some sense in you.. :D

[roadrunner]

Re: An educational thread on the differences between Pakistanis and neighbouring populi

@VK2006

Pakistan had to be created for a community which burnt bridges, they had no nation to fall back upon in 1947 unlike the British who had colonies all over the world but did not burn bridges and went back. A chunk was created based on what a stupid requirement..religion, which propagates intolerance as I have seen after reading so many posts about religion. One way it was a blessing in disguise, otherwise whole continent would have been a hell for the whole world. Now hell does exist but is localised.

Tell me one country in which muslims haven’t created a mess !!.

Before 1930, what was the name of the land in which you or your ancestors were born ? You don’t have to do a search on wikipedia.!!

My dear friend, nobody is gonna give two anal hoots to your new theories about this Indian-subcontinent. There are some pakis who have invented a new term Pak-Indo subcontinent…clear indication that even after 5 decades these guys are still suffering from an identity crisis. Keep chasing this mirage.!!

The Muslim countries are at war some of them. But all Hindu countries have managed to pee off their neighbours. India, Nepal, the pair have been at war with someone, and both have large insurgencies in them.

Before 1947, the land of Pakistan was known as Saptha Sindhu, India, this was then stolen by modern day India, and as you are doing now, they have used it as an excuse to claim all of Pakistan’s history, because they have none of their own, except for being subservient to whiter people. Who stands to gain by sharing history? India gets the glories of Aryan and Dravidian Pakistani civilizations, Pakistan gets associated with white man foot worshippers. Just great.

[Abhiman]

Re: split discussion regarding history - pakistan and india

@roadrunner

If you read the Rig Veda, you will find proof that the Vedic religion came from the Vedic Aryans that inhabited Pakistan, and this religion was completely different to modern Hinduism.

Well I don't think you have read the first post of this thread (which was my reply to you in another thread). I've already answered this point and the point of what you claim as "stolen history".

[roadrunner]

Re: split discussion regarding history - pakistan and india

PP answered it harshly, but alright

[roadrunner]

Re: An educational thread on the differences between Pakistanis and neighbouring popu

@Abhiman

They refered to all the people living on that side of the Sindhu as Hindus (a geographic parameter has to be given). The ancestors of that region would be ours, since their literature, language and culture has been passed to us.

They would not be your genetic ancestors. They would not be related to you or look like you. It only means that you follow their culture and philosophy. The definition of an ancestor is someone that you are related to or descended from, of which Indians are not descended from the Vedic people of ancient Pakistan. So, no, they’re not your ancestors.

Indra is a god worshipped in India, Agni and Prithvi are names of missiles, besides being worshipped in India in the same way they were 3000 years ago (by a purohit who chants mantras from the Vedas).

Yes, and you’ve missed the point. They’re not your genetic ancestors.

Anyway, today’s political map of Pakistan is not an indication of any “claim” or disclaim. Just as Pakistan’s national tongue, Urdu, comes from India, India’s mother of all languages i.e. Sanskrit, its sacred text i.e. RigVeda, comes from the territory which is today called the political area of Pakistan.

Urdu actually is not an historical achievement, Sanskrit, which was developed in Pakistan is. Urdu is a simplified version of Sanskrit that was (Urdu) developed in India. But Sanskrit was way ahead of its time when it was developed by Panini in Pakistan.

I guess like if the region of Kurukshetra was made to fall in modern Pakistan by the British official (Radcliffe I think) who was drawing boundaries just before partition, you may have said that Mahabharata is not a Hindu epic, but a Pakistani one !

Mahabharrata is most definitely a Hindu epic. Nothing to do with Pakistan. Pakistan’s only claim is on the Vedas, Pakistan was where the Vedic Aryans came to after all. Mahabharrata was developed by the Dravidians in the Gangetic plains of India. So no, Pakistan has no claim on the Mahabharrata and if you read the Mahabharrata you will find it is hostile towards Pakistan/Arrata.

Persians/Mughals did not confer the term Hindu merely to those people who lived on the banks of the Sindhu, they extended it to all those living well inside India during their conquest to refer to All the people who had that particular way of life different from their own.

So because the Persians conferred it, it means it must be true because they are whiter than you? lol. Persians are IRRELEVANT when it comes to subcontinent history. The people who coined the term “India” and Hindu" were the people of Saptha Sindhu, who were the Vedic Aryans of Pakistan. They called their country, Saptha Sindhu, and this is from where India and Hindu comes from. The Ganges was NOT a part of Saptha Sindhu. So, the copyright infringement of my beloved non Muslim ancestors has been broken by a people with no history.

Its etymology finally ended when the British called all those living in the entire Indian subcontinent as Indians. “Hindu” was just a label given to us by Persians and Mughals.

Hindu is derived from the Rig Veda. It comes from the Vedic Aryans who called themselves the people of Sindhu. Oddly enough the name is still retained in the place “sindh” in Pakistan. Once again, get this light skinned worshipping out of your head. You are not light skinnedd. When a Persian or a Mughal (who also arent white) says jump, you say how high

That does not change the fact that the Vedas and Vedic Sanskrit have always been, are still and will be our holiest sacredmost canonical texts. So what if they were composed in the territory that is in today’s political map of Pakistan ?

There’s nothing wrong with you following our ancient customs. Just dont try to go and pilfer our history.

I’ve also seen claims something like Sanskrit is a Pakistani language because Panini lived in an area that falls in Pakistan. Yoga is a Pakistani art because RigVed mentions it first and RigVeds was written in an area that falls in Pakistan.

If that’s true about Yoga, then yes it is a Pakistani art. Panini was also an ancient Pakistani and not Indian.

Modern Egyptians do not have any cultural links with the Egyptian civilization. Similarly, Pakistanis do not have any cultural links to RigVedic peoples.

Culturally, neither is India linked with the beef eating Vedic Aryans of Pakistan. But I agree culturally, Pakistan has changed, but they are still the ancestors of Pakistan.

Anyway, the Vedas do mention Ganges, Himalayas, and many other geographical entities in India. However I’ll discuss it later on.

The Vedas mentions the Ganges as part of the country, Parsii, a different country to the Aryan people of the Vedas.

[Promiscuous_Paki]

Re: split discussion regarding history - pakistan and india

RR bro

Pakistan Zindabad, Jai Saptha-Sindhu, Pakistan Paindabad

We need more people like you in Pakistan so that we can reclaim our stolen heritage back from our neighbour.. Poor Indians are having such a hard time getting over the “Pan-Indian” brainwashing they got from their Pundits..

[ssingh]

Re: An educational thread on the differences between Pakistanis and neighbouring popu

@roadrunner

.
Mahabharrata is most definitely a Hindu epic. Nothing to do with Pakistan. Pakistan’s only claim is on the Vedas, Pakistan was where the Vedic Aryans came to after all. Mahabharrata was developed by the Dravidians in the Gangetic plains of India. So no, Pakistan has no claim on the Mahabharrata and if you read the Mahabharrata you will find it is hostile towards Pakistan/Arrata.

atharva veda, sama veda and shukla yajur veda was developed by dravidians.

So because the Persians conferred it, it means it must be true because they are whiter than you? lol. Persians are IRRELEVANT when it comes to subcontinent history. The people who coined the term “India” and Hindu" were the people of Saptha Sindhu, who were the Vedic Aryans of Pakistan. They called their country, Saptha Sindhu, and this is from where India and Hindu comes from. The Ganges was NOT a part of Saptha Sindhu. So, the copyright infringement of my beloved non Muslim ancestors has been broken by a people with no history.

Hindu is derived from the Rig Veda. It comes from the Vedic Aryans who called themselves the people of Sindhu. Oddly enough the name is still retained in the place “sindh” in Pakistan. Once again, get this light skinned worshipping out of your head. You are not light skinnedd. When a Persian or a Mughal (who also arent white) says jump, you say how high

There’s nothing wrong with you following our ancient customs. Just dont try to go and pilfer our history.

If that’s true about Yoga, then yes it is a Pakistani art. Panini was also an ancient Pakistani and not Indian.

there was no pakistan at that time.

Culturally, neither is India linked with the beef eating Vedic Aryans of Pakistan.

for this i have already given quote from rig veda which negates this

The Vedas mentions the Ganges as part of the country, Parsii, a different country to the Aryan people of the Vedas.

link for this. You guys say all this and cleverly ignore that this whole aryan invasion, aryans coming to this land only implies that harappa and mohenjadaro civilizations would be that one of dravidians. after all who are aryans?..people who came from central asia and pushed dravidians down south.

[ssingh]

Re: An educational thread on the differences between Pakistanis and neighbouring populi

@roadrunner

Before 1947, the land of Pakistan was known as Saptha Sindhu, India, this was then stolen by modern day India, and as you are doing now, they have used it as an excuse to claim all of Pakistan’s history, because they have none of their own, except for being subservient to whiter people. Who stands to gain by sharing history? India gets the glories of Aryan and Dravidian Pakistani civilizations, Pakistan gets associated with white man foot worshippers. Just great.

If pakistan gets associated like that, then it is not our fault. You can claim to your dravidian and aryan history as well. Nobody is preventing you from doing that. and one more thing, the more aryan you claim, the more foreignner you become. aryans are the one came from central asia or so. dont forget.

[infiniti]

Re: split discussion regarding history - pakistan and india

@-Promiscuous Paki-

At least you have some sense in you.. :D

I do, but I feel sorry for you that you could not take up the challenge of proving that India came into existence only since 1947. So much for your ramblings on minorities and nationalities and languages and ancient Indian heritage :).

[ssingh]

Re: split discussion regarding history - pakistan and india

@roadrunner

If you read the Rig Veda, you will find proof that the Vedic religion came from the Vedic Aryans that inhabited Pakistan, and this religion was completely different to modern Hinduism.

The main gods of rig veda are indra and agni. Both are still worshipped in india. More so agni. Rig veda speaks against eating beef and many still dont in india.

[ssingh]

Re: split discussion regarding history - pakistan and india

and rig veda mentions 33 gods, those gods are revered in india. if not all, some of them definitely.