Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
Uh, and same goes for Adam. I’m talking about non-first humans on this planet type births.
And I don’t know if she was made from his “side” literally. I think there is some debate about that. I think God was pretty intelligent to create females out of the same stuff that he created males.
Hey. It actually says that in the Quran!
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
Obviously it was a miracle. My point though is that Islam has no other reason why this prophet should be born different than other prophets. In having a virgin birth, it sort of makes Jesus (in a non-Muslim's eyes), just a little more special than the prophet Muhammad. I would for instance have rather expected the prophet Muhammad to be born of a virgin because he was the last prophet which dictated the Alpha and Omega of scriptures, the Qur'an, according to Islam.
No, you said that Islam has NO reason for why this birth is special. Muslims do revere this birth and the miracle, and God has dedicated an entire chapter on Mary and Jesus in the Quran. That's more coverage than what any other prophet gets in the Quran.
This whole "who was more special - Jesus, Moses, or Muhammed" is so silly. I bet these Prophets are probably laughing every time they here this nonsense come out of someone's mouth. Its not about who is more imporatant or special. They all are. And each brought with them their own miracles because God was working thru them. To say one was better than the other is to insult God. "Oh hey God, you made this one really cool - the others...not so much".
If you read the Prophets' stories, you'll find loads of miracles. Solomen could talk to animals, and he managed to bag Queen Sheba as a wife. Now those are two incredible miracles. Muhammed received the Quran as revelation - doesn't sound like a miracle, but it sure is a miracle to me when an Angel can communicate directly with a human being. That too in some small little cave out in the middle of nowhere. Its a miracle that someone who can't read or write managed to begin one of the world's biggest social revolutions/experiments which is Islam. Its a miracle to me that Noah managed to survive through the flood and managed to save some animals too. Its a miracle to me how Adam and Eve were created, and how they had kids, and their kids intermarried, and this incest didn't produce retarded kids.
Its not a miracle to me when someone tells me - yeah, you were born with sin. Its purely illogical, and unfair. Why should someone else's sin be my sin? That's why I like Islam. Its so much more egalitarian.
What's ironic is that people say Islam is so barbaric and backwards. But to me, telling me that I'm born innocent and with a clean slate, and that I'm responsible for my own sins after I can start logically thinking and acting on my own, and that even though I do commit sin, its okay, there is the chance for forgiveness and wiping the slate clean...that's freedom baby. Ironically, the religion that doesn't give you this freedom predominates in the "land of the free". And the religion that does give you freedom is the one that is labelled as a backwards barbaric religion in this same country.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
Sorry, armughal, I was wrong and wrote before thinking. (SOME Christians believe as I mentioned that a fertilised egg was created in Mary. It is not the Biblical teaching though.)
It doesn’t really matter though because, according to the Bible, the lineage of the mothers does not count in the issue:
So God created man a sinful creature? Maybe according to the Qur’an but not according to the Bible. Before eating ot the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad, man was innocent as innocent can be. It needed an outside source to entice them to commit sin.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
See my post 23. I am sorry for my mistake. 
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
Bagging Sheba as wife a miracle? Sheba being Solomen’s wife? Could you please give me the quote from the Qur’an?
Whoa, what anger! It is this same country that are enabling you and your family to have a wonderful life and education and freedom of religion.
Anyway, the acceptance of Jesus as Saviour is your choice and his saving grace is FREE for all that wants it. Your choice.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
So if one is teachable/pliable and earnest/good etc there is no reason for why God wouldnt guide him, correct? This is close to the Islamic model too, but then the guidance is effectively guaranteed if your not on the wrong track yourself, correct?
By the way may I ask what denomination you belong to, and whether this is the dominant way of thought.
My question hinges around the presumption of exogenous guidance (i.e. you cannot yourself change your beliefs, only God can inspire a change). If that is the case then there is no point because God is choosing who’s beliefs He changes and (according to some folks) there is nothing you can do about it.
This is a very hard notion for me to grasp. You yourself said that Christianity is a logical religion, explain to me the logicality of this belief. In which court of law is one person held accountable for another’s actions? In fact, it would be regarded as racist, as has been the actions of many a people in history who persecuted another people for the crimes (whether true or false) of their ancestors.
Can you define Sin for me, what is Sin? My understanding of Sin is an act that is an infraction against religious law. Adam and Eve clearly infracted against God’s words, but can you explain at what point a baby/foetus (wherever life begins) commits a sin?
When I say original sin I mean as defined and explained by Christianity. Judaism to my understanding, like Islam, has the story of Adam and Eve living in innocence in Paradise and eating of the forbidden fruit, and incurring God’s wrath. The Genesis story has God cursing Adam to farming and Eve to have painful labour and they wont eat the forbidden fruit again. However, neither Judaism nor Islam has the belief that a baby is a sinner, and that everyone is by default a sinner.
Here are some references:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Original_Sin.html
http://www.convert.org/differ.htm
http://atheism.about.com/od/thebible/a/originalsin.htm
http://www.outreachjudaism.org/original.htm
http://experts.about.com/q/Orthodox-Judaism-952/Original-Sin.htm
I may be wrong though, in that case can you give me some references to jewish sources (not Christian sites/articles/references proving basis for Original Sin in talmud/genesis/old testament) that teach Original Sin as taught by Christianity (with the full notion that man is by default a sinner no matter what hes done in life).
These are only from the new testament correct? Paul I believe is the first exposition of the doctrine of the need to atone Adam’s sin through blood.
Why? Even if we accept that it is Just to condemn mankind generation after generation to go to hell for one man’s sins is it Just for God to overrule that judgement based on something He does (not something man does to redeem himself)? If it is out of Compassion, then is His Compassion bound to only come into effect when He gets himself killed? As I said, even if we admit the idea that there is a Sin inherent in all of us that needs to be washed off, why must that sin be cancelled in that specific way?
Do you agree that there have been hundreds, thousands, millions of people crucified and dying cruel deaths, often for causes they believe in, often in service of God/Allah? Why was their blood not enough?
And what of the people who predated this crucifixion, and thus died tainted by this sin. Is their Original Sin forgiven posthumously. If so, isnt that unfair to the rest of us. If not, isnt it unfair to them?
That wasnt my question. Suppose (for now) that a whole host of the people across various church denominations accept Jesus as their saviour. Some of them are gay and lesbian for example, and while believing in Jesus as their Saviour commit homosexuality. What would be a differing Church’s view of their status, would they a) Reject that they truly believe in Jesus b) Regard their paradise bound because they accept Jesus as Saviour c) Regard them as Hellbound
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
OldMan, the bible also says this (Eziekel 18), it does not get anymore clearer than this that no father or son is responsible for each others deeds:
**1 The word of the LORD came to me: **
**2 “What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel: **
**” ‘The fathers eat sour grapes, **
**and the children’s teeth are set on edge’? **
**3 "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. **
**4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son—both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die. **
**5 "Suppose there is a righteous man **
**who does what is just and right. **
**6 He does not eat at the mountain shrines **
**or look to the idols of the house of Israel. **
**He does not defile his neighbor’s wife **
**or lie with a woman during her period. **
**7 He does not oppress anyone, **
**but returns what he took in pledge for a loan. **
**He does not commit robbery **
**but gives his food to the hungry **
**and provides clothing for the naked. **
**8 He does not lend at usury **
or take excessive interest. **a](Ezekiel 18 NIV - The One Who Sins Will Die - The word of - Bible Gateway)] **
**He withholds his hand from doing wrong **
**and judges fairly between man and man. **
**9 He follows my decrees **
**and faithfully keeps my laws. **
**That man is righteous; **
**he will surely live, **
declares the Sovereign LORD. 10 "Suppose he has a violent son, who sheds blood or does any of these other things **b](Ezekiel 18 NIV - The One Who Sins Will Die - The word of - Bible Gateway)] **
**11 (though the father has done none of them): **
**"He eats at the mountain shrines. **
**He defiles his neighbor’s wife. **
**12 He oppresses the poor and needy. **
**He commits robbery. **
**He does not return what he took in pledge. **
**He looks to the idols. **
**He does detestable things. **
**13 He lends at usury and takes excessive interest. **
**Will such a man live? He will not! Because he has done all these detestable things, he will surely be put to death and his blood will be on his own head. **
**14 "But suppose this son has a son who sees all the sins his father commits, and though he sees them, he does not do such things: **
**15 "He does not eat at the mountain shrines **
**or look to the idols of the house of Israel. **
**He does not defile his neighbor’s wife. **
**16 He does not oppress anyone **
**or require a pledge for a loan. **
**He does not commit robbery **
**but gives his food to the hungry **
and provides clothing for the naked. 17 He withholds his hand from sin **c](Ezekiel 18 NIV - The One Who Sins Will Die - The word of - Bible Gateway)] **
**and takes no usury or excessive interest. **
**He keeps my laws and follows my decrees. **
**He will not die for his father’s sin; he will surely live. **
**18 But his father will die for his own sin, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was wrong among his people. **
**19 "Yet you ask, ‘Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. **
**20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him. **
**21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. **
**22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. **
**23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? **
**24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die. **
**25 "Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? **
**26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. **
**27 But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. **
**28 Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die. **
**29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Are my ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 30 "Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. **
**31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? **
32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
[quote]
/Obviously it was a miracle. My point though is that Islam has no other reason why this prophet should be born different than other prophets. In having a virgin birth, it sort of makes Jesus (in a non-Muslim's eyes), just a little more special than the prophet Muhammad. I would for instance have rather expected the prophet Muhammad to be born of a virgin because he was the last prophet which dictated the Alpha and Omega of scriptures, the Qur'an, according to Islam.
[quote]
/You don't understand the concept old man before MOHAMMAD all the prophets were given miracles like moses was given different miracles,jesus was born with virgin mother and joesaph was beautiful and still people didn't obey them or believe them and at last they ended up in praying the prophet itself instead of praying GOD.The biggest miracle of PROPHET MOHAMMAD was that he was given no miracle accept he was perfect in every way.the reason is that he was the LAST PROPHET and his teachings are guide lines till the end of this world.
Now ISLAM is the most fastest growing religion in islam.:)
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
The Old Man the miracle of Jesus and the belief that he died on the cross, the virgin birht are limited for a particular time.
But the Quran is the eternal miracle of Prophet, People only convert readint the Quran and Priests have done this coz the fear of Allaah had crept into them.
Well for a non-muslim, it makes things special then even Adam also is a special things well last time i had questioned u, there is other character in the Bible who was born of virgin birth and gave life to death am I right.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
Correct.
I am a disciple of Jesus Christ with a leaning towards Charismatic. I presently are not a member of a church or denomination.
It actually is both. You have to make a choice but it depends on God whether He will accept you. He might for instance know that you might mean well, but are not earnest in your desire, He might know that you can’t keep your resolution, etc.
Whenever salvation is discussed in the New Testament, one find a two-fold action required: e.g. God knocks on the door (your heart), you open the door, etc.
Everyone is held liable for his own actions only. ALL of mankind, having a sinful nature, sin though and are therefor guilty. There are NO person that can state s/he has NEVER EVER sinned. Remember that one can sin unknowingly as well.
Sin is the not performing as how God Almighty would like you to perform in any situation. The moment God’s commands are written as a set of rules and regulations to be kept, mankind will try and cicumvent it and find loopholes. That’s why Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law but taught:
Matt.5v19-28 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments…You heard that it is said…‘Do not murder..’. But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgement…anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell…. Jesus clearly explained how serious and difficult it is to live without any sin.
Take for instance the Islamic view on interest. Now I know the taking of interest is not permitted by the Qur’an. But it is circumvented by “words” calling it “capital growth/profit”. There is NOTHING different in the way an Islamic Bank structures a “loan” relative to a non-Islamic Bank. In both cases the house will belong to the bank who can take it back if the “loan” is not paid. In both cases the amount is the same as well as the monthly payment. It is only words. Every non-Muslim look at the situation and see it for what it is.
In South Africa the growth of a insurance policy/annuity is taxable while mony paid on a loan not. Some while back some business people went to insurance brokers and ask them for a loan. The loan only to be paid out after 10 years but they will be paying the loan off in the meantime at the same rate. The final amount and the monthly installments worked out the same whether the transaction was a policy/annuity or loan. It was merelyy a play on words. The government was furious and had to change the tax laws to block the “loophole”.
With God there are no loopholes. If an Islamic scholar tells you it is OK to watch movies and he is mistaken, you could have sinned in the eyes of God. Now tell me who has never ever sinned according to above definition as per Jesus and the Bible?
You don’t understand. It is not the sinning but the being infected by a sinful nature. Being infected, you carry the possibility to sin in you whatever you do or whenever you become responsible for your own actions.
One get’s what one wants on the internet. Your first reference makes a gross mistake in stating that the Baptist and Assembly-of-God denominations do not teach original sin. Why should I take the rest of the article as being true? ALL Christian denominations teach that original sin came into the world by Adam’s action. You are not born with sin but with a sinful nature. ALL has this tendency to transgress God’s will.
As per this link gives a somewhat more balanced view as can be seen. Some Jews believe in original sin, others not. Lately Judaism is also aflicted (similar to Christianity) with humanistic teachings.
Let’s look what the Bible (Jewish Old Testament) say on the issue:
It was actually Jesus and not Paul that taught that his sacrifice is required to save mankind.
Ask god Almighty. That is what he decreed and teach in the Old as well as the New Testament.
Because they all were sinners.
None of the above. The sins they committed because of their sinful nature makes them guilty same as us. Jesus’ atonement was also for them. They also had the opportunity then to ask God for repentence and a new heart.
If they commit serious sin such as homosequality after being reborn, they will have backslid and will be condemned again as before. They might not get a second chance.
It is not up to any church but up to what God’s view is.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
And again I answer you: none. If you do know I would be interested in the quotation.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
Oldman, waiting for a response to post #27
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
Whoa, what anger! It is this same country that are enabling you and your family to have a wonderful life and education and freedom of religion.
Anyway, the acceptance of Jesus as Saviour is your choice and his saving grace is FREE for all that wants it. Your choice.
Don't get me wrong, I am a full throttle American. But its no secret that Islam isn't all that positively viewed in America, and there is still a great deal of confusion about it. And what kills me is that your bible belt Christians who don't afford much freedom to humans by their theories are the ones that are trying to shove their "democracy" down everyone's throats and these are the people that want to "free up" muslim countries. I can't imagine why they value freedom when their religion doesn't allow them to.
And Jesus is not saving anyone. To think that God put us all on this Earth and its that simple that He would take one of his prophet's lives and then say "If you believe in this guy being my son, you're all able to get into heaven" is ridiculous. There is no challenge then. There is no real reward for doing good and believing. And he's not God's son. To attribute a son to God is like attributing partners to God. Or saying there is more than one God. Then you're not a monotheist, you're a polytheist.
No its not anger. Its pure annoyance. This whole "Oh Jesus loves us all" crap is ridiculous.
Uh yeah, that's the Queen Sheba story. If you missed my humor there, then I apologize for saying something that totally went above your head.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
I find it highly illogical that a people who are quick to vocalize the belief that they "do not make distinctions between the prophets" and "it is shirk to worship any other then one God", do follow the words and actions of one prophet as if they were the words and directives of God himself. Just as Christians do with Jesus, but they don't pretend there isn't prophet bias or that Jesus' words (as reported as reported, just as in hadith) are the words and directives of God.
btw, Old Man has given hours of his time and scores of posts to explain his views and even though probably thought so, has shown the respect to not label others' beliefs as crap. You ought to show him the same respect, particularly since his explanations of the Son of God concept and original sin have gone over your head.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
No, it's not. Rather, if the belief is that those who were closest to God, and who pleased God the most, were the Prophets, then it only makes sense to emulate them, especially if the stated goal is to please God.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
Not them, *him.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
Shrugs...whatever...doesn't defeat the point.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
It most certainly addresses the vocalization by Muslims that they "do not make distinctions between the prophets".
How many of the 5 pillars of Islam are dictated by the words and actions of Jesus?
How many Muslim men groom themselves the way Moses did?
How many Muslim women dress as according to the traditions of Noah?
Do many Muslims want to implement sharia law as per Job?
Are the companions of David held in high esteem and labelled the best of all Muslims?
Was it Soloman who was given the title Rasul-Allah?
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
Hold on. Muslims DO make distinctions between prophets. But they shouldn’t. So, really ISLAM doesn’t say one is more important than the other - its not like there is a competition for power.
Seminole - your above questions don’t have anything to do with the topic. Why don’t muslim men groom themselves the way Moses did? Who cares? If you think grooming yourself is all about what “believing” is about, then you’re off like the milions of other dogamtics in the world. And yes, that includes a chock full of muslims. :k:
So, don’t worry. My issue is not with Old Man himself or anyone else. Its with this dogmatic belief that really equates to "I’m better than you, and you can acknowledge that by buying into what I claim to be the “Truth” ". For some that means putting on a hijab, and for some it means selling yourself to Jesus as God.
Re: Spinoff from Interfaith Dialogue - Salvation and the nature of Sin
Hardly. We follow Muhammad (pbuh) because it's his traditions we subscribe to. In terms of creating a hierarchy of Prophets, not our role.
The Prophet (pbuh) himself very much adored Abraham (pbuh) as our patriarch, and this is reflected in our prayers. So we, his followers, are wise enough to know not to interfere with the love the Prophets had for each other.
As far as we're concerned, we have no interest in debauching any of their memory...believe David (pbuh) was guilty of adultery if you wish...we don't. Believe that Solomon was just some wise king if you like...we don't. In this regard, we have no interest in becoming as the Christians and Jews are.
Fine, we're unique in how we associate ourselves to Muhammad (pbuh)...but then, we're probably unique in the reverence we give to all the Prophets. Bar none.
We follow Muhammad (pbuh), but understand he was a part of an impeccable community of Prophets...above the Muslim Ummah, not a part of it exactly.