Soth Asian in UK

Why gap is widening between Indian and Pakistani/Bangladeshi ?
Story is almost same in USA,though there has not been any comprehenseive study as this one.

Any explanation??

UK Indians prosper, but one-third remain poor: Study

LONDON: In an apparent karmic conundrum few have been able to solve so far, Britain’s 1.3 million Indians are newly revealed to be doing better than all other community groups, but still remaining poorer than the white mainstream population.

In other words, the Hindujas, Mittals and Swraj Pauls cannot hide the community’s undeserved real poverty at the bottom end.

“An astonishing 75 per cent of the Indians are in full-time education by the time they are 18 years old,” sociologist Lucinda Platt, author of a landmark new study told Times News Network. “That compares very favourably with the general British population, just 42 per cent of which is in full-time education by age 18”.

And yet, said Platt, “one-third of all British Indians are in poverty, compared to less than a quarter of the general population”.

Wednesday’s revelations are contained in Parallel Lives, an eponymous book published on Wednesday by the campaigning Child Poverty Action Group (CPAG).

The book, which looks at poverty levels and its causes across the British population, is described as the first comprehensive survey of the problem.

South Asian immigrant groups feature heavily in the study, with Indians shown to be doing three times as well as Pakistanis and Bangladeshis in terms of education, employment and general well-being.

But Platt insisted, “Indians are just not doing as well as they should do given their incredibly high levels of education and skills. There is a glass ceiling effect even in this community which has so many success stories at the top”.

Platt’s book, which is expected to be studied carefully by the British government, reveals the stark differences among South Asian groups.

Three times as many Pakistani and Bangladeshi children are dirt poor, compared to the population as a whole.

Platt said that her year-long appraisal of the situation indicated that Britain’s under-achieving Pakistani and Bangladeshis were now lagging far behind almost every other community.

It is not a pretty picture and adds to the piteous, existing image of poverty and financial exclusion within the two communities.

Unlike the Indians, these two groups have already been found to be twice as likely not to have a bank account than the rest of the population.

But Platt is careful to explain that discrimination, racism and demographic issues such as the number of children in a family had disadvantaged ethnic groups, such as the Pakistanis.

Analysts said that the book, which has a foreword by Indian academic Bhikhu Parekh, underlined a grim truth, namely that the commonly-used term ‘Asian’ for people from the Indian sub-continent covered many key differences.

The argument is likely to find some favour within sections of the Indian community, which has recently begun to campaign for separate categorisation rather than being lumped as ‘Asian’ with Pakistanis and Bangladeshis.

But sociologists, such as Platt, caution that Indians are very ‘Asian’, at least in terms of being poorer than the white population.

“In Britain today the chances of being poor vary enormously according to your ethnic group,” CPAG’s Ashley Riley told Times News Network. “Black and Asian people are generally poorer than white, but within those groups as well, Indians are better off than say, Bangladeshis”.

At present, said Platt, the remarkably well-qualified Indian community had poverty levels similar to the much less literate Black Caribbean.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow?artid=35181522

AQ bhai,

I have few friends in London and was surprised to find his observations. He is also of the view that Indians dominate and excel in UK compared to bangladeshi's or pakistani's.

Even, religion wise, Muslims from India do much better than the Muslims from the neighbours ? I just cannot understand why? Is it the class of the people ? or the mindset of the community and country. Maybe Indians being more diverse and open to change, adapt & thrive better than our neighbours.

Also, I think society has a great role to play. Any one can correct me if I am wrong, My assumption is a religious person (for eg. a moulvi ) will get more respect than a scientist in pakistan and bangladesh, where as in India, Scientists and engineers are highly regarded.

I think i may have a reason for this.The asian communities in Britain do not have the same work ethic as white Brits do.

This is in no way a bad thing,as a good percentage of whites in Britain are just plain lazy.Where the asians differ,is the family unit.Asian families will always work within the family business,from a very young age,you will find them working alongside their parents,in the family business.

The one third that looks like it is on the poverty level,may contain many young men,who would normaly be seen in Britain as breadwinners but because they are working for the family business,it may seem that they are not employed,when they are indeed working for the good of the family.

So the father,statisticaly,would show up as being well off and his sons and daughters may be seen as unemployed,because they might say they are looking for work.

I hope i have made this understandable,my feelings personaly are that this is good business tactics,by asian families,keeping their wealth in the family.Whereas white British families,the sons and daughters try to leave the family unit as early as possible and set up on their own.

You have to go one or two generations back Where each sub groups B.D. Pakistani,Indian (bharti) are coming from

Bangladeshi mostly unskilled labourer with ofcourse few exceptions who have NO JOBS in B.D. otherwise

Mirpuri & most of Pakistani same story agian few exceptions of professionals coming from Colleges of Pakistan or North African countries or S.Africa Middle East ec.

There havebeen feqwer labourers coming from India AFTER 47 so technically most of Indentured lanbourers that British shipped to kenya S.Africa,Trinidad,Surinam,West Indies …were100 yrs ago & not after Independence

After seperating the descendents from college educated (no matter from where )with those mostly blue colar Brad ford & Birmingham,mills area IT WILL BECOME CLEAR THAT INDIANS THAT DO GOOD ARE THESAME FAMILIES THAT WOULD DO GOOD IN INDIA TOO .

But that is not to say hat Academics is the only road to sucees .I still feel even without academically univ education B.D. & Pakistani childrenin the west are very sharp & sophisticated there for e the mIgration has been a good things for themJUST DONT COMPARE ALL BRITISH INDIA SUBJECTS with one scale .Each has its strength ,the stidious sincere ,obedient Bangladeshi ,the flambouyant & free spirited M<ir Puri Pakistani & sober nerdy Indians fromall over comonwealth Honkong to Surinam :k: :k: :k: Pakistani -B.D.- Bharti :kiss:

I don't know any statistics on this, but I have the general impression that Indian Muslims have not done as well as other Indians. In fact, Pakistanis in general when you compare them to Indian Muslims, seem to have done better, both in the UK and the US. I could be wrong tho.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Victory: *
AQ bhai,

I have few friends in London and was surprised to find his observations. He is also of the view that Indians dominate and excel in UK compared to bangladeshi's or pakistani's.

Even, religion wise, Muslims from India do much better than the Muslims from the neighbours ? I just cannot understand why? Is it the class of the people ? or the mindset of the community and country. Maybe Indians being more diverse and open to change, adapt & thrive better than our neighbours.

Also, I think society has a great role to play. Any one can correct me if I am wrong, My assumption is a religious person (for eg. a moulvi ) will get more respect than a scientist in pakistan and bangladesh, where as in India, Scientists and engineers are highly regarded.
[/QUOTE]

I am not sure either Victory. I think it may be due to the importance that many Indians give to education. I mean looking back, I know about quite a few Indian families that scraped and saved to send their children to quite expensive private high schools schools. During college I would rarely see Pakistanis, to the point that I generalized all desis as Indians, grad school same story. Indians pursue lucrative professions such as Medicine, Law, Business etc. I think Pakistanis tend to lay less emphasis on education and the careers they pursue end up being less lucrative. Again. we're talking about communities here so I had to make obvious generalizations.

In my personal experience I have seen Indians and Pakistanis do equivalently well if their backgrounds are similar. Even comparing myself with my family background, I think I have matched my Indian counterparts with similar background. I lived in NYC for a while, saw many Pakistanis as cab-drivers, gass station/convenience store clerks and the like. I am not blaming or judging them for their professions but if they have children, they will not be as pro-active ensuring their kids attend college, compared to say children of physicians. A lot depends on the family situation, along with the general orientation of the group.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by RajputFury: *

I am not sure either Victory. I think it may be due to the importance that many Indians give to education. I mean looking back, I know about quite a few Indian families that scraped and saved to send their children to quite expensive private high schools schools. During college I would rarely see Pakistanis, to the point that I generalized all desis as Indians, grad school same story. Indians pursue lucrative professions such as Medicine, Law, Business etc. I think Pakistanis tend to lay less emphasis on education and the careers they pursue end up being less lucrative. Again. we're talking about communities here so I had to make obvious generalizations.

In my personal experience I have seen Indians and Pakistanis do equivalently well if their backgrounds are similar. Even comparing myself with my family background, I think I have matched my Indian counterparts with similar background. I lived in NYC for a while, saw many Pakistanis as cab-drivers, gass station/convenience store clerks and the like. I am not blaming or judging them for their professions but if they have children, they will not be as pro-active ensuring their kids attend college, compared to say children of physicians. A lot depends on the family situation, along with the general orientation of the group.
[/QUOTE]

Agreed .
Infect from my experience also Indian Hindu family will try to do everything that they can do to give their kids good education but its not that intense among Muslims(both Indian or Pakistani).I would think Indian Muslim and Pakistani muslim families will have same attitude barring few exceptions.

I think religion also has some role to play.Muslims families tend to be more oriented towards business due to historical reasons as Religion does recommend it.We know Prophet PBUH was himself a businessman and its considered a sunnah.So if your forefathers are in business you are also more likely to go towards that.

Coming back to respect a Maulvi will get in muslim society compared to a scientist or Engineer.I am not sure about that.May be he does may be he doest but definitly a Maulvi in a Muslim community gets more respect than a Pandit does in Hindu community.

YOU ARE RIGHT !!!

BUT THEY HAVE DONE BETTER THAN WAS EXPECTED!

After Pakistan the helpless ,headless & at he mercy of haegonamous antagonistic adversorial majority ,Jinnah just about threw the indian muslims away as SACRIFICIAL LAMB on the alter of new nation Pakistan.

Like a gambler he said better somthing than maybe lot more ..meaning all of India shared.

"Doing good "by Indian muslims is harder to measure b/c tendency of even high school drop out from Pakistan is to go to U.K. Or if more qualified to U.S.A. generalisingly soeaking .NOT MANY INDIAN MUSLIM EVEN THOSE THAT ARE MORE EDUCATED ARE KEEN ON GOING OUTSIDE INDIA PERMANENTLY .

However i know many college educated professionals had already struggled so hard to achieve that education they say "If i did not go to pakistan which might have made my life easier now having become somthing why not SHOW THAT WE CAN MAKE IT DESPITE ADVERSARY & ANTAGONISM .."as if making a statement :k:

If a Pakistani professional compares himself to Indian muslim remember Indian muslims has had MUCH STIFFER COMPETITION getting into professional colleges than PROTECTED within own community competition of Pakistani Muslims :smooth:

If you compare economic meagerness of Indian muslims it is true Indian muslims are by & large POOR just as minority in Bangladesh or Pakistan .Even old wealth can last only so much but slowly Muslims are being squeezed by such incidents as Gujjuriots ,Babri ,Kashmir ,Mumbai riots of 92 …endlessly

Whats your thaught about it ?? :confused: :confused:

:(. U r so right NB.

Old wealth can only last so much, and with the tendency of Indian muslims to breed as per Islamic guidance and in many areas take on more than one wife, the situations for the younger generation are worsened. Indian Muslims are poorer compared to Indian Hindus, but not as poor as the adhivashis, so we are still better off than part of their own religion.

About the stiffer competition as compared to Pakistani counterpart, I agree that the Indian Muslim to some level does have to face the quota system restrictions and esp. in some now volatile areas, the fear of a hindu majority. However, in nearly all the states, higher educational priviledges are on merit basis, and everyone competes for these equally. In recent times I have not read of too many cases of religious discrimination when its comes to educational opportunities in India. I'm sure it occurs, but on a nominal scale.

Yes, equal work opportunities are being denied increasingly nowadays, that much is there. But the presence of multi-nationals and their equal opportunity laws is somewhat of a damper on ultra-religious fundos, so there is still hope.

I really don't think the younger generation of Indian Muslims is trying to make a statement that they can succeed inspite of adversity. In fact, in my experience, quite the opposite. They are not that much concerned with Pakistan, and are comfortable being who they are and staying where they are. Of course, my personal experience has been mostly in the Southern states, there could be feelings of regret that Indian Muslims from the North have for not migrating to Pakistan, but I am not aware of it. Those reminising about pre-partition days may be in Lucknow and Agra side, but Kashmiris have a different view of the whole thing by now.

Yes, this is true that not many Indian Muslims are keen on emigrating to the west. At most they will not mind venturing out to the Middle East, but that too only for a short span. I think it is the broadly-spread familial fold that they simply can't do without. Also, while they may feel frustrated with the system within India, they will still prefer to stay there and keep working at it. It doesn't come across as lack of confidence to me, but a bit of over-confidence that everything will work out. Plus, they are so used to it that they are lethargic to explore opportunities in other countries... the rest of the world does not excite them that much. They are pretty insular I guess.

Lastly, I don't think anyone ever expected anything of Indian Muslims, that's why it seems they are doing better than expected. Abroad, they have been a largely neglected crowd that has worked diligently to stabilize itself and keep the same community feeling as "back home". No one really bothers about them much, and they've made use of this opportunity but still not to the extent that they should have. Again, the lethargy is self-evident.. they stick with the same one thing until the end.

Just my personal impressions.

This reply is to Naqshbandi regarding opportunities for Muslims in India.

Every state in India has minority run institutesa and they can admit whoever they want. If they wan to admit only muslims they can do so also.

I guess in recent years admission is done thru entrance examinations where evaluation is done thru computers and candidate is only known by "Registraion Number". So nobody can be descriminated based on religion.

Richest Indian at present is a Muslim Azim Premji. (However almost all top managers and employees of his company WIPRO are hindus and other non-muslims). Indian muslims long time gave importance to education thru establishing Aligarh Muslim university. Muslims in Indian city of Hyderabad benefited immensely from software industry growth there.

Based on my experience muslims in India can do better educationally than muslims in say Pakistan and Bangladesh.

Let me give example of my Karnataka which is my home state in India. it has about 6 million population of muslims (12% of total population). I have given a partial list of professional colleges (Engineering, medical, dental etc) run by Islamic socieities in one state.

  1. Al-Ameen Institute of Information technology, Bijapore
  2. Anjuman Engineering Institute, Bhatkal
  3. Ghousia college of Engineering, Ramnagar
  4. Hazrat Khwaja Khuthubuddin Bakthiar College of Engineering, Bangalore
  5. Islamaiah Institute of Technology, Bangalore
  6. Khwaja Banda Nawaz College of Engineering,Gulbarga
  7. Malik Sandal Institute of Art and Architecture, Bijapur
  8. AL-BADAR Dental College and Hospital, Gulbarga
  9. Al-Ameen Dental College, Bijapur 10.Al-Ameen Medical College, Bijapur 11.Farooqia Dental College, Mysore 12.Yenopoya Dental College, Mangalore 13.Yenepoya Medical College, Mangalore

You can get more info about these colleges on the web.

Sorry for the long post. I thought instead of saying 'many' institutes I can name few.

Rifak, r u from the Gol Gumbaz area?

No.. originally from Mangalore in Coastal Karnataka.

I dont know it is a Good idea. But in my state local governments have "Quota" system. Something like Affirmative action in USA. As per this the current president of local government is a Muslim Lady. (there are 18 elected members out of which only 3 were muslims). As per law only a lady with minority community could become president and she was the only candidate.

Incidentally Member of parliament is also a muslim. He got elected from a constituency which had 87% Hindus.

Sorry to stray out of the subject again. I am tired of few Pakistanis bashing how India is subjugating muslims etc etc.. Whatever happened in Gujarat is revenge by majority community. So please dont generalize.

I am tired of few Pakistanis bashing how India is subjugating muslims etc etc.. Whatever happened in Gujarat is revenge by majority community. So please dont generalize.

Rifak :k: U r not alone. However, Karnataka government is also not representative of the rest of the nation. Like you said, what happened in Gujurat was because of Modi-minded buffoons, and if any of the other state governments catch on then it will be time to get worried, not until then.

Ana, this is all the sectarian minded folks on gs were hoping for. They wanted the violence. Go and read threads by 2bnot or sommat. But the reality is...nothing happened! No mass conflagrations of violence across other states.

Thomas friedman actually wrote a piece on it in the times. I will research it and post it up.

Modi should have been cracked down on by the government instead of being mollycoddled by Vajpayee and Co. This guy is a representative of Indian parliament for God's sake.

Absolutely agreed X-treme. This guy fomented the violence through his inaction and actions. It is shameful as an Indian to see he still exists. Sectarian politics is a hard issdue to deal with with representative democracies. The change has to begin from the local entity not from the federal level. That is a wrong precedence in the governance structure of coalition led parliament democracies. The national government can ask him to step down..but cannot remove him.

The point still stands..in a country with 180 million muslims...the violence as reprehensible as it was..was local to gujarat. Even one death be it muslim or hindu is despicable, I am glad that it did not spread to other parts of the country as many of the wishers of such horror would have liked to see. Just to validate their hatred. Be they hindu or muslim.

CH, I remember to have read something by Friedman on the riots, but post it anyway, thanks.

Xtreme, no that's not right. Modi was mollycoddled, yes, tragic, detestable and nauseating. But he is not representative of the entire Indian government.

A coz of mine stayed at Advani's place when she was doing her practical exams with one of that family's progeny. The ultimate hindu extremists, yet they took care of all her dietary needs, and no they didn't kill her for being muslim. All these people are like that.

Politics is not at all religion.. it is only use of religion, at the right place, at the right time. Half the time these politicians don't even believe whatever they're spewing. It's all a game. Money, power, prestige... it's just a dirty game.

You really think CH that the change has to come from the local entity? I don't think that can be achieved realistically without federal hand on their head. It works both ways. Coalition-led governments are a joke.

But yeah u r right, the fact that violence sould have spread like wildfire to other areas but did not, no one wants to talk about that. Still, it in no way mitigates what happened in Gujrat.

I am not talking grass roots here. By local I mean state entity, local parties, influencers, industry, etc. Khair..it was a sad episode and I am sure Indians around the world were deeply saddened and ashamed, muslims, hindus, sikhs and christians alike. But we have to build on the lessons learned and move on. I am hoping that those who want this violence to happen again to validate their shortcomings would see how fooligh they look. Rifak had a point.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ana: *
:(. U r so right NB.

Old wealth can only last so much, and with the tendency of Indian muslims to breed as per Islamic guidance and in many areas take on more than one wife, the situations for the younger generation are worsened. Indian Muslims are poorer compared to Indian Hindus, but not as poor as the adhivashis, so we are still better off than part of their own religion.

About the stiffer competition as compared to Pakistani counterpart, I agree that the Indian Muslim to some level does have to face the quota system restrictions and esp. in some now volatile areas, the fear of a hindu majority. However, in nearly all the states, higher educational priviledges are on merit basis, and everyone competes for these equally. In recent times I have not read of too many cases of religious discrimination when its comes to educational opportunities in India. I'm sure it occurs, but on a nominal scale.

Yes, equal work opportunities are being denied increasingly nowadays, that much is there. But the presence of multi-nationals and their equal opportunity laws is somewhat of a damper on ultra-religious fundos, so there is still hope.

I really don't think the younger generation of Indian Muslims is trying to make a statement that they can succeed inspite of adversity. In fact, in my experience, quite the opposite. They are not that much concerned with Pakistan, and are comfortable being who they are and staying where they are. Of course, my personal experience has been mostly in the Southern states, there could be feelings of regret that Indian Muslims from the North have for not migrating to Pakistan, but I am not aware of it. Those reminising about pre-partition days may be in Lucknow and Agra side, but Kashmiris have a different view of the whole thing by now.

Yes, this is true that not many Indian Muslims are keen on emigrating to the west. At most they will not mind venturing out to the Middle East, but that too only for a short span. I think it is the broadly-spread familial fold that they simply can't do without. Also, while they may feel frustrated with the system within India, they will still prefer to stay there and keep working at it. It doesn't come across as lack of confidence to me, but a bit of over-confidence that everything will work out. Plus, they are so used to it that they are lethargic to explore opportunities in other countries... the rest of the world does not excite them that much. They are pretty insular I guess.

Lastly, I don't think anyone ever expected anything of Indian Muslims, that's why it seems they are doing better than expected. Abroad, they have been a largely neglected crowd that has worked diligently to stabilize itself and keep the same community feeling as "back home". No one really bothers about them much, and they've made use of this opportunity but still not to the extent that they should have. Again, the lethargy is self-evident.. they stick with the same one thing until the end.

Just my personal impressions.
[/QUOTE]

Ana

My experience is NOT that much Diff.than yours.I must tell you about A.iM & AFMI.These nri muslim organizationCares about Muslim students .

AFMI is american fedration of muslim from INDIA (Michigan)and AIM is Associatio of Indian mUslims (Maryland)

If nothing once a year hey hook up with major states like Karnataka w.Bengal ,Maharashtra ,U.P. Bihar .....in cooperation with each state muslim organization they hold prize diastribution ceremony for highest scoring muslim boy & gorls in Sce Icse or 10+2 passing students each year & give them money medals Encouragement etc.Its low key affair does not get much national or international attention but its better that way .

There is news Paper that givesIndiabnmUsl;ims view

Milli Gazette .Com......Its by pay but you can sample an old copy to get an idea .

You can help individually by planning aheadn of winter by 6 months to year ypou can send all your ill fuitting jackets sweaters by sea mailwhich cost much less and makes it worth while .It may take 6 mobnths to deliver but its better than nothing .The kind of winter its been having ,itr defenitely help all poor including muslims .

Your dollar is worth 50 in India & 60 in Pakistan .Still it can mean one month tution fee for a girl or boy .

Send your zakat money ONLY to India ...thee might be many who would want that but its your responsibility to look for most beedy Most close to you .

there many ways you can help even staying here !!!!