Soth Asian in UK

Arts & Culture Culture, Arts, Literature & Linguistics
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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by RIFAK: *
This reply is to Naqshbandi regarding opportunities for Muslims in India.

Every state in India has minority run institutesa and they can admit whoever they want. If they wan to admit only muslims they can do so also.

I guess in recent years admission is done thru entrance examinations where evaluation is done thru computers and candidate is only known by "Registraion Number". So nobody can be descriminated based on religion.

Richest Indian at present is a Muslim Azim Premji. (However almost all top managers and employees of his company WIPRO are hindus and other non-muslims). Indian muslims long time gave importance to education thru establishing Aligarh Muslim university. Muslims in Indian city of Hyderabad benefited immensely from software industry growth there.

Based on my experience muslims in India can do better educationally than muslims in say Pakistan and Bangladesh.

Let me give example of my Karnataka which is my home state in India. it has about 6 million population of muslims (12% of total population). I have given a partial list of professional colleges (Engineering, medical, dental etc) run by Islamic socieities in one state.

  1. Al-Ameen Institute of Information technology, Bijapore
  2. Anjuman Engineering Institute, Bhatkal
  3. Ghousia college of Engineering, Ramnagar
  4. Hazrat Khwaja Khuthubuddin Bakthiar College of Engineering, Bangalore
  5. Islamaiah Institute of Technology, Bangalore
  6. Khwaja Banda Nawaz College of Engineering,Gulbarga
  7. Malik Sandal Institute of Art and Architecture, Bijapur
  8. AL-BADAR Dental College and Hospital, Gulbarga
  9. Al-Ameen Dental College, Bijapur 10.Al-Ameen Medical College, Bijapur 11.Farooqia Dental College, Mysore 12.Yenopoya Dental College, Mangalore 13.Yenepoya Medical College, Mangalore

You can get more info about these colleges on the web.

Sorry for the long post. I thought instead of saying 'many' institutes I can name few.
[/QUOTE]

Rifak

That i am aware of ,thses are Private purely run either by capitation fees by students or may be Muslim philonthrophic funds like Waqf board or zakat or whatever .......

I dont lessen there importance & I congratulate Karnataka govt for not posing hurdles in there running recognition affiliations credentialling etc.

Muslim students all over india & may be from all over world avail of these colleges .

But when we studied we did not spend 4-5 lakhs capitation for Indian or 30-50 lakhs for foreign students.But still it is good to have for muslims who make Riyal or Dinar /Darham in mid east & money is not a consideration.

I know sometime back muslim students were competetively coached for IIT National AIIMS medical collegeadmission test IAS IFS IPS GRE ,GMAT etc .but again it was in Aligarh & Delhi areas.

May be these are for ambitious students but i have seen when muslims compete for administrative examination they do achieve good % in IAS & much more in STATE Public service commission.Many muslim girls have competed for WbCS & vaiious banking competetive exam.

Teaching is god job for muslim women .At least in W.Bengal where muslims are no less than 20-25 millions out of 70 millions Urdu is 2 nd to Bengali .My sister opened a girls school for all muslim girls by Education budget of W.Bengal govt.

Even in IIT is not difficult for muslims .I know many who passed & in college right now in Kharagpur IIT .

Its fruitless to compare with Pakistan .Neither indian muslims can be compared to Pakistani or India itsellf which is 7-10 times more in different indexes.

Pakistani may on surface see very few muslims coming tp USA or U.K when there priorities are completely opposite of Pakistanis .Indian muslims particular ,except for higher education M.S. or P.HD., do not see the need to come here specially with job situation getting worse day by day .

If they want money thay go to mid east make a nest egg buy a house or condo in city raise & educate 2nd generation hopefully giving more to there kids than they themselves had to do without .

So this comparision of Indian Muslim vs Pakistanis is moot .

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by andha_qanoon: *
Agreed .
Infect from my experience also Indian Hindu family will try to do everything that they can do to give their kids good education but its not that intense among Muslims(both Indian or Pakistani).I would think Indian Muslim and Pakistani muslim families will have same attitude barring few exceptions.

I think religion also has some role to play.Muslims families tend to be more oriented towards business due to historical reasons as Religion does recommend it.We know Prophet PBUH was himself a businessman and its considered a sunnah.So if your forefathers are in business you are also more likely to go towards that.

Coming back to respect a Maulvi will get in muslim society compared to a scientist or Engineer.I am not sure about that.May be he does may be he doest but definitly a Maulvi in a Muslim community gets more respect than a Pandit does in Hindu community.
[/QUOTE]

AQ, I can agree with what you said except for business part, I am not entirely sure of how much more Pakistanis are business oriented. I mean the best know Pakistani business community (Memons) originates from Gujerat and it is my understanding that Gujeratis are quite business inclined both Hindu or Muslim. I certainly can agree that you may have seen many Muslims in business but I believe that it is due to the lack of options available to them rather than the religious argument. I mean, taking an example of a blue collar worker migrating from Pakistan will have limited opportunities for employment (lucrative employment) so he is more likely to take on menial jobs and save enough to open up a business, that could atleast give him the possibility of accumalating SOME wealth. Although the cycle continues because that uneducated (atleast by US standards) will be less able to further his kids in education and kids will be inclined to follow what is by now the family business. Ofcourse there are always exceptions but having educated parents goes a lot more than you may think.

AQ, I am not entirely sure how the Moulvi comes into play? I mean he may be well respected but most Pakistani parents and children don't see that as a career. I mean talking an example of a good family friend, the person is highly religious and knowledgable, does missionary work 2 months of the year but works for AT&T for the rest of the year. I think you may be misconstruing respect with career choice, because I am sure that most Pakistani parents would love to see their children be highly qualified scientists or the like, rather the issue become HOW MUCH they can aid their kids in that goal, therein lies the subtle difference between the Indians/Pakistanis.

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NB, thank u so much for the guidance. :)

What u say makes a lot of sense. But zakat should be sent to whoever needs it and if a closer person to you needs zakat more than someone 10000 miles away, I usually give to the person in front of me. Does not matter who it is.

Yes, you are right about the donations to get into colleges in India. Nowadays they have increased the fees sooooo much, and mostly people who are indian residents fare better at getting seats. For NRIs it is as if they want just millionaires, which is why so many NRIs send their kids to US or Uk because it turns out cheaper. Khair. Muslims have it particularly harder because in the Middle East, if they want to send their kids for higher education in India itself, they have to send the kids to the local Indian School to learn hindi, thus cutting down chances of learning Arabic which should be required but even now isn't, and then they have to save and scrouge for the donations back home. So even while living in a muslim country, they have to be in the Indian mindset in order for their kids to get adjusted back home. For non-muslim indians, it is easier because since they don't have any religious obligations or feelings for their host country, they just save, send their kids to Indian School without any qualms because Hindi is anyway their mather bhasha so they have to know it otherwise how will they learn Sanskirt. So they don't have much to lose, and that's why NRI non-muslims are able to save more and go back to India and integrate back more easily, than Indian muslims living in the mid-east. But now everyone has understood these difficulties with the first generation of failures and experiments coming out of the desert oasis, so they are not repeating the mistakes with the next generations, which is good. But that in turn makes the new kids more nationalistic, and hence more bigoted, than the older NRI muslim crowd.

For Pakistanis living in the middle east it is easier to get ahead becaus that country is the same religion as most of them, they learn Arabic as well as urdu at their local Pakistani schools, and hence they are able to go back to Pakistan after SSLC and get into Agha Khan Medical relatively easily as compared to their Indian counterpart.

I think I've just jumbled it all for you, mebbe u won't understand. Nevermind. :(

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Ana

I get it all right

You are saying for Indianmuslims it is more complicated than muslims from Pakistan.Quiet Correct :k:

First even though Indian muslims who stayed Inside India have easier time living THAN when they have tasted the freedom & muslimyaat for free & majority muslims as inMid east .After that it becomes very hard for there children or themselves to go back to India with riots Sanghi parivar movements hostile environment all around .

I never meant to say Indianmuslims problem are solved but comsiidering the RUT i which Jinnah and hisTNT put them into they have accommodated by bending backwards as much as they can

There is no easy ansewer to so many questions of future.If b/c of war economy of oil is affected every body will have to come back unemployed.Competitive seats in India are hard for muslims both for mid east as well as indegenous are very few .for just hundred seats threre might be 35-50 thousands students vying .There are too many people in Asia as whole & competion in India academically is neck breaking.

But i think high schools are there in mid east for expatriates & if early education of deenyaat islamiyaat is done they can go to india for +2 or professional donation colleges.or I.T. colleges

But i agree it is tougher for Indianmuslims than any one else logistically if not being equally tough for all muslims in all other ways .:frusty:

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If one stops thinking of themself as muslim first and thinks of themself as Indian half the problems would go away. People in Pakistan need to stop worrying about Indians, muslim or otherwise and start worrying about the muslims there.

I was watching the new foreign miniter of Pak on an interview with Wolf Blitzer this morning. At every question regarding Al-Qaeda, Iraq, Nk nuclear proliferation his answer invloved India. Al-qaeda presence in Pakistan..the answer involved Kashmir. NKorea..involved Canad and India. Daniel Pearl involved Gujarat. It was hilarious. I was begining to think whether he was a minority whip in the Lok Sabha railing against the ruling coalition rather than a foreign minister of another country. :hehe:

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CH, it is easy to say. You try being Indian first and anything else later. That type of thinking requires a education and awareness-building, something which sectarian politics does not allow much time for. And in the end, even from all that development, what does one get? Bigotry in yet other areas. It's a part of human nature. It will not subside.

But Indian Muslims do think of themselves as both, Indian and muslim. You can have shared identities and do equal justice to both, it's not impossible. This is what the rest of India, esp. those people harping on "indian first" need to understand. Just like you can be a daughter and a sister and a mother all at the same time, so can you be an Indian and a Muslim. It's not inconceivable. Other people just have to accept it.

27

There cannot be equal loyalties if both entities have a governance practices. THere can be coexistence if one is spiritual and the the other is governance and cultural. But whenever religion goes beyond spirituality, it is wrong.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ana: *
CH, it is easy to say. You try being Indian first and anything else later. That type of thinking requires a education and awareness-building, something which sectarian politics does not allow much time for. And in the end, even from all that development, what does one get? Bigotry in yet other areas. It's a part of human nature. It will not subside.

But Indian Muslims do think of themselves as both, Indian and muslim. You can have shared identities and do equal justice to both, it's not impossible. This is what the rest of India, esp. those people harping on "indian first" need to understand. Just like you can be a daughter and a sister and a mother all at the same time, so can you be an Indian and a Muslim. It's not inconceivable. Other people just have to accept it.
[/QUOTE]

it does not require any education it is fact that they are indians first
no indian muslim claim to be arabs or indonesians.

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Ha ha :rotfl: :rotfl:

He was funny.

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People from Indian subcontinent went to UK as blue collar workers. After II world war UK needed unskilled/semi-skilled workers to work in their industries (mainly textile). Most of the immigrants in the subsequent years came as their dependents again not many of them skilled. Therefore they may not be as rich as Britishers.

Whereas in USA immigration was strictly on education and merit. Indians took more than 50% of the visa for Skilled professionals, So their median income is more than americans.

Another thing is people in this subcontinent are not homogeneous. Different groups/castes/ethinicity whatever you call it has different strengths and weeknesses. Certain muslim groups in Gujarat (such as Kutchi, momin) are very good businessman and wherever they settled they made it big. Sindhis settled in HongKong and african countries and they are also pretty rich. I think it is in their blood.

It also depends on which ethnic group from our subcontinent is majority there. If they are evry enterprising in India or Pakistan they are most likely to succeed in foreign country also.

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RIFAK :cool:

Thats what impression you will get from reading news Papers .

There might be total 1 million indian immigrants in USA, that is including the families.that is maybe 400 thousnds newly married or bachelors with wife & few children.

Average income is almost poverty line here & yes most indians in times of economic boom will have job paying more than that ,but can be unemployed in a day like after Dot.Com bust in 2000 & 9/11 tragedy economic slump.

If success is measured only with Indian criteria then more indians ill be considered so ..but unfortunately all ethnicities dont want to become Doc Engineers or Own Motel… :hehe:

Some are accountant, bankers or brokers …:rolleyes:

Whatever it is ALL most of all immigrant Indian or Pakistani families have sharp & intelligent children who are most well prepard for futre than any one else in the world …with or without engineering or doctor degree :nahnah: