Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu
Lots of change in just three months… but then again we saw that happening even during the course of this very thread
PS: If i were to ‘find’ it…i could’ve done a few pages back…
PS2: You said you were out…
Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu
If something makes sense…it can take only a minute to change. Three months to phir bhi kaafi vaqt hai.
Itni mehnat ki…to socha javab deti chali jaoon…
Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu
So which counter arguments do we have now, when people challenge someones arguments and/or have a different opinion?:
‘Did I hit a nerve?’
‘You are jealous’
‘desi nazis’
I am sure I am missing some more.
Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu
Good…The fact that is being missed is that the loss of cultural heritage is inevitable, because the culture of each generation is different and less connected to a far away land and language.
sure, lets go over it..
They meant Asians as in people from the asian continent, usually in US that is more far east and not Asian in UK which refers to desis. There is no ‘fact’ that there are 'no third or fourth generations" from other countries yet.
[quote=“diwana, post:42, topic:250698”]
2- Their criteria to define death of language based on preference to answer in English is also very loose criteria. (Page 454). The language does not die even if someone says he/she cannot communicate ‘very well’. First question.. It simply means it is weak, not dead.[/quoye]
agreed…weak, dying, not dead.
Their offsprings will be even weaker normally..and thus the point that with each generation
Great point…and inability to read or write is a step towards the loss of language…
I think they know how to sample better than you. I work in extremely data intensive, sample research based business. A good sample is very telling. your confidence level goes up with a larger population but a good sample gives you enough insights.
Because the focus was on the loss of language in 3rd and 4th generation. Typically if there is no 3rd or fourth generation, there are no ways t interview them.
Does not matter, a good sample is good enough. These people do this for a living and are good at it.
It seems?…right then. I will not argue on what it ‘seems’ to you..
They may have different metrics, but there is no study that indicates that heritage culture and language is not lost with each generation. If there is a study that indicates it stays the same 100% in 3rd gen then I am all ears, but every study will show you a significant level of loss.
You may ‘think’ that but it is not a fact so irrelevant. The gentleman leading the study has social research on many other topics. The fact that this research findings counter the huntington research is not a basis of this research. Huntington claimed that in areas which are very high in hispanic immigrant populations, english will become less used and spanish will become prevalent. In an extreme example that will happen….the larger group or an extremely large minority can have an impact, growth of Urdu in many Pakistani areas is one example. However where both studies actually align is that it is a group dynamics result over a period of time where a large group will impact a smaller group, or if there are 2 very large groups there will be an impact.
Appreciate your effort to read, however when there is a lack of knowledge then objections come up which have less to do with the study but the reader’s lack of knowledge whether it is about use of sampling, or definition of asian.
I would love to see stats on the Punjabi in Canada number you had been showing. Also if there are studies that show that 100% 3rd and 4th gen immigrants speak/read/write their heritage language.
…and from a previous post
Not sure about that being a fact, if the immigrants are smaller in numbers and marrying locals a lot then that can hold true. Larger groups which dont marry out may have different results. One example of this is Italian Americans in NYC where while food is still heavily influenced by old country, the language is not there and majority speak english.
Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu
Specious nonsense all around. Well done to the person who said this thread has served its purpose.
Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu
answer below..
Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu
I think its a great topic, why does heritage language or culture fade, is it normal.
Obviously tangents and point scoring happened with some people, but that is just to be ignored.
What I like about Diwana is that at least with me, we counter each others’ points in a mutually respecting discussion approach, with some humor thrown in because we understand each others’ style well. I think he is the only person I have told to just bring a brick and smack on my head.. 
Good topic, and something we all should really think about…is it normal, how much or what should be focus on to retain…and inevitably, what is important…are we focused on the right things. In my view linguistic-cultural-social-religious identities are related but not one and the same.
One thing that is not in this thread is the language and cultural change within Pakistan, social structure and norms and identity from both internal changes and external influence. That is an interesting topic in itself.
Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu
The evidence for language attrition is manifest in every country and region where there has been migration. Even within Pakistan, third generation migratees within provinces have little language retention, except where language is patronized/adopted by state.
That is not the point of thread IMO.
Thanks for sharing your opinion.
Anyways …back to the discussion everyone.
I actually asked about this in a previous post above but no one answered. I would imagine those of you living in Pakistan can answer it best as to how many 2nd / 3rd generation immigrants to Pakistan have maintained their original languages. Even from personal observations, it would be interesting to know.
Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu
Just the kind of thread that makes me keep on visiting this forum. Full of delightful arguments/counter arguments. A lot to learn from.
Thank you very much bradraan and hamsheergaan.
Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu
I taught myself how to read/write Urdu without any motivation or insistence from my parents (they actually did not even know) because I felt illiterate without it, I didn’t feel fully bilingual until I was able to properly read and write the language. But on top of that, I felt it would be important for my kids to know to preserve the culture, because I genuinely believe culture is a, if not the, key preserver of religion. You can’t take culture out of the religion, it’s embedded in Islam. If you detach your children from Pakistani culture, they’ll shape American culture to their religion. It’s impossible to create a cultureless Islam. For example, some people are always speaking of how we should not say Adaab or Khuda Hafiz, but the same argument emerges in English where people dissuade others from greeting each other with a “hello.”
But I’m getting the argument that it would be pointless to know how to read/write Urdu when it isn’t a part of your daily routine like X2 has been saying. By the time I have kids, the elders of the community will be those who only spoke Urdu because they had to communicate with their families and communities. My friends and I never speak to each other in Urdu, and I doubt we’ll suddenly speak it in twenty years. I find speaking, reading, and writing equally as important but it’s inevitable that the language will die in America although I wish that wasn’t the case.
Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu
I am sorry to disappoint you that world does not revolve around you and your example cannot really answer what I said earlier.
You are did not like that despite you tried to add all those desi cultural items which you preserved but still supposedly or allgedly lost your ancestral language, yet I did not accept your argument.
I was talking about immigrants. When they land in other country, first thing they adapt is clothing, dietary choices and overall look rather than language.
Language takes much loner time to disappear even in their future generations, much longer than their future generations adapt to or acquire all other cultural characteristics.
This is also happening in Pakistan and in other eastern countries, all you have to do is look around.
My question was perfectly logical based on what I wrote above.
You cannot deny that language still lasts longer than many other traits immigrants adapt to.
There is some truth to what people say and mean by ABCD (or BBCD, CBCD etc.). 
Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu
Not going to grill you much as readers can find themselves what you have been doing all along.
Just acknowledge, what I said earlier, when people try to be politically correct and go to extreme, it becomes a lie.
Hope and wish you do not pass on your confusion and flip-flop behavior to others in your control.
Change to what? Making no sense?
P.S. More comments on their way. Please bear with me. 
Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu
Cannot speak for anyone, but I can say I never denied from very beginning loss of cultural heritage including in not inevitable.
My question was to elucidate what are various reasons for it.
**More importantly, I am much more curious and (critical to) what I see is committing suicide or murder of the language long before it may die naturally.
**
(My strong question above)
I know what they meant. They clealr identified those Asians repeatedly in the article.
But they are the one who found this fact by not able to complete the generational survival curve for the Asians and only could do that for Mexicans and White Europeans. (Page 457 second para).
[quote=“X2, post:88, topic:303567”]
Agreed. I only wanted to make it clear the definition language death by them was incorrect.
Just because someone ‘prefers’ speaking English from home over the phone to a stranger does not mean his ability to speak (or even read or write) is lost.
Perhaps more information is needed what was discussed over the phone for X-number of minutes and what questions were asked.
Absolutely.
The study only gives insight. Not complete information and certainly the study needs to be done on larger populations of immigrants from all areas of country especially including a larger Hispanic population from Texas and other states where Hispanics reside. Texas has larger border adjacent to Mexico I think.
Hence I said why bring them in the context of Asians. Just focus on those who DO have 3rd or 4th generation and drop them increase the sample size of Hispanics.
Sorry, they said ‘Cohort of Southern California’ but tried to imply as if it applies to a much larger Hispanic population.
Oho! I was being nice. They said themselves they wanted to show Huntington’s hypothesis wrong. 
Yes. Already agreed. I never said it stays 100%.
I have to read Huntington’s study someday. Need to know where did he come from.
I say that as the population of a particular origin grows, it may get to a “critical mass” to not need immigrants to make the culture or language survive.
I cleared both misconceptions above.
About Punjabis in Canada, I will look it up. For other studies I agree there may not be any and I never claimed that.
Good idea for another thread.
Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu
@ X2:
I think I should stop saying “I think” and “It seems”. Since it seems you take these literally.
Hope you get a kick out of it.
Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu
OMAGAWWWWWWD!
Doing what diwana?! What am I doing here? Lying? To you? 
The creepy smiley on GS that I’ve never met or know? Are you kidding me with this? Lying to YOU about my OPINION on a matter I have every right to have an OPINION on? 
If I want to change my stance on an issue where I feel differently, tum mujhse poocho gay? Kyun? Kaun ho aur kya karlogay mera?
Apne ego ko kam karo please…you don’t seem to understand that in order to lie to you I’d have to care about what you thought…which I do not. 
Listen up -
You don’t like what I have to say and I don’t like what you have to say. End of story.
Do not try to get smart with these ridiculous little accusations. “Lying…” Wow…what a joke. Battameezi ki intiha hai.
Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu
Flip floping is a form of lying. At least one statement or position is not true between two opposites.
P.S. No need to ‘flip out’ after ‘flip flopping’. 
Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu
No - its not LYING at all. You want to accuse people of things that never happened. You should keep your hallucinations to yourself in that case.
Yes, I thought at one point I wanted to pass on a language. Now, after considering it carefully I don’t think it important at all.
THAT IS NOT LYING SMARTY PANTS.
Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu
OK. Sure. If you say so.