Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

[ButtSb]

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

whats with intermittent use of urdu sentences all of a sudden hain

[redvelvet]

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

@ButtSb

whats with intermittent use of urdu sentences all of a sudden hain

Last time I checked, the bolded word above was a Desi expression. Didn’t think that one thru did ya?"

[X2]

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

@diwana

Thanks for proving some of my positions correct.

If you believe so…sure, you are welcome.

@diwana

Now,
All you have shown is the attrition is inevitable. Fine.
To which extent? We simply do not know.
Whatever the rate of attrition would be for a given immigrant population in future, we cannot say it cannot be stopped or slowed down enough so immigrants cannot overcome attrition rate and will not be needed.
I know I wrote a long sentence, but it will make sense in reading the second time if not in first time.
Your link does not show any or whatsoever statistical data in regards to how many were called, responded accordingly and how many simply hung up not understanding the question(s).
We have to remember, the survey targeted people who are either foreign born or decedents of immigrants.
They feel threatened when questions are asked over the phone.
Many of them are just scared to even answer questions over telephone.
Moreover, a lot of immigrants just don’t feel so much interested in answering ANY question over the phone.

Hmm let me get this straight….

You go on to try and discredit the very study that I referenced which somehow “proves some of your positions”
…right then. So..should you be thanking me for not proving some of your points.

I can go in so many different directions with this post but simply dont have the time. You want to have the last word. Go ahead. For posterity sake I do want to go over this bit..because the observations noted above and quoted below, sum it all up.

@diwana

We have to remember, the survey targeted people who are either foreign born or decedents of immigrants.
They feel threatened when questions are asked over the phone.
Many of them are just scared to even answer questions over telephone.
Moreover, a lot of immigrants just don’t feel so much interested in answering ANY question over the phone.

..who should have they targeted about questions about heritage languages from other countries… if not immigrants… and/or their descendants?

PS: oh yeah you wanted stats… here you go… go crazy. http://www.popcouncil.com/pdfs/councilarticles/pdr/PDR323Rumbaut.pdf
Do tell these amateurs how to run surveys and samples

PS2: no argument that its good to try and keep cultural links going…but the rather elegant distinction I was making was that when you have a discussion between recent immigrants and 2nd or third generation individuals from the same cultural background realize that their perspectives are overwhelmingly very different. But carry on..carry on.

[taqlee]

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

I wonder why there are some urdudaans who are born/bred in pakistan and can’t speak/write and some don’t even understand urdu. Seen these people who’s parents can speaks hardcore urdu/poetry yet their children are english only. Not only do they mock the broken urdu of the “not born/bred in pakistan walay” but also those parents and their children who can speak phasto/punjabi/saraiki etc.

Seems to be superiority complex and desi language is for backward/paindoo people

Just give it some years, there will be more people residing in pakistan whom the title can be refer to, as i have seen many people who pass on their ethnic language of pakistan to next generation other then the language urdu, which seems to be getting replaced by english

One more thing its easy to criticize those who are born to a pakistani but cannot read urdu, assuming not talking about those residing in pakistan, but given that you were in their position with the circumstances and restriction on time/resources etc you might be the same , just a thought :halo:

[madz124]

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

14 pages and counting … !

**RV **- Sure, in a debate, you can refute the other side with substantial (or weak) arguments. Op had simply asked for reasons why a child of a Pakistani parent cannot read Urdu. PLENTY of reasons were given along the way, among these: Urdu reading/writing (NOT speaking) being a low priority considering limited use of it in their place of residence, lack of time and resources available to the parents, parents themselves not knowing how to read/write Urdu, parents not feeling a connection to Pakistan, Urdu being replaced by a regional language of the parent, etc.

Now unless you are on a mission to enforce your views onto others, I don’t see why this “debate” is still going on.

Unlike a classroom debate, there is no *judge *here who is going to decide which side wins. So what will it take for you all to rest your case and call it a day? Let’s take your example about abortion and apply it more appropriately to the situation at hand. Person X was raped, got pregnant, and wants to abort her baby. You and your team argue against abortion. Person X argues for abortion. You keep trying to bring in different studies you have researched and examples of families of rape victims that you have personally encountered over the years. 14 pages later, let’s break for a minute and reflect back on the purpose of the exercise.
You gave valid arguments. She gave valid arguments (you might disagree with me and not consider them valid, but hey you are not the judge and there is no winner/loser here, right?). At the end of the day, you cannot persuade people to change their ways for something they truly do not believe in. You can only present your views, which you have done and done well. What more is there to it? It’s person X’s baby and it’s her life, her decision. You might not agree with her choice, but you can’t tell her how to live her life.

Reha - I think what ButtSb was trying to say is, bhens ke aage been bajaane ka kya faayida? And that goes for both sides.

[ButtSb]

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

^ taali dono haath se bajti hai… you can’t place the entire blame for lingering on of this thread squarely on one side…

and btw… i didn’t say ‘‘bhens k aagay been’’ that would insinuate that one side is making ‘‘music to the ears’’ and the other side is a ‘‘dumb cow’’… certainly not.

I was saying what i said above… if u feel its unwarranted that someone questions your personal choice…its equally unwarranted to defend your personal choice and get angry…

[Le_Pakistan]

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

I don’t understand what the fuss is about
Like people said before, isn’t this the purpose of a debate? Allah (SWT) maaf karay this is a discussion board, so that is exactly what is going on: a healthy discussion. Nobody is beaging anyone with a hammer and forcing him to do something and nobody is being insulted or driven in a corner, so please stop acting like that! Also i did not know there are guidrlines of how many pages a thread should be. What is wrong with it being 14 pages long?

If someone disagrees with you, it does not mean they are hating you. So stop taking offence.

[madz124]

Lol did I say any rules were broken? Did I pick any sides? All I was saying is, this thread has run its course. I dont see anything new being brought to light but hey if you still have new points to discuss, by all means, be my guest.

Buttsb, bhens ke aage been bajaana doesnt mean the cow is dumb. It means the advice is falling on deaf ears.

[S02]

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

Everyone has different priorities and passions (and sometimes as we come of age, we define ourselves by distancing ourselves from the priorities and passions of the previous generation, in order to figure out who we are, as separate from our parents/families, etc), and so I think it is understandable if someone doesn’t make learning to read Urdu a priority. What I don’t understand is being opposed to learning it at all (or anything for that matter). Willful ignorance is problematic. But being focused/dedicated elsewhere is not.

[diwana]

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

@Reha

**Diwana - what you’re not getting is that your ideas…are only YOUR ideas. They are not solidly written in stone and no one has to negate them because they’re mere opinions. Your choice. Your prerogative. Twist things this way or that way…its still a choice. Not a rule. You really do need to understand that stating something doesn’t make it a fact.

****And who is going to question me? You? Really? Tell me why I’d feel the need to show my love for Urdu and who dictates how I show it. Hm? You do? Make sure you answer this. **

**I’ve been saying that repeatedly…don’t know why its not sinking in. But anyway…passing on Urdu is not important to me. And no, I am not required to answer you in a fashion you deem acceptable. You need to realize that. **

That was for the sake of example…no need to get touchy.

Reha:

Just for your information, I know exactly what you have been saying. Contradictory statements. Political statements. Trying to show somehow you love Urdu but saying yu have no interest in passing it on to your future generation.

Your actions or intention to act speak louder than you saying you love Urdu.

---

This is for everyone not just for you:

" I love mangoes. But I do not feel it is important for my children to taste mangoes. I am going to buy strawberries, blueberries, blackberries for them since I think they have no need to taste mangoes and since I am the parent of my children.

I and only I have the full right what my children should taste and hell will not break lose if my children not know the taste of mangoes, it is MY LIFE and MY PRIORITY that MY children learn what they grow up tasting. Oh, did I say I love mangoes? Yummy!"

What would anyone think about that person?

Another very strong question coming in next post.

[diwana]

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

What will people think of someone who says:

Caution: Very strong question as I said above.

“Since I know everyone is eventually going to die, and so will my mother, I think I should just kill her today.”

“Attrition of a language does appear inevitable. Should people kill the language today?”

Language here is used as Mother tongue and hence I used example of ‘mother’. Besides, mother tongue is an essential part of one’s personality.

@ X2: Read your post. Thanks for providing full article. Have read but will comment later.

[diwana]

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

@S_and_S

What makes you say this? How do “foreign looks” go first?

Big moustahe, pagRi, dhoti, shalwar, pajama, sari, gharara, bindiya, hairstyle, hair color, large sized jewelry etc. etc.

You can add sarson ka tel, chambeli ka tel, surma and kaajal to it.

Foreign looks is combination of many outward items.

Desi foreigners lose these looks, before they lose their languages.

@u_ahmed

^It’s very much wrong regardless. **Cooking/food is the last thing to go **and probably survives the generations the best.

I meant dietary discretion, eating habits etc.

Eating “jhatka” versus halal/zabiha goes long before one loses the language.

Some people start eating Non halal diet as soon as they set foot on the plane to other country.

Even hardcore Hindus start eating beef or any meat when they land on a foreign country long before they lose their respective languages.

[Krypton]

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

@S02

Everyone has different priorities and passions (and sometimes as we come of age, we define ourselves by distancing ourselves from the priorities and passions of the previous generation, in order to figure out who we are, as separate from our parents/families, etc), and so I think it is understandable if someone doesn’t make learning to read Urdu a priority. What I don’t understand is being opposed to learning it at all (or anything for that matter). Willful ignorance is problematic. But being focused/dedicated elsewhere is not.

this certainly highlights a greater underlying problem, which IMO should be addressed asap.

[S_and_S]

@diwana

@S_and_S

What makes you say this? How do “foreign looks” go first?

Big moustahe, pagRi, dhoti, shalwar, pajama, sari, gharara, bindiya, hairstyle, hair color, large sized jewelry etc. etc.

You can add sarson ka tel, chambeli ka tel, surma and kaajal to it.

Foreign looks is combination of many outward items.

Desi foreigners lose these looks, before they lose their languages.

@u_ahmed

^It’s very much wrong regardless. **Cooking/food is the last thing to go **and probably survives the generations the best.

I meant dietary discretion, eating habits etc.

Eating “jhatka” versus halal/zabiha goes long before one loses the language.

Some people start eating Non halal diet as soon as they set foot on the plane to other country.

Even hardcore Hindus start eating beef or any meat when they land on a foreign country long before they lose their respective languages.

Hmmm not in my case. I look like a desi (last time I checked my skin color was still brown), dress like a desi (love Pakistani fashion), have my natural desi hair, my husband has a dari and we eat like desis. Actually we eat like Muslims, Zabiha halal. However, we do not speak Urdu with each other. Oh and yes I wear kajal. Buy it specially from Pakistani stores here. My Nihari is killer, learned it from my dad whose an awesome cook.

There you go mixing culture and religion. Eating jhatka or halal has nothing to do with speaking Urdu. Halal/haram is not only reserved for Pakistanis.

[diwana]

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

@X2

If you believe so…**sure, you are welcome.
**

Hmm let me get this straight….

You go on to try and discredit the very study that I referenced which somehow “proves some of your positions”
…right then. So..**should you be thanking me for not proving some of your points. **

I can go in so many different directions with this post but simply dont have the time. You want to have the last word. Go ahead. For posterity sake I do want to go over this bit..because the observations noted above and quoted below, sum it all up.

..who should have they targeted about questions about heritage languages from other countries… if not immigrants… and/or their descendants?

PS: oh yeah you wanted stats… here you go… go crazy. http://www.popcouncil.com/pdfs/councilarticles/pdr/PDR323Rumbaut.pdf
Do tell these amateurs how to run surveys and samples

PS2: no argument that its good to try and keep cultural links going…but the rather elegant distinction I was making was that when you have a discussion between recent immigrants and 2nd or third generation individuals from the same cultural background realize that their perspectives are overwhelmingly very different. But carry on..carry on.

I thanked you already and you said " sure, you are welcome".

I also said thank you for proving SOME of my positions correct.

I did not refute study you brought altogether. I agreed that immigrants efforts to keep their cultural heritage alive should not be discouraged.

Now for a detail commnet on the study you quoted:

1- They wasted resources on immigrants from countries who do not have third or fourth generation to begin with (Asians). They should have known better not to even bring them up knowing this fact that besides immigrants from some European countries and Hispanics, there are no third or fourth generations from other countries yet.

2- Their criteria to define death of language based on preference to answer in English is also very loose criteria. (Page 454). The language does not die even if someone says he/she cannot communicate ‘very well’. First question.. It simply means it is weak, not dead.

3- On same page 454, second paragraph, they are correct that speaking the language lasts longer than reading and writing.

4- From people of 5 millions they show X numbers of Hispanics responded but the numbers cited in Table 1 is small and especially those who belong to generation 3.0 or greater.

5- There is a problem where they decided to merge the IIMMLA and CILS data when they had 78% of one group including those who have no 3rd generation and beyond with others who do. And yet, they separated these groups in the end when discussed the results and focised only on those who have 3rd and fourth generations.

Very interesting to read that they did not reveal why they had so low number of respondents from among millions of immigrant families.

6- Nowhere in this study they mentioned any caveat, any source of possible ambiguity or false conclusions.

It seems they tried to show their study was flawless by every means.

It is very difficult to do studies like that on immigrants and I have come across other studies perhaps one from Berkley? which used some better methods to target immigrant populations and their cultural heritage.

If I get the chance, will post.

In the end:

I think they just wanted to refute Huntington study and results and while they may or may not be right in their conclusion, the method used was wrong.

I have not read Huntington study, but it seems, that study was another extreme.

[diwana]

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

@S_and_S

What makes you say this? How do “foreign looks” go first?

@S_and_S

Hmmm not in my case. I look like a desi (last time I checked my skin color was still brown), dress like a desi (love Pakistani fashion), have my natural desi hair, my husband has a dari and we eat like desis. Actually we eat like Muslims, Zabiha halal. However, we do not speak Urdu with each other. Oh and yes I wear kajal. Buy it specially from Pakistani stores here. My Nihari is killer, learned it from my dad whose an awesome cook.

There you go mixing culture and religion. Eating jhatka or halal has nothing to do with speaking Urdu. Halal/haram is not only reserved for Pakistanis.

What langugae do you speak with each other?

What are your ancestrsl languages/mother tongues?

Most importantly:

There are a lot more desis with non-desi looks etc. but still have their language skill preserved. Can you disprove it?

[S_and_S]

@diwana

What are your ancestrsl languages/mother tongues?

Most importantly:

There are a lot more desis with non-desi looks etc. but still have their language skill preserved. Can you disprove it?

LOL You love going around in circles eh? So you dont have to bring up the wrong points that you previously made again. That requires the skill of quite an ignorant/stubborn individual. Whether it makes sense or not, you have an incessant need to pointlessly make noise at this point. You can just admit that I had a point there. It’s okay, it won’t kill you to agree. ..Should I remind you, you didn’t address the jhatka/haram/halal point which you brought up. So please tell me again, why would I stop eating halal food? It didn’t take a plane ride for me into another country to remember that I was a Muslim first. I have been living outside of Pakistan my entire life. So please do further explain. I would love to hear your side of things.

We speak fluent English. We are both children of Urdu speaking Pakistani immigrant families.

According to you:

@diwana

Most importantly:

There are a lot more desis with non-desi looks etc. but still have their language skill preserved. Can you disprove it?

Really? Really? That really makes sense to you eh? Well to answer your absolutely illogical question. No I can not as it can not be disproved through GS posts. You want me to prove there are desis that don’t look like desis? Huh? Can you prove it?

[Deeba1234]

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

WHAT does it matter to others if some parents don’t prioritise Urdu or their ‘mother tongue’..

Some of the posters in this thread are coming across like desi nazis My future kids will speak whatever languages they need and feel comfortable with.. If people feel offended by that that’s their problem not mine..

[ButtSb]

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

oh wait… look what i stumbled onto…

@Reha

I think teaching your future generations their language is important - doesn’t matter if its Urdu or any other language.

Language makes them feel closer to their roots and learning another language is a skill…they offer languages other than English in high schools so there’s obviously an advantage to it.

Kabhi Idher Kabhi Udher…

[Reha]

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

Butt…haye Allah…I am flattered to see how much attention you pay to my posts. Digging for my older posts, copying, and pasting them in this thread. I don’t think I’ve ever done for for any member so its reeeeeeeeeeeeally cute you feel that way.

But its an old post and priorities change…nothing wrong with it and I have no issue saying that. People change.

I used to really like chicken nuggets and now I find them vile. I used to like Chanel’s Chance but now it reminds me of high school so I don’t wear it anymore. I also used to really like beaded bracelets when they were huge in the 90’s…but now I wouldn’t be caught dead wearing one.

So…anything else you “stumbled” across? Hmm?