Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

[ButtSb]

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

An article in the Economist…i know its a bit long…but still much better than walls of texts including emotional rants…

HIS weekend Johnson enjoyed an American holiday in Berlin: the children’s Halloween party held by neighbours, a half-German, half-American couple. Besides mermaid tails, ladybug antennas or monster horns, nearly every one of the nippers at the party had another accessory: a second language.

Johnson’s own nipper is still pre-verbal at nearly 18 months, meaning that every request not immediately understood and satisfied may quickly turn into a piercing shriek. But we take comfort that Johnson, junior, is cognitively just fine. If his language comes a little late, that is probably because, for one thing, he is male, and for another, he is surrounded every day by three languages: English and Danish at home, and German all day at nursery. More confusingly still, the three languages are closely related: is it bread, Brot or brød? Apple, Apfelor *æ**ble? House, Haus *or hus? The earthy words in English are mostly Germanic, meaning these triplets are coming up in his world all the time.

Children raised bilingual or multilingual show similar results. In early days they will mix languages. They make errors by using the syntax of one language and the words of another. (“Touch the guitar”, my old Spanish teacher’s daughter would say, instead of “Play the guitar”.) But these problems disappear quickly. By three or four, children reliably separate the languages, knowing which can be spoken with whom. Their fluency in each would be the envy of any adult language-learner.

Many parents once believed that a second language was a bad idea, as it would interfere with developing the first and more important one. But such beliefs are woefully out of date today. Some studies (such as this one) seem to show that bilinguals have smaller vocabularies in each language (at early stages) than monolinguals do. But other studies (such as this one) find no vocabulary shortfall in either language. In any case, the influence of mono- or bilingualism on vocabulary size is later overtaken by the importance of education, socio-economic status, reading and writing habits. In short, there is little evidence that raising a child bilingual will hurt their primary language.

**The benefits, by contrast, are both strong and long-lasting. Bilingual children as young as seven months outperform monolinguals at tasks requiring “executive function”: prioritising and planning complex tasks and switching mental gears. This is probably because monitoring the use of two languages is itself an exercise in executive function. Such studies control for socio-economic status, and in fact the same beneficial effects have been shown in bilingual children of poor families. Finally, the effects appear to be lifelong: bilinguals have later onset of Alzheimer’s disease, on average, than do monolinguals.
**
All this is hot evidence for a mental exercise that could give children a lifelong advantage. Should you then run out and sign your child up for whatever language you can find? Alas, no. As the saying goes, “for whosoever hath, to him shall be given.” Multiple languages are best for you when you’ve had them from birth. The dramatic studies here work with “crib” bilinguals, children raised with both languages spoken by natives in their homes.

And even having a native speaker among the parents at home is not by itself enough. If a child is raised by one monoglot Anglophone and one bilingual in an English-speaking country, the child’s second language may atrophy if the bilingual parent isn’t strict about conducting all exchanges with the child in this language. This is the root of the “one parent, one language” theory that many bilingual families swear by. By this theory, consistency is important for the learning brain.

But one researcher on the topic, François Grosjean (who blogs here), disagrees that one-parent, one-language is a must. Instead, he says, “the need factor is crucial”—that is, the child must experience regular monolingual situations in each language. If there are no domains (school, travel, grandparents) where only one of the two languages will do, “children are very good at judging whether it is worth maintaining a language or letting it wither away.” One option he recommends is to speak only one language at home and the other outside the home. (This requires both parents to be fairly fluent in both languages, though.)

For parents who cannot make their children “crib bilinguals”, there are, of course, still many reasons to teach children foreign languages, and many benefits. Here, still, time is not on parents’ and teachers’ sides. The earlier children begin the second language, the better they will learn it. Norway has already introduced English in the first year of school, and Denmark is soon to do so. These countries, unlike France, Germany or Spain, have very small languages of their own, so they know language ability is crucial to their future competitiveness. Talk about the “need factor”.

Multilingualism: Johnson: Bringing up baby bilingual | The Economist

[CoughCough]

@Mezhgan:9869537

[quote="“muqawwee123, post:13, topic:302052"”]

ajaz’s point was not about whats happening in the country. He was pointing towards, what an average Pakistani feels and thinks. We may agree or disagree with this view.

Actually, that is exactly what he implied. If you don’t speak Urdu, you don’t have the right to comment on anything that’s happening in Pakistan. Read below:

[quote="“ajazali, post:367, topic:298799"”]

those who dont even wish to learn urdu should think twice before claiming the right of commenting on everything happens in Pakistan.
[/quote]

I’d also like to add that his comment is rather presumptuous. Speaking Urdu does not mean that you understand what an average Pakistani feels any more than a person who doesn’t. Do you suppose that a wealthy politician, living in Pakistan and who speaks Urdu, understands what the “average” Pakistani feels and thinks?
[/quote]

Uhohhh. Better stick to your roots. English doesnt seem to be your forte.

[Mezhgan]

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

^

@ajazali

you dont know urdu or any local language means you dont know what actully average Pakistani thinks and feels. so, that implies you would not know what Pakistan really is.

This is what I was referring to.

There really is no need to be rude and dictate to others what they should do or should not do.

[CoughCough]

Fyi parents:

I know talking to your children in urdu can be hard, but thats LITERALLY all you need to do for them to learn to speak it. Amazing isnt it?

Edit: also, celebrating thanksgiving is a must but preserving your mother tongue in your offspring is more effort than some are willing to exert?

Mezghan, ajazali is right. And if after this many pages you cant see it, you never will. But ya know what they say, ignorance bliss hoti hai.

[redvelvet]

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

I don’t understand it…why would you deliberately decide not to make an effort? Why would you deliberately decide to let that connection to culture diminish at an even faster rate?

It’s like you’re saying, “My grandkids and great-grandkids won’t have that same level of connection, but lemme help the “disconnection” along the way but not trying my best either. Lemme try my darndest to make sure my own children have even “less” knowledge than I had of my roots/culture to pass down to their own kids.” You can call it priority…fine; I won’t argue with you there as every decision reflects a priority. But there’s another word that applies as well and it ain’t fear…it’s apathy.

It can be argued that even fear is healthy to an extent because it motivates one to make an effort. But apathy…and you can choose to shroud apathy in words that sound more pleasing your ears …like priority, or prerogative, or open-mindedness, individual right, or you can use a more assertive and blunt phrase such as “Mind your own damn business!”…but it’s still apathy.

[redvelvet]

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

It is a given that everyone has a “right” to their beliefs during a debate.

Yes, you have a right to raise your kids the way you want. When did we ever say that we’re gonna knock your door down, barge into your homes and raise your kids for for you? Nobody is taking that right away from you. And to harp on this point is indicative of defensiveness because in EVERY debate on ANY issue…whether it’s on language, or abortion, or homosexuality, or religion, or whatever…you will ALWAYS have the “right” to your opinion and to your lifestyle. That should not stop or prevent both opposing teams from having an a strong opinion about the topic.

There are several people on here who believe teaching Urdu (spoken or written or both) is not important, however I have not interpreted their posts to be a “dictation” of how I should raise my kids, nor have I felt pressured and thus I haven’t felt the need to say, “It’s my right.” I will always have the right to my beliefs and my lifestyle regardless of the topic. That said, put forth more substantial arguments than mere “givens” that hold true for every debate.

[Reha]

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

I don’t understand it either. The fear of losing a culture…a culture someone doesn’t live in. The fear of this weakness being in our kids as if it will make them lesser human beings. That is what I want to see banished in my kids. Not knowing Urdu is a weakness (if it can be called one) I will happily deal with and help them strengthen themselves in other ways I deem more useful.

People have flaws…learning Urdu will not make someone’s kids perfect…at least not to me.

You can call it anything you want…but at the end of the day…there is no right or wrong answer to this. There just isn’t and I haven’t found a single post in this entire thread so far that has compelled me to re-think my position. Not one post gives me a solid and valid reason why I should make monumental efforts to teach my kids Urdu. I have come across other peoples’ priorities, their connection with their culture and all that. But that’s it. I don’t have that same connection and it hasn’t caused problems for me - ever. In fact, my distance at times has made me happier. Less gossip.

Its really nice to have a connection with your culture. Sure. I can see why people like it and if I wanted to be more connected to culture, there’s no end of options.

But the way I live my life and how I see myself living it…I just don’t see myself giving Urdu priority. I don’t see myself as that type of mom. I guess I have a different vision.

[Reha]

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

@redvelvet

It is a given that everyone has a “right” to their beliefs during a debate.

Yes, you have a right to raise your kids the way you want. When did we ever say that we’re gonna knock your door down, barge into your homes and raise your kids for for you? Nobody is taking that right away from you. And to harp on this point is indicative of defensiveness because in EVERY debate on ANY issue…whether it’s on language, or abortion, or homosexuality, or religion, or whatever…you will ALWAYS have the “right” to your opinion and to your lifestyle. That should not stop or prevent both opposing teams from having an a strong opinion about the topic.

There are several people on here who believe teaching Urdu (spoken or written or both) is not important, however I have not interpreted their posts to be a “dictation” of how I should raise my kids, nor have I felt pressured and thus I haven’t felt the need to say, “It’s my right.” I will always have the right regardless of the topic. That said, put forth more substantial arguments than mere “givens” that hold true for every debate.

But why do people need to have substantial arguments? That is what is confusing me. I am not asking anyone to prove WHY its important.

It does seem as if my choice is offensive to some posters and that is baffling to me. Lots of Pakistanis born and raised outside of Pakistan do not know Urdu. This isn’t a brand new concept I am introducing here. And I don’t find it offensive at all. We have a Palestinian BIL in our family - he doesn’t speak an ounce of Urdu obviously. We seem to be communicating and getting along fine…he’s not expected to know Urdu.

[redvelvet]

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

Ok if not substantial arguments, then stick to weaker ones…you’ve the right to that as well; nobody’s stopping you.

[Deeba1234]

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

@Reha

But why do people need to have substantial arguments? That is what is confusing me. I am not asking anyone to prove WHY its important.
**
It does seem as if my choice is offensive to some posters and that is baffling to me. ** Lots of Pakistanis born and raised outside of Pakistan do not know Urdu. This isn’t a brand new concept I am introducing here. And I don’t find it offensive at all. We have a Palestinian BIL in our family - he doesn’t speak an ounce of Urdu obviously. We seem to be communicating and getting along fine…he’s not expected to know Urdu.

You’re not the only one..

[Reha]

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

@redvelvet

Ok if not substantial arguments, then stick to weaker ones…you’ve the right to that as well; nobody’s stopping you.

But why the dire need to substantiate a choice? Even when I was bothering to defend myself…just for fun…I presented arguments and they were fired down as if someone else can actually refute them. I cannot agree with people who believe anyone’s choices can be challenged.

It was strange…diwana and his ominous posts thundering through this thread as if the National Society of People Who Choose to Pass on Urdu were turning in their graves.

[ButtSb]

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

But why the dire need to substantiate a choice?

you are the one to answer that… why?

[Reha]

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

I am not questioning anyone’s beliefs here…I have been answering for my own.

So its not me that has to answer that.

[ButtSb]

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

@Reha

I am not questioning anyone’s beliefs here...I have been answering for my own.

So its not me that has to answer that.

the bold part equates to =*the dire need to substantiate a choice

so…again… why?*

[redvelvet]

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

@Reha

But why the dire need to substantiate a choice? Even when I was bothering to defend myself…just for fun…I presented arguments and they were fired down as if someone else can actually refute them. I cannot agree with people who believe anyone’s choices can be challenged.

It was strange…diwana and his ominous posts thundering through this thread as if the National Society of People Who Choose to Pass on Urdu were turning in their graves.

Points made by others and I who represent the opposing team were also refuted by your side. Tum wahid to nahi ho. Why are you viewing this as a debate against us and “Reha”???

"Why do we substantiate choices? " Yaar aik debate main aur kya karte hain? That is the purpose of a debate…to defend/substantiate your choices. Outside of the debate in this virtual world, don’t you “substantiate” your choices/decisions to others or even just to yourself in real life? It could be the choice to work in one place and not the other, the choice to live here or there, the choice to pick one insurance over another, the choice to pick one product over another, the choice to reject or accept something.

“If someone can “actually refute” them.” Points can actually be refuted. Whether or not you accept the refutation or consider it to have merit is upto you. But in a debate opposing sides attempt to prove merit in their arguments and if it seems to be lacking, it’s refuted. You and others brought up points such as disconnection…and the opposing team tried to refute this point. You brought up the point of bring “global”…I didn’t see merit in that, so I refuted it. You guys don’t see merit in us believing that it doesn’t require laborious effort to teach Urdu, so you tried to refute it. The point of religion was brought up and those that didn’t agree, argued/negated it. When you brought up learning Arabic and Spanish a few threads back, the first thing I did was say how I can understand why you’ve said that…to show that I concur with you to a degree. “Fired down?” My arguments were fired down too…heck even with the use of articles by the opposing team. So? Debate entails firing down, no? It’s not an us against Reha thread.

[Reha]

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

@ButtSb

the bold part equates to =*the dire need to substantiate a choice

so…again… why?*

I don’t think you understood my post or what I said.

One more time, shall we?

There is no reason to question a choice people make. But I was and that is WHY I answered.

Why was a choice questioned? Why the dire need to substantiate someone else’s choice? As if once you hear something you like you can nod your head and say “okay, that makes sense…carry on”.

[ButtSb]

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

Why the dire need to substantiate someone else’s choice?

Why the dire need to substantiate your own choice? and answer those who questioned it??

isn’t responding to such a question as absurd as questioning a choice?

[Reha]

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

And with that - I am out.

RV - I wish I agreed with you but I have yet to see someone come in here and give me some solid reasoning telling me I’d be causing harm by not passing on Urdu.

[ButtSb]

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

@Reha

And with that - I am out.

RV - I wish I agreed with you but I have yet to see someone come in here and give me some solid reasoning telling me** I’d be causing harm by not passing on Urdu**.

interestingly nobody even trried to reason that it causes ‘harm’… so you couldn’t possibly find that a solid reasoning for that…

[redvelvet]

Re: Sorry, I am born to a Pakistani but cannot read Urdu

Look Reha, you weren’t the only one who was “questioned.” People who gave “likes” to your post and thus showed concurrence with your views were also “questioned” at the same time by the opposing team. They may not have posted…or they might have posted less frequently than you…but it wasn’t only your views that were challenged. Similarly if I post and others agree with me, and you challenge my views…it’s not just my views that are being questioned or challenged.

You said, “There is no need to question a choice people make. but I was and that is WHY I answered.” Let’s say this was a debate on abortion and you are against it. Will your stance be questioned? Yes. Will you have to back it up with reasons? Yes. That’s what you do in a debate. You question and answer and it goes back n forth. Have you not asked questions of your own in this thread? Yes, you have. Kya hum ne ya kisi ne tumhe poochne se roka hai? Nope. Tum wahid nahi ho is thread main jis k views ko question kia gaya hai, nor are you the only one to answer; everyone has been doing that.