Re: Sons of Soil and Sindhi Language
That's fine. Sindh had been so blessed to be ruled by a local Sindhi party for God knows how long, if they feel their language is not being given enough 'credit' then perhaps it's time to put those sons of soil on trial.
Re: Sons of Soil and Sindhi Language
That's fine. Sindh had been so blessed to be ruled by a local Sindhi party for God knows how long, if they feel their language is not being given enough 'credit' then perhaps it's time to put those sons of soil on trial.
Its not about PPP and its contribution towards Sindh that should determine Sindh's attachment for its language. If you think that people of Sindh owe anything to PPP or Bhutto family for the status of their language, then you are wrong.
By discrediting Sindhi means steps like below:
While Sindhi was being used as medium of instruction for around a century in Sindh, just three years after Pakistan's independence, Sindhi students of Karachi University were told that they can't use Sindhi as a medium of instruction from now? Any justification for such draconian steps in modern societies?
Wiping off Sindhi names from Sindh's railway stations
Imposing a decision during one-unit that voters lists will be in Urdu and not Sindhi (even in Sindhi majority areas)
Orders to postmen not to deliver letters having 'Sindh' written in address during one-unit
These all steps were reversed not because of PPP, but the struggle of Sindhi masses and intellectuals. We don't owe anything to PPP in this regard, so connecting PPP and referring them as son of soils is highly mistaken (when Bhutto family even can't speak proper Sindhi).
Why PPP is ruling Sindh is a political discussion and PA is the most suitable place for such debates.
Re: Sons of Soil and Sindhi Language
Why should voters' list be in Sindhi or any other language for that matter? That list is state and government's property so they should be in common language. Anything having to do with electoral process is a national issue. If you have such significant classifications in Sindhi, then that means only Sindhis are able to utilise those them. No 'outsider' can go and work in Sindhi bureaucracy because of language barriers. See my point about having rigid language rules effect employability and geographical mobility of people.
To make languages official or not is ultimately government's responsibility, PPP had been ruling Sindh for decades and had enjoyed power at the centre. It was once the single most influential party at its peak, and was called the party of federation. Now if you don't want place any sense of accountability on PPP for failing the Sindhi struggle for their mother tongue and don't want to ask why your fellow Sindhis couldn't do anything to promote your language, then exactly who are you blaming here? Punjabis?
If PPP is ruling Sindh against Sindhis wishes, how come we don't see any local 'struggle' against them? Or is it the usual ethic pride and usual xenophobia that strikes an emotional code with the locals?
Re: Sons of Soil and Sindhi Language
Why should voters' list be in Sindhi or any other language for that matter? That list is state and government's property so they should be in common language. Anything having to do with electoral process is a national issue. If you have such significant classifications in Sindhi, then that means only Sindhis are able to utilise those them. No 'outsider' can go and work in Sindhi bureaucracy because of language barriers.
To make languages official or not is ultimately government's responsibility, PPP had been ruling Sindh for decades and had enjoyed power at the centre. It was once the single most influential party at its peak, and was called the party of federation. Now if you don't want place any sense of accountability on PPP for failing the Sindhi struggle for their mother tongue and don't want to ask why your fellow Sindhis couldn't do anything to promote your language, then exactly who are you blaming here? Punjabis?
I'm blaming those who took steps like I pointed above. Voter list should be in the language that can be understood by voters themselves and in Sindhi majority area, Sindhi got this right. They fought for it. Even Sindhi girl students like Akhtar Baloch were jailed for demanding this and finally that was accepted.
I fail to understand purpose of this thread. Is it for bashing PPP or telling Sindhis that their sticking to follow their language is a foolishness? Please come up with open intention, so that you can get an answer accordingly.
PPP did make Sindhi, Sindh's official language alongwith Urdu by passing a resolution in 1972 in Sindh assembly, which was followed by linguistic riots.
PS: you probably missed those posts in this thread, which contained a detailed history and current status of Sindhi in Sindh coupled with comments by Sindhi intellectuals. After all the movements, Sindhi is in strong position in Sindh and just acknowledging it as national language alongwith other langauges of Pakistan will be symbolic recognition.
Re: Sons of Soil and Sindhi Language
Did national media cover protests against local bodies ordinance in Sindh at the start of 2013? If your sources are silent on Sindh’s issues like they have kept a mum on Balochistan issue, that doesn’t mean that Sindhis are also silent against PPP.
Re: Sons of Soil and Sindhi Language
I'm blaming those who took steps like I pointed above. Voter list should be in the language that can be understood by voters themselves and in Sindhi majority area, Sindhi got this right. They fought for it. Even Sindhi girl students like Akhtar Baloch were jailed for demanding this and finally that was accepted.
I fail to understand purpose of this thread. Is it for bashing PPP or telling Sindhis that their sticking to follow their language is a foolishness? Please come up with open intention, so that you can get an answer accordingly.
PPP did make Sindhi, Sindh's official language alongwith Urdu by passing a resolution in 1972 in Sindh assembly, which was followed by linguistic riots.
PS: you probably missed those posts in this thread, which contained a detailed history and current status of Sindhi in Sindh coupled with comments by Sindhi intellectuals. After all the movements, Sindhi is in strong position in Sindh and just acknowledging it as national language alongwith other langauges of Pakistan will be symbolic recognition.
Oh so now Sindhi is in strong position in Sindh? So this whole fuss is about some obscure 'symbolic recognition' to soothe down the egos of relentless nationalists and console their victim complex. Well good to know Sindhi is secured in Sindh, it took four threads for you to admit that. Maybe I should've put PPP on a proper blast much earlier. As far as some symbolic recognition is concerned, Pakistan has far more pressing issues to deal with and one of them being annual famine killings hundreds of children in a nuclear armed country in 21st century. Yes, one of the pressing issue is also creating more provinces which is far more likely make a direct positive contribution to people's lives than any symbolic gimmickry.
As with the intention of my thread, I thought it would be quite obvious that I'm genuinely interested to find out exactly what the dear old oh so Sindhi PPP has done for Sindhi language, since the 'so called founding father' was such an enemy of the language. Your response, I must admit is quite typical of PPP, the world just starts and end at 70s. May be I need to remind you exactly how powerful and influential PPP became after 1972. They just had a complete five year federal rule, I didn't see them fighting for any language recognition. If ethnic and language cards sell really well in Sindhi then surely PPP should've respected Sindhis struggled and continued their campaigning for greater recognition? They must get votes over evil outsiders for something. So I just wanted to see if you would put beloved sons of soil on trial for failing Sindhis or such scrutiny and blame game is only reserved for evil outsiders who probably don't stand the chance of getting ever elected in Sindh.
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*Voter list should be in the language that can be understood by voters themselves and in Sindhi majority area, Sindhi got this right. *
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And exactly why should those Sindhis not learn and understand Urdu when they claim to have no problem with this language being the national lingua franca? Classic case of not extending good education to those people, and keeping Urdu and English literacy rates systematically low.
Like I said, voters list is a state's property, those records ultimately belong to all the public. Therefore they must be the language understood by all Pakistanis and especially the official language represented by the state.
Re: Sons of Soil and Sindhi Language
I'm so glad that you got the result what you perceived. Good for you. Now take a thanda glass of water, ghussa sehat ke liye sahi nahin.
If you want to understand struggle, contributions, emotions, concern of Sindhi people for Sindhi, I can open a separate thread for that, but when you link things and come up with self perceived conclusions that Sindhis consider Quaid e Azam enemy of Sindhi language and keeping digs at PPP for not performing and linking that with Sindhi language, then lets agree to disagree for once and all on this matter.
Re: Sons of Soil and Sindhi Language
It is no academic secret that Jinnah would not have taken on the mission to creating Pakistan had Nehru agreed to British proposed Three Tier Constitution. While Jinnah agreed to united India with Three Tier Constitution demand, it was Gandhi who said it is worse than creating Pakistan. Hence the reason why Brits vehemently despised Gandhi and Congress because of their stubborn refusal to accept their Three Tier Constitution which was seen as prelude to partition.
Considering how the Irish Question was a central theme in British politics during the course of time when Jinnah was in the UK, it is indeed quite baffling how he thought East and West could remain part of a federation based in part of the country. It didn't work for UK despite centuries old effort to make it work, it wouldn't have worked for Pakistan either.
Jinnah agreed to 1946 Shimla conference resolution as well but when Nehru said that these resolutions can change in future Jinnah went against it and rest is history.
Re: Sons of Soil and Sindhi Language
Muqawee, it is very easy to solve language issue, like we did, every thing in a state should be in three languages, Regional, Urdu and English. It will resolve all such problem, like it did for us.
Re: Sons of Soil and Sindhi Language
Muqawee, it is very easy to solve language issue, like we did, every thing in a state should be in three languages, Regional, Urdu and English. It will resolve all such problem, like it did for us.
You live in a polytheistic society, we are living in monotheistic society. so see the difference. :)
Here, just talking of your own language mean you discredit / disown only one national language, whereas imposition of that language doesn't matter at all.
Re: Sons of Soil and Sindhi Language
You live in a polytheistic society, we are living in monotheistic society. so see the difference. :)
Here, just talking of your own language mean you discredit / disown only one national language, whereas imposition of that language doesn't matter at all.
But language has nothing to do with theism. In this case, Pakistanis can have Indian way of resolving this. Like you mentioned, we have voter lists in three languages everywhere so that people can see, how difficult would be this?
Re: Sons of Soil and Sindhi Language
In Pakistan language is related to theism from its initial days, hence Bengalis were termed infidels because they rejected imposition of Urdu - Language of Muslims of sub-continent. For being a patriot in Pakistan officially, you need to believe ‘Islam is our religion, Urdu is our language and Pakistan is our country’. Any other identity and your insistence on that will earn you title of ‘Traitor’.
Voter lists were in two languages in Sindh, it was Yahya Khan who excluded Sindhi from voter lists and hence a movement by Sindhi students.
@the_kaur this might be of your interest
Re: Sons of Soil and Sindhi Language
I'm so glad that you got the result what you perceived. Good for you. Now take a thanda glass of water, ghussa sehat ke liye sahi nahin.
If you want to understand struggle, contributions, emotions, concern of Sindhi people for Sindhi, I can open a separate thread for that, but when you link things and come up with self perceived conclusions that Sindhis consider Quaid e Azam enemy of Sindhi language and keeping digs at PPP for not performing and linking that with Sindhi language, then lets agree to disagree for once and all on this matter.
Muqawwee,
In Pakistan, if there's one single place where racism is a serious issues and politics of crass xenophobia sells like hot pancakes then it has to be Sindh! So clearly, there's are many different aspects to explain the long history of turbulent race relations in that particular area than stating locals' innocent attachment to their language and drawing any tenuous links. I find it incredibly amusing how you effortlessly ran a trial of Jinnah for not allowing Sindhi the status of official and called him the so called founding father (I'm genuinely interested to know which particular founding father is considered the real founding father of the country among Sindhis - it cannot be one of the Bhuttos for sure) but when the same question is asked to sons of soil and what they have done to grant Sindhi language the status Sindhis are apparently struggling for, you quickly redeemed the PPP by saying oh no Sindhi is in a strong position in the province? Then what exactly is the issue? If sons of soil are not supposed to do anything for Sindhi language despite remaining in power for decades then whose responsibility is to fix Sindh and Sindhi? Evil outsiders?
Re: Sons of Soil and Sindhi Language
Muqawee, it is very easy to solve language issue, like we did, every thing in a state should be in three languages, Regional, Urdu and English. It will resolve all such problem, like it did for us.
There's also one very important thing Pakistanis can learn from India and this is the creation of new provinces/states. I wish I could put pathetic PPP waderas on blast for 'struggling' to crave a Saraiki province out of Punjab, but hide behind stupid marsoo marsoo Sindh na desoon rhetoric when it comes to devision of Sindh. Ethnic politics is to these waderas what religious bigotry is to Mullahs - it's their oxygen and bread and butter.
Re: Sons of Soil and Sindhi Language
Muqawwee,
In Pakistan, if there's one single place where racism is a serious issues and politics of crass xenophobia sells like hot pancakes then it has to be Sindh! So clearly, there's are many different aspects to explain the long history of turbulent race relations in that particular area than stating locals' innocent attachment to their language and drawing any tenuous links. I find it incredibly amusing how you effortlessly ran a trial of Jinnah for not allowing Sindhi the status of official and called him the so called founding father (I'm genuinely interested to know which particular founding father is considered the real founding father of the country among Sindhis - it cannot be one of the Bhuttos for sure) but when the same question is asked to sons of soil and what they have done to grant Sindhi language the status Sindhis are apparently struggling for, you quickly redeemed the PPP by saying oh no Sindhi is in a strong position in the province? Then what exactly is the issue? If sons of soil are not supposed to do anything for Sindhi language despite remaining in power for decades then whose responsibility is to fix Sindh and Sindhi? Evil outsiders?
Bring me my statement about Quaid e Azam and Sindhi. I did talked about his going to visit Dhaka university and declaring Urdu as only official language, which was not taken in good spirit by Bengalis. I did tell you that one might disagree with that but like many historians I found it a wrong decision as it created sense of being disowned in Bengali community. Talk about twisting words?
For your kind information, if Sindhis are racist than all communities / ethnicties are responsible for it. Give me a justification for banning their language for use as medium of instruction in their own province just after three years of independence. Ignoring these things (which got proper documentary backing) makes you sound more racist than us Sindhis.
You know what your problem is. You think that you got all right to insult others and their language. Did you read your comment that by sticking to use mother tongue in schools, Sindhis have been denied right to good education in Urdu and English. For your information, you might got such complexes for your mother tongue, but we Sindhis don't have such complexes to disown and discredit our Mother tongue.
PPP did contributed in passing language bill in 1972, but that was a reaction and public demand specially what Sindhi faced during One-Unit. The steps like denial of voter lists in Sindhi, ban on Sindhi to be used as medium of instruction after class six by Ayub Khan, all lead to this. You need to check your maths that Sindhi ruled Sindh for 40 years (and your recent phrase for God know how many years). Sindh gave Pakistan its capital, but first cabinet of Pakistan had no Sindhi. Why? PPP's government came in Pakistan after 25 years of Pakistan's independence. Who ruled the country and sowed seeds of racism in between?
Bhutto just ruled the country for 6-7 years and then came 11 years of whom? The biggest culprit of Pakistani history and he was not Sindhi, if you know and accept it. What could you expect from Benazir Bhutto's weak governments to do for Sindhi? Everyone knows what was the attitude of Pervez Musharraf with Sindhis. Zardari who came with 'Pakistan khappay' slogan had no interest in promoting Sindhi. His minister Maulka Bux Chandio used same language as you have been using in these threads 'we got bigger issue to settle, as if settling language issue is a hindrance to solving other problems. naach na jaane aangan teRha.
If Sindhi has flourished and have presence in educational institution of Sindh, then ruling parties has little role as compared to masses, writers, intellectuals, students, who protested every move against their language. This gave them newspapers and TV channels in their own langauge who talk about their issues, when national media has a general tendency to avoid covering their problems. Covering Thar's issue is an exception. Otherwise, the story is known to everyone.
Re: Sons of Soil and Sindhi Language
Bring me my statement about Quaid e Azam and Sindhi. I did talked about his going to visit Dhaka university and declaring Urdu as only official language, which was not taken in good spirit by Bengalis. I did tell you that one might disagree with that but like many historians I found it a wrong decision as it created sense of being disowned in Bengali community. Talk about twisting words?
For your kind information, if Sindhis are racist than all communities / ethnicties are responsible for it. Give me a justification for banning their language for use as medium of instruction in their own province just after three years of independence. Ignoring these things (which got proper documentary backing) makes you sound more racist than us Sindhis.
You know what your problem is. You think that you got all right to insult others and their language. Did you read your comment that by sticking to use mother tongue in schools, Sindhis have been denied right to good education in Urdu and English. For your information, you might got such complexes for your mother tongue, but we Sindhis don't have such complexes to disown and discredit our Mother tongue.
PPP did contributed in passing language bill in 1972, but that was a reaction and public demand specially what Sindhi faced during One-Unit. The steps like denial of voter lists in Sindhi, ban on Sindhi to be used as medium of instruction after class six by Ayub Khan, all lead to this. You need to check your maths that Sindhi ruled Sindh for 40 years (and your recent phrase for God know how many years). Sindh gave Pakistan its capital, but first cabinet of Pakistan had no Sindhi. Why? PPP's government came in Pakistan after 25 years of Pakistan's independence. Who ruled the country and sowed seeds of racism in between?
Bhutto just ruled the country for 6-7 years and then came 11 years of whom? The biggest culprit of Pakistani history and he was not Sindhi, if you know and accept it. What could you expect from Benazir Bhutto's weak governments to do for Sindhi? Everyone knows what was the attitude of Pervez Musharraf with Sindhis. Zardari who came with 'Pakistan khappay' slogan had no interest in promoting Sindhi. His minister Maulka Bux Chandio used same language as you have been using in these threads 'we got bigger issue to settle, as if settling language issue is an hindrance to solving other problems. naach na jaane aangan teRha.
If Sindhi has flourished and have presence in educational institution of Sindh, then ruling parties has little role as compared to masses, writers, intellectuals, students, who protested every move against their language. This gave them newspapers and TV channels in their own langauge who talk about their issues, when national media has a general tendency to avoid covering their problems. Covering Thar's issue is an excpetion. Otherwise, the story is known to everyone.
Oh please. Just because I don't wear my ethnic pride on my sleeves or cry rivers about my Mother Tongue and flaunt any victim complex doesn't mean I have any inferior complex about my mother tongue. If you get any cheap thrills by rubbing in any stupid stereotype about Punjabis and their language, then go ahead. Go ahead and judge my love for my mother tongue by handful of posts I make on your forum. Give me a rating. I want to know where my love for Punjabi stands. Likes of you will be the first one to cry the day Punjabi nationalism really kicks off. But as they often say, if I'm indeed a real Punjabi then it is beneath me to feel like a lousy victim. I'll leave this job for others. Try something else.
I do applaud you for going around in circles and still not answering the real question that why PPP and other nationalists failed to grant to Sindhi the official language status if it was that big of a heartache for the locals? Don't shoot the typical PPP response where the clock is forever stuck in 70s.
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Give me a justification for banning their language for use as medium of instruction in their own province just after three years of independence. Ignoring these things (which got proper documentary backing) makes you sound more racist than us Sindhis.
[/QUOTE]
Don't you dare pull the pathetic racist card! So typical of Sindhis (be it Urdu speakers and PPP walas) to pull the racist card when asked to explain the violent racism in that province. The only and the best answer they seem to give is to call the person a racist for questioning their xenophobia. If you really want to take things down that route, then I can brand you as a bigger xenophobe and racist. It is child's play to throw these terms around on internet. Whether you like it or it, Pakistan was the new country and it needed a binding medium to unite the country and find a new collective identity and the medium was provided in the only national lingua franca. There was a justification to aggressively introduce Urdu in Pakistani schools, whether you agree with it or not is a totally different issue.
Hamid Mir once said that 90% of Balochistan is a no go area for journalists and especially those who belong to 'outside' race hence very less coverage of Baloch issues, I wonder how much of that is also similar for interior Sindh. I mean Pakistan's media is largely based in Karachi, why don't local Karachi reporters go deep in Sindh to report their 'struggles'?
Re: Sons of Soil and Sindhi Language
Oh please. Just because I don't wear my ethnic pride on my sleeves or cry rivers about my Mother Tongue and flaunt any victim complex doesn't mean I have any complex about my mother tongue. If you get any cheap thrills by harping about any stupid stereotype about Punjabis and their language, then go ahead. Go on, judge my love for my mother tongue by handful of posts I make on your forum. Give me a rating. I want to know where my love for Punjabi stands. Likes of you will be the first one to cry the day Punjabi nationalism really kicks off. But as they often say, if I'm indeed a real Punjabi then it is beneath me to feel like a lousy victim and warrior nationalist all in one, innit? I'll leave this job for others. Try something else.
I do applaud you for going around in circles and still not answering the real question that why PPP and other nationalists failed to grant to Sindhi the official language status if it was that big of a heartache for the locals? Don't shoot the typical PPP response where the clock is forever stuck in 70s.
Don't you dare pull the pathetic racist card! So typical of Sindhis (be it Urdu speakers and PPP walas) to pull the racist card when asked to explain the violent racism in that province. The only and the best answer is to call the person who asked this question a racist for questioning their xenophobia. If you really want to take things down that route, then I can brand you as a bigger xenophobe and racist. It is child's play to throw these terms around on internet. Whether you like it or it, Pakistan was the new country and it needed a binding medium which was provided in only national lingua franca. There is was justification to aggressively introduce Urdu in Pakistani schools, whether you agree with it or not is a totally different issue.
so bismillah. The day Punjabis own their language, they will understand others attachment for their language.
I gave you my version of understanding that who promoted Sindhi in Sindh. Why Sindhi has not been given national status is behind the thought that more national languages will divide the country. Talk of fragile patriotism by likes of you who are thekedar of Pakistan with their pathetic complexes.
Re: Sons of Soil and Sindhi Language
so bismillah. The day Punjabis own their language, they will understand others attachment for their language.
I gave you my version of understanding that who promoted Sindhi in Sindh. Why Sindhi has not been given national status is behind the thought that more national languages will divide the country. Talk of fragile patriotism by likes of you who are thekedar of Pakistan with their pathetic complexes.
Thank you very much, Punjabis very much own their language and are very attached to it. You can stop worrying about Punjabis and concentrate on soothing your own pathetic complexes. Rest assured, Punjabis don't need to constantly cry about to prove this to people like. There is a reason why their language is considered such an inviting and easy to pick up language purely on the basis of social experiences because it's speakers don't attach any self important snobbery to the language. Let them develop their province to the point where people from outside go there to find jobs and pick up their language out of love and respect, just like plenty of Urdu speakers, Pashtuns, Baloch, Kashmiris and Saraikis have done over the years. I'd weep the day Punjab gets fooled in the name of ethnic pride and xenophobia and violent racism becomes its identity.
And please don't be threatened by 'patriotism', I don't even know what it means, and I wish I could be real a thakedar of Pakistan. I'd like to think that I might just be able to make xenophobia slightly uncool if I ever land in such position. No bad, eh?
Re: Sons of Soil and Sindhi Language
ok. Nice information you shared :k: