The current situation in Pakistan had led me to question some ideas and people, i would like to know what other knowledgeable guppies think of this article.
These two ghazi brothers are ex students of Mufti Taqi Usmani, a man i admire. He has previously written an article in Jang news regarding the Lal masjid stance and now why dont we let people like him negotiate with ghazi? there are 800 people inside the mosque, an operation would result in far too many casualties, with ghazi being obstinate and news being restricted, things dont look any where near being shaping up. With no trust in current governement and nothing but exceptional regret in regards with which Lal masjid administration has handled the situation i pray to Allah that a peaceful solution is sought through negotiations and no more blood is being shed. From the papers i read MMA members were willing to intervene but Ghazi declined, now a batch of ulemas has volunteered but they have been denied by the government. My primary concern is regarding the students and kids in the mosque, 800 is a number to big to comprehend.I wish some solution is sought that absolutely means no loss of life on either sides, be it rangers,army or students and kids inside the mosque. Here is the article and the write quotes Hanafi Fiqh and how the actions of two brothers are against it.
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For the past two day Ghazi is offering sollutions and backing off, the govt is also not giving high priority to saving girls and children.
one argument that
The govt is responsible for giving these extremist freehand for piling ammunition is factually true and the recipe of disaster is patented by govt (agencies), but on the other hand it is also a fact that this brand of brainwashing is not one of its kind. It is rampant and deeply rooted in society. There are hundreds of madrisahs who are preaching hate and extremism.
Regardless of govt's ill-intention and pre-planned drama, it was the need of the hour that people of pakistan realise the graveness of the situation how hate and exteme brainwashing is going on all around the country and realise how dangerous this trend is for country and Islam, in particular
I pray the situation does not end like Baslin catastrophe
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I wrote this letter to the president of Pakistan today. It has some answer to what you raised.
Dear President
Assalaamu Alaikum wr wb
I cannot understand how come some retarded so-called religious ulemas want amnesty for criminals of Lal Building? Have they never heard about Prophet (SAW) saying that even if his daughter would have stolen, he would order her to get punished according to Law. Story of Umar (RA) is quite popular that he would not even spare his own son if his son is involved in any crime.
Now, some jahil ulemas are asking government to forgive the crimes of these Lal building criminals, how come? These criminals are murderers, killers, kidnapper, arsonists, Land grabbers (for whom Allah has said that they would never be able to go to heaven), property grabbers, harassers, blackmailers, well they are criminals that are involved (directly or indirectly) in all sort of crimes with fancy name. Now, how can some so-called jahil retarded ulemas are calling government to forgive them?
If they are forgiven, tomorrow there would be 100s like these retarded criminals going to rise up from different madrassas. Well, why just madrassas, given them pardon would mean anyone who blackmails government on pretext that they can harm some children, even their own children, should be getting pardon. We should realise that Children in Lal building joined these criminals willingly and their parents did not pull them out, even when these criminals were doing crime openly. I think that even parents of the children in that building are criminals, as they knowingly and intentionally allowed their children to get involved and take part in crimes of lal mandir.
I do not think that any real ulema would side with these criminals. Only jahil so-called retarded ulema would side with criminals.
If MMA (or any politicians) think that those two criminal brothers (and their criminal Ninja and goat brigades) of lal building should be given forgiveness, then that should be same for all criminals in Pakistan, and thus MMA should come out in public declaring their beliefs, telling people that they condone the acts of these two criminals and their followers of lal building, and that this is the Pakistan they want, and all such crimes should be allowed in Pakistan constitutionally. Obviously, what they think is fine for one Pakistani or that one Pakistani should be forgiven for such crimes, then it should apply for all Pakistanis.
What level of retards these jahil so-called ulemas are, it is unbelievable.
I hope that government should punish al criminals, including criminals of Lal building according to law, and if government does not want and given them some concession, amnesty, or pardon them, than government should give same amnesty or pardon to all criminals all over Pakistan, that are involved in similar crimes.
Wa`alaikum Assalaam
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the children part is where you are wrong i think. a 13 years boy managed to escape and according to him he came to pick his sister up from murray on friday and was not allowed to leave, similarily other kids around his age are being held without any choice. and what understanding does a teenager have of this situation?most of these students come from underdeveloped areas and their parents are not educated or not well aware of the situation, heaped on that the kids from flood struck area, there is just too much at stake here.
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I agree with Croquet to some extent here - there are kids in there that probably didn't want to be in there from the first place, or were too ignorant to know what was going on for months - like the kidnappings, etc.
Or they were told a different side of the story and were brainwashed. You can't blame a 7 year old for believing her teacher when her teacher says that Allah is so proud of Lal Masjid's work in relieving society of prostitutes with their actions and that they're helping these women, when that 7 year old doesn't have any access to TV or newspapers (many madrassas actually do not allow their kids to have access to outside news) to know of any other perspective of the story.
I'm sure the Ghazi brothers are not having the same conversations with the children (students) as they are with their militant partners in crime within the masjid.
That being said, I'm sure there are teenagers in there that want to be in there and totally believe they will be granted heaven when they die in crossfire.
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the children part is where you are wrong i think. a 13 years boy managed to escape and according to him he came to pick his sister up from murray on friday and was not allowed to leave, similarily other kids around his age are being held without any choice. and what understanding does a teenager have of this situation?most of these students come from underdeveloped areas and their parents are not educated or not well aware of the situation, heaped on that the kids from flood struck area, there is just too much at stake here.
Well, does it means that if some criminals brainwash innocents and make them hostage then demand anything from government, governments should give things up? Does it mean that any decoit and murderer should be given forgiveness just because he had some hostages?
Well, how about forgetting Kashmir, rather surrendering Kashmir to India, just because India has made so many Kashmiries hostage in occupied Kashmir and killing many innocents there, and now demands that Pakistan should abandon their claim of plebiscite in Kashmir? Obviously, that would mean lot of innocent life saved from the atrocities of Indian, so is that right?
Yes there are few hundred innocent at stake in Lal building, but that does not mean that criminals should be given pardon or let them go free (as these so-called misguided ulema are demanding).
I hope that government should not fall to blackmailing by these retards in Lal building and so-called ulema (along with Chaudhary retard and Ejaz-ul-Batil) form outside. These so-called ulemas who some are calling jayeed.. are really not jayeed, but deserve to be called idiots and are propogating fitna in the name of Islam).
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who wants to let them go free, right now its imperative to get the few hundred innocents out. then let the justice be done. seriously rules of negotiations are pretty simple. and i dont know what ulemas are supporting them or asking to let them free, qazi is not an alim and rest of the body of ulemas prior to this incident wrote to jang news to let people know that they dont support this behaviour. right now they want to intervene on behalf of those people who are inside.
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I don't get it. Its been months since these Qazi brothers began their crimes. They were repeatedly excused after each kidnapping and property destruction incident. For months, the President has been sending in people to do negotiations. What the hell do you call the Imam of the Kaaba being sent in to talk to them?? That's not negotiations!
We're talking about months of negotiations, and even NOW they are not aiming guns at any woman or child and are STILL continuuing to send in people to talk to these guys.
Have you been sleeping for the past few months? ALL that has happened so far IS negotiations!
If you think that even after all these attempts they should still not try to bomb some holes in the wall so that students can try and escape, then you must really be off your rocker!
I'm so sick of this. Negotiations karein negotiations karein. The entire Pakistan's maulvi population has either been on the phone with the Qazi brothers or have visited him at some point. Kahan negotiations nahi horay hain???
Do you even know if this guy you're talking about - Usmani - even WANTS to go in and talk to them??? Do you even know whether he's tried to talk to them earlier? Maybe he doesn't want to go into this fighting and risk his life for students he probably knows are a bunch of quacks!
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PCG read the PAPERS! for heavens sake. you are a complete and utter imbecile at times.
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and it is ghazi brothers 
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as from mufti usmani he made the offer was rejected, then tried again by calling shujat hussain and later not him but handful of ulemas were allowed ,they reported that ghazi is willing to surrender and that govt must stop the shoot out. negotiations are the key for people who have more heart and brains than others.
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here is source of newspaper with info in it http://209.41.165.180/important_events/lalmasjid/pages/urdu_news.asp
trying R E A D I N G, slowly and do it couple of times to get the better grasp of it.
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as from mufti usmani he made the offer was rejected, then tried again by calling shujat hussain and later not him but handful of ulemas were allowed ,they reported that ghazi is willing to surrender and that govt must stop the shoot out. negotiations are the key for people who have more heart and brains than others.
They reported that ghazi is willing to surrender .. If anyone is saying that, he is saying nothing but lies.
He is willing to surrender? Over 1200 people already surrendered. His brother has surrendered. What stops him? Does he need to be told how to surrender in sign language? Doesn’t he know that to surrender, he can just raise his arms and come out of the mosque, that’s all, rest would follow.
Actually, this retarded mullah Rasheed was arguing on TV that all his crimes should be forgiven and that he should be allowed to live peacefully without any punishment. He also wants that all criminals in Lal building should also be given free passage to go wherever they want. Government is only asking him to surrender and that his future would be decided through court. Government also offered him that he would not be kept in prison but guest house.
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^hmm yeah i just read that, latest news is that. earlier on it was something else. and its the same news paper reporting.
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I've been watching television coverage nearly every day on this, my impertinent friend.
First off, you need to back off, take a deep breathe, and think before you write condescending comments. It really doesn't come off as Islamic.
Khair, I am with saleem on this one. I agree that Ghazi, some days ago, was agreeing to surrender, and I nearly jumped with relief when I heard it, because just like you, I too am really hopeful that the kids and women inside come out unharmed after all this.
However, it has been some days that nearly EVERYONE has known that his condition was that he not be arrested or punished and be left alone, and he promised he'd move out of Islamabad.
This is Islamically unacceptable. You want to talk about Islam, correct? So, lets talk about Islam. When the Prophet had a whole tribe of Jews commit treason (basically backstab him during a battle), he had nearly the entire tribe (legend has it) executed.
What makes you think that two brothers who are committing treason from inside Lal Masjid deserve any less? I'm personally AMAZED that the government hasn't thrown bombs at the masjid and killed everyone off by now, because guaranteed, that's what would have happened in any other country. No one would stand for this drama.
Now, surrender is all fine, and I'm glad he's willing to surrender, but with these conditions, no one would accept it. So the government is Islamic, instead of untrustworthy (yet another Islamic principle at work! I'm amazed again!), and tells this guy that these terms aren't acceptable.
So he's still sitting in the mosque.
After which point he pouts and says he isn't coming out under any terms.
Then for some time janaab sits in the masjid and doesn't take any further phone calls, leaving people to wonder if he's dead.
Now he's back on the phone, talking to these same ulema, saying the same things. He wants amnesty if he's let out.
I'll tell you what. If someone had your kid in there, you would NOT want this guy walking free.
If you want the government to lie to him and tell him they accept his terms, and then Ghazi Qazi walks out and surrenders, and then they book him, then yet again, people like yourself who are constantly unhappy with Musharraf will do rohna dohna on the internet about how untrustworthy Musharraf is and how untrustworthy the government is, and how buzdil they all are, and how APC needs to take over now.
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the day i would like to talk islam with you is the day i would expect monkey to talk with humans. you are bringing islam in it, i am merely showing concern for those trapped inside. i was asking the islamically knowledgable folks about the disregard that these brothers had showed (according to the link i posted in connection with hanafi fiqah?). where have i linked islam and govt? and where have i connected islam and you? you keep asking me how do i know this and that and its irritating since its all in the papers and you take it off topic with your rants. get it through your head i am not interested in mush vs ghazi brothers i am interested in how the heck this is going to work.and if i had my kid in there i would want govt to bomb the entire mosque? and you are amazed?
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Saleem bhai
I think I would agree regarding the children. The Kashmir parable is different and another political agenda that cannot be compared with this situation. Let me quote another example from our history when the Prophet SAW conquered Makkah, no one was harmed and amnesty to all who surrendered. This action put a lot of them on the right path and they embraced Islam. Even after Badr, a lot of the POW were shown leniency and many who could not even ransom themselves were allowed ransom in exchange teaching a muslim how to read and write. When there is a chance for leniency, it always succeeds in changing hearts but coercion never does. This is a proven fact. Now ofcourse it does not work in all cases. Some people are just too dangerous to be given leniency and should not be absolved of their crimes (in this case the Ghazi bretheren). As for the kids, they may even think otherwise but they are still students and could be taught differently, if given the opportunity.
It depends on how such children are handled, stern action against will just reinforce their hatred and determination to a demented cause. If the government were to show the path to a better life for them then they can succeed in changing them forever. These children are not independent thinkers yet and their resolve is just as much as the presence of their leader. They are just victims of circumstance and can be changed by providing them with different circumstances.
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Bhai, please do not compare Apple with Banana. I know that some retards so-called ulema have also talked what you wrote and that is there deception. Please for you own sake, do not get deceived from their deceptions. You should know that they are Iblis worshiper and Iblis is master of deceptions.
Let me put things clearly. At the time when Mecca was captured, Prophet (SAW) gave pardon to all Meccans. True … no doubt. But Meccans did not do any crime. Whatever they did to Muslims when Muslims were in Mecca, they did what their laws (Meccan laws) allowed them to do. Prophets only gave them pardon as punishing them on their crimes (that was not crime according to their Meccan law) would have been revenge on helpless Meccans not on basis of justice but on basis of military victory over them.
Same way, POW of Badar was forgiven because what they did; fought Muslims, it was not crime but just action for them, as they were doing that according to their laws (that had their own government). They were not Muslims and were at war with Muslims. If they were punished, it would not have been according to Islamic laws (that advocates justice), but would have been revenge (taking advantage of them in captivity). According to Islam, we have to be just to all, be that Muslims or non-Muslims, regardless of what others would do to us.
Now, case of these retards is not to do with POW situation, neither they came under Muslims rule because of occupation, but they are criminals. Islam does not allow state to forgive criminals. All criminals should get prosecuted and should be given punishment according to law. There are some crimes that can be forgiven by the victim of the criminals (if they agree willingly), and I do not think that all that got effected by these retards would forgive them. That include people they killed, people they kidnapped, people whose property they destroyed, people whose businesses they destroyed, people they mentally made insecure, public lands they illegally occupied, disruption they caused, etc etc etc.
Nevertheless, there is another story about their crimes too. Crimes against the state are unpardonable (crimes to do with breaking the laws of the land). State belongs to all living within the state and should be dealt in same way. If crime is done against the state, it is almost impossible for state to forgive that. State has to be impartial and if State forgives crime of one man (or group) than state should do justice to all within the state, and should forgive similar crimes of all. That is wider justice that any just state should follow (especially an Islamic state).
Now, you can understand that these retards could not and should not get any forgiveness, and should not deserve any sympathy from anyone, especially Muslims (but then no doubt, retarded, misguided, and Iblis worshipers would sympathies or support them, as it is expected from them).
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Bhai, please do not compare Apple with Banana. I know that some retards so-called ulema have also talked what you wrote and that is there deception. You should know that they are Iblis worshiper and Iblis is master of deception.
Let me put things clearly. At the time when Mecca was captured, Prophet (SAW) gave pardon to all Meccans. True … no doubt. But Meccans did not do any crime. Whatever they did to Muslims when Muslims were in Mecca, they did what their laws (Meccan laws) allowed them to do. Prophets only gave them pardon as punishing them on their crimes (that was not crime according to their Meccan law) would have been revenge not on basis of justice but on basis of victory.
Same way, POW of Badar was forgiven because what they did, fought Muslims, it was fine for them, as they were doing that according to their laws. They were not Muslims and were at war with Muslims. If they were punished, it would not have been according to Law, but would have been revenge (taking advantage of them in captivity). According to Islam, we have to be just to all, be that Muslims or non-Muslims, regardless of what others would do to us.
Understood where you are coming from though a little different from what I was saying.
Now, case of these retards is not to do with POW situation, neither they came under Muslims rule because of occupation, but they are criminals. Islam does not allow state to forgive criminals. All criminals should get prosecuted and should be given punishment according to law. There are some crimes that can be forgiven by the victim of the criminals (if they agree willingly), and I do not think that all that got effected by these retards would forgive them. That include people they killed, people they kidnapped, people whose property they destroyed, people whose businesses they destroyed, people they mentally made insecure, public lands they illegally occupied, disruption they caused, etc etc etc.
But the point is not all retards are incurable. I do not regard underage children (say early teens) as retards or perpetrators of crimes. They will do whatever there elders are directing them to do given the way our culture works especially when they are feeding them and taking care of them. Given the literacy levels in Pakistan we shouldn't expect uneducated people to even have Shaoor to understand all this. You have to teach it to them otherwise to them you are just encroaching on their limited understanding and ridiculing them. Ignoring the sensitivities of our culture can make this whole thing backfire especially with women and children involved. There is no blanket punishment here because you cannot even identify those who actually did something and those who did not.
Nevertheless, there is another story about their crimes too. Crimes against the state are unpardonable (crimes to do with breaking the laws of the land). State belongs to all living within the state (be they Muslims or non-Muslims) [Read Meesaq-e-Madina, that is first Islamic constitution of state with the agreement of Prophet (SAW), that shows that all living in state are equal to each other within state]. If crime is done against the state, it is almost impossible for state to forgive that. State has to be impartial and if State forgives crime of one man (or group) than state should do justice to all within the state, and should forgive similar crimes of all. [Though in practice it does not always happen, but that should happen under Islamic law, that state should not forgive crimes against the state, as that is wider justice].
Yes crimes against the state cannot be pardoned but first you need to catch people red handed to prove they perpetrated the crime. When you have a bunch of burqa clad ladies throwing stones or abducting people you cannot ID who did it. In a crowd of thousands you cannot blame everyone only those who are caught red-handed in the act. When they were doing it was the time something should have been done to disperse the crowd because everyone would have been present there, that moment is lost.
There may be people in the masjid now who have come to there senses but cannot get out, maana ke gehoon ke saath ghun bhi pista hai but its not that simple.
Jaahilon ke saath un ke level per baat karni parti warna wo jaahil hi rehtay hain. The problem is that these mullah tullas just victimize such people into thinking that they care for them and then the government just comes in washes them away, this is only going to reinforce their victim thinking. If the government shows that they really care then they can break the hold of mullahs on such people. And this will not happen after just one such incident but one such incident resulting in the government going on a rampage will definitely linger in memories forever. Insaan fitratan na shukra hai. Pakistan needs a reform not a holocaust. We need to topple the thinkers of such movements not the zombies.
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^^
Brother, please do not blame me that I am not differentiating between innocent misguided and real culprits. I always wrote that these retarded people (real culprits) are misguiding innocents. I did not ever write that government should punish the misguided but I am for punishing those that are pulling the ropes, at all cost, as that is important, as that would stop lot of fitna in future.
As for proof that who did what and since those who did were behind burqa it is difficult to know who did what? Then here is some conflict in understanding each other. I do not even consider those misguided Ninjas doing any crime, as they were misguided. Real criminals were those who were pulling the ropes (those two brothers and their wives).
For example, one cannot say that crime of killing is done by the bullet, as bullet killed the person. But when a bullet kills someone, criminal is not bullet but those that pulled the trigger. Same way, criminals are not those Ninjas (they were bullets) but those under whose command these Ninjas were acting, retards of the Mosque. Further, retards of the mosques were acting for the retarded Shaitanic Ulemas that gave them the status and are supporting these retards even today. So, to me, retards of the mosque as well as those Shaitanic Ulemas that gave them that status and are still supporting these retards are all criminals.
Anyhow, it is difficult to punish big Shaitanic Ulemas, as they have huge misguided followers in Pakistan, many in the government too. It is very difficult to even educate masses regarding them as power of Shaitan controls most access to spreading education and they have huge unlimited resources. They do not even argue or discuss Islam logically, but are quick to give Kufur fitwa and many of their misguided followers would be quick to silence anyone. They have people supporting them from all walk of lives; that have beard as well as clean shaved, those that drink alcohol to those that would spend days in mosque. But than, it is important that at least these little Iblis of the Lal Building should get the punishment they deserve.
[Even writing about them on this forum (with sweet coated pills) means possible warning, so you can understand their reach]