some questions regarding Abu Bakr thread

[Texan_Dude]

I was anlyzing the Abu Bakr thread and there were a number of questions that came in my mind and I wanted to get some feed back… I don’t want to raise any conflicts or offend anyone just a decent conversation to get other people views on different issues

@armughal

the Prophet (saw) said that all doors of jannah shall be opened for Abu Bakr (ra) so he may enter it from whichever door he wishes…

and some people wish to defame such a person… what else can u do but question the correctness of their minds…

@DesReich

there is a lot of spicing up of historical events by both shia & sunni traditionalists and ahadeeth…more reliable are historical accounts esp. the ones by earlier historians on whom all subsequent scholars have relied on …in them the degree of animosity between the early caliphs is not as marked as it appears to be in many later reports which were fabricated for sectarian reasons

Guyzz this is exactly what I was pointing about in my previous post about quran and sunnah lemme quote it again…

Besides the hadith mentioned above there is another hadith of Prophet P.B.U.H.which is narrated in Sahih Muslim
**“Zayd said: ‘O brother, by God, I have become aged and old and I have forgotten some of what I used to remember from the Messenger of Allah , upon whom be Allah’s peace and benedictions. So accept what I narrate to you and as to what I don’t, trouble me not regarding it.’ Then he said: ‘One day the Messenger of Allah , upon whom be Allah’s peace and benedictions, addressed us near a pond called Khumm between Makkah and Madinah. He praised God and extolled Him and preached and reminded (us). Then he said, “Lo, O people, I am only a human being and I am about to respond to the messenger of my Lord *. I am leaving behind two precious things (thaqalayn) among you. The first of the two is the Book of Allah. In it is guidance and light. So get hold of the Book of Allah and adhere to it.” Then he urged and motivated (us) regarding the Book of Allah . Then he said, “And my Ahl al­Bayt (family). I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahl al­Bayt. I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahl al­Bayt. I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahl al­Bayt”’” … **
(Sahih Muslim, part 7, Kitab fada’il al­Sahabah [Maktabat wa Matbaat Muhammad Ali Subayh wa Awladuhu: Cairo] pp. 122-123.)
http://www.al-islam.org/thaqalayn/nontl/index.htm](http://www.al-islam.org/thaqalayn/nontl/index.htm)
**If we try to look in the light of history, Ahleybait has always been there to defend islam… when it got to a point where all the khalifas used to have the title of Ameer ul Momineen… Imam Hussain was the one who stood against Yazeed when he became khaleefa, not only did he presented his life but also his family and what yazeed did with the grand daughters of Propeht is an eye opener for us what a bad khaleefa he was… not only that Imam Hanafia was also a student of Imam Jaffar Sadiq A.S, who happens to be a grandson of Imam Hussain… it suprises me that people would take him as the imam but not his teacher who happens to be the 6th of 12 shia imams, suprisingly there is a hadith on the site that calls for 12 imams… Infact Imam Mahdi A.S..who everybody has been waiting for is going to be from Ahleybait… Similarly the website also has indication where Bibi Fatima Zehra S.A. stood **
against Abu Bakr when Abu Bakr took fidaq which was given to her by Prophet P.B.U.H… and in response there were ayats in quran which talks about Prophets leaving inheritance… Since Prophet P.B.U.H does everything that is accoring to Allah SWT will he fact that he gave the hadith about whoever hurts Fatima S.A. hurted… is a guidance for us … it shows who followed quran and was righteous…
Some of the sects follow a similar hadith which talks about Quran and sunnah… when I try to interpret this hadith following are some questions that raised in my mind…
1. If Prophet P.B.U.H… wanted people to follow sunnah wouldn’t he has pointed out a source of sunnah any compilation or anyting… There is a following verse in the quran…
“Today I have perfected your religion and completed my favour upon you, and I was satisfied that Islam be your religion.” (Qur’an 5:3)
**When it is stated in quran that islam was perfected at the time of Prophet… why would Prophet P.B.U.H ask people to follow sunnah but do not give a correct source and leave it to the people to compile all the sunnah because this introduces the concept of fabrication… some people believe some and some people believe other…for example even their are two versions of this hadith one calles for quran and Ahley bait and the other calls for quran and sunnah. Gupshup is also a very good example.. where I have seen people picking and choose hadith which fullfills their interest and calls other one’s dhaeef… would follow sunnah make us perfect…??? **

You can see for yourself one side sunni believes in following sunnah and from there they pick and choose whatever meets their interest eventhough quran testifies Islam is perfect at the time of Prophet P.B.U.H. I tried to express my views in the first post… but I would wanna know wat other feels about them

http://al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter1a/1.html
http://al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter1a/2.html
http://al-islam.org/encyclopedia/

@fbi786

Another simple point i want to make … If the companions at the time of this particular issue regarding land …did not speak out as to why the Prophets dont leave inheritance .. then Who the hell are we to bring up such issues and question the Noble personalities … of these companions, as to what and why they made such decisions …

Dude once again read the website with an open and cool minded.. with a will to accepts what is the authentic sunni books and answer me the following questons

1. The fact that Fatima Zehra S.A. speaked out as per authentic sunni books doesn’t mean anything for you…
2. Bibi was at such a high status that Prophet P.B.U.H. stood up in her respect isn’t it good enough for you… doesn’t it place her over the companions
3. The fact that Prophet P.B.U.H. who alwayz speaks out on the will of Allah SWT gave a hadith of whoever hurted Fatima hurted him…doesn’t that mean anything to u???
4. Does the following 2 ayat of quran tells you anything about the status of Janab Fatima SA?
   [Yusufali 33:33] And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance; and establish regular Prayer, and give regular Charity; and obey Allah and His Messenger. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless.

[Shakir 42:23] That is of which Allah gives the good news to His servants, (to) those who believe and do good deeds. Say: I do not ask of you any reward for it but love for my near relatives; and whoever earns good, We give him more of good therein; surely Allah is Forgiving, Grateful.

Come on how ignorant do you want to be to deny the facts that are in your own books???

@teaser

Its between Allah :swt: and Abu Bakr (ra) and Fatima (a). Who are we to judge if they were angry with each other? I am sure we will not be granted Jannah if we find out/figure out if Fatima (a) was angry with Abu Bakr (ra) or not…

A vast majority of the sects believe on a hadith that mentions the ummah will be divided into a number of sects and off those one will go to heaven… woul u wanna be the follower of the sect that respects the personality that offended Prophet P.B.U.H or the one that stood by Islam and truth and sacrificed their lives in the way of Allah the Ahley bait whose students some sunni respects as Imam such as Imam Hanafi… but they don’t want to take the direct guidance from the teacher of Imam Hanafi… Imam Jaffar Sadiq who was from Ahley bait… even Imam Mahdi…is going to be from Ahley bait… brother have you ever wondered where would we be now if people would have followed the hadith of Ghadir

“Whoever I am the Leader Ali is his leader”
www.al-islam.org/ghadir

Let me ask yous something Medina was a muslim city at the time of of Prophet death.. why was the issue of khilafat was so important to some companions that they prefer sorting that out than attending the funeral services of Prophet… who are these people… who offended Janab -e- Faima when Prophet P.B.U.H… mentioned specifially that whoever hurts fatima hurt him… and who are these people who calls the person who came against Mawla Ali A.S. Ameer ul Momineen and at the same time calls Hazrat Ali A.S… Ameer ul Momineen also .. at time I wonder when some some sunni calls Mawiya Ameer ul Momineen even though he came against Mawla Ali A.S… Ali who slept at the bed of Prophet Ghadeer… Ali who was fatey khyber… Ali who had the honor to perform the funeral services of Prophet P.B.U.H. when a person who come against such a noble personality is called Ameer ul Momineen then why don’t they call Yazeed Ameer ul Momineen also… he didn’t doanything different from his father… his father came against Mawla Ali and he came against grand son of Prohpet… and infact after killing Imam Hussian.. Yazeed army left the body of Imam Hussain and family of Prophet without even giving him a funeral the same way some companions left the funeral of Prophet to resolve khilafat issue. Had Imam Hussain and family of Prophet P.B.U.H. had not stood against yazeed and brougt his true face in front of everybody … I won’t be suprised if People have called yazeed Ameeer ul Momineen also as they had been calling people who came to war against and have hurted the family of Prophet P.B.U.H… what Yazeed did with the ladies of family of Prophet shows how far people have reached for khilafat… it didn’t matter if they had to hurt the family of Prophet his daughter or kill his grandson or leave the funeral of Prophet and his family to resolve khilafat issue…

The tragedy of kerbala where Prophet’s family was sacrificed thier blood after 3 days of hunger and thirst and ladies beared so much humility just so we can learn a lesson from it and yet even the trust is mentioned in form of hadith’s in their authentic sahih books they want to play ignorant just because they don’t want to hear the trust…

Allah on the day of judment please give us the honor to be with the Ahley bait and the people who wish to be with the person who offended Ahleybait or hurted Prophet let them be with them… Ameen.

Don’t want to offend anybody… all I mentioned are just my personal views and want to know what other people think about it…May Allah SWT help us all follow the right path…Ameen*

[psyah]

Re: some questions regarding Abu Bakr thread

Peace Texan_Dude

No one hurt Fatimah tuZahra (RA) but she felt hurt. In matters of emotion there can be valid reasons for it or invalid ones. Proof is that Abu Bakr AsSiddique (RA) was providing a basis for his decisions and no one spoke out against his reasoning. His understanding was like none other from the companions. They (RA) would speak out against any wrong injunction but they did not here.

The argument about Ali (RA) not saying anything about the land out of a desire not to cause divide, needs to be ratified also. How do we know that is the case? And if Abu Bakr AsSiddique (RA) angered Fatimah (RA) for not delivering the land then Ali (RA) by that token would be angering Fatimah (RA) for not speaking out against it or defending his wife's right.

Did Ali (RA) return the land to Ahl alBayt afterwards when he was Khaliph?

By pointing fingers at any of the Sahabi soon after the demise of RasoolAllah then you are effectively pointing fingers at all of them for inappropriately dealing with the situation.

At least we are in a situation where we can say that people may or may not have been hurt ... but this was a time when emotions were high due to a great loss and it took a few to reconcile the situation with evidence. Abu Bakr AsSiddique was of them.

The argument of Ali (RA) not giving bayat is again a non-starter because he did so eventually, if he was meant to be the first then he would have never given allegience. Why did he not do so at first? The only answer lies at this ... because he was concerned about his wife ... Fatimah (RA) and how she would react. After she left this world, then the situations and dynamics changed.

The fact that it is recorded that Fatimah (RA) did not speak with Abu Bakr (RA) for the rest of her life is again a mute point. Because there is interpolation behind it people conjure up reasons for this.

How do we know that it was out of anger that this was the case? And are we assuming that they used to talk a lot before this event took place? He (RA) was of no relation to her (RA) other than the friend of her husband (RA) and the Khaliph, are we assuming that she was supposed to talk a lot with Abu Bakr As Siddique (RA).

Also, the fact that they last spoke on that basis does not mean that she (RA) was upset due that fact. It could be a number of reasons. It may have been impracticle for them to have had another conversation. Ali (RA) could have prevented her from approaching Abu Bakr (RA) for anything in future.

And then people correctly give so much value to Ahl Albayt but they then don't assume that they have best character? I would like to believe that even if she (RA) was offended then before she died she would have forgiven all the people in her life and that she would have asked forgiveness from others also. However, with the dynamics of the sentiments delivered by some it is made to seem that the daughter (RA) of RasoolAllah (SAW), was incapable of these feelings or forgiving. What an injustice!

Let not emotions govern our basis for Islam and do not accept heritage except that it is on the right path.

[Zainiest]

Re: some questions regarding Abu Bakr thread

read the following link and then come back and narrate your your unfounded objections

http://anwary-islam.com/companion/abu_bakr_siddiq.htm

[Das_Reich]

Re: some questions regarding Abu Bakr thread

texan_dude you are tying up too many things with the personality of abu bakr[ra] .....how can he be held responsible for what muawiyah and yazid did ?
even the people at the time who opposed his election admitted that ....
read the prophetic words by a badri sahabi Hubbab b Mundhir [ra] when he says that the "children of ansar will be begging for bread & water at the gates of Quraish" .....when abu bakr[ra] asked "do you expect that from me" Hubbab[ra] "No.... but from those who might come after you"
So even if we dont agree with the election of Abubakr[ra] as the first caliph ....that is no reason to hold him accountable for everything that went wrong in islamic history ...we shud all admit that he was amongst the earliest muhajireen and their status [along with those of the ansar] is confirmed in Quran ....abu bakr[ra] fought his own father in Badr ....he liberated Bilal[ra] and Khabbab[ra]

sadly there is one group of muslims who elevate his station to a level which even he did not consider himself ref. his first speech after assuming caliphate] while another group ignores all his merits and services to islam.

His sons also stood up for truth and justice ...one of them being a martyr & loyal partisan of Ameerulmomineen ALi [as] from whose progeny comes the mother of Imam Jafar sadiq and other Abdul rehman[ra] who till his last breath opposed the decision of muawiyah to nominate yazid as caliph

[Texan_Dude]

Re: some questions regarding Abu Bakr thread

@Das_Reich

His sons also stood up for truth and justice …one of them being a martyr & loyal partisan of Ameerulmomineen ALi [as] from whose progeny comes the mother of Imam Jafar sadiq and other Abdul rehman[ra] who till his last breath opposed the decision of muawiyah to nominate yazid as caliph

lol… dude its amazing to see excuses people come up with just to ignore the truth and facts… buddy… what does the fact that his son stood by Hazrat Ali A.S… has to do with Abu Bakr… didn’t her daughter came against Hazrat Ali A.S in jamal… while his son was with Hazrat Ali… how do u explain your so called dad and son ideology in the light of this fact.. nice try though…

@psyah

The argument about Ali (RA) not saying anything about the land out of a desire not to cause divide, needs to be ratified also. How do we know that is the case? And if Abu Bakr AsSiddique (RA) angered Fatimah (RA) for not delivering the land then Ali (RA) by that token would be angering Fatimah (RA) for not speaking out against it or defending his wife’s right.

Buddy please read the issue of fadaq before you start making judments on Mawla Ali A.S. You can use the following website as the reference and read who did Bibi Fatima Zehra S.A. presented as a witness…
http://al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter4/6.html

The fact that it is recorded that Fatimah (RA) did not speak with Abu Bakr (RA) for the rest of her life is again a mute point. Because there is interpolation behind it people conjure up reasons for this.

How do we know that it was out of anger that this was the case? And are we assuming that they used to talk a lot before this event took place? He (RA) was of no relation to her (RA) other than the friend of her husband (RA) and the Khaliph, are we assuming that she was supposed to talk a lot with Abu Bakr As Siddique (RA).

@psyah

Also, the fact that they last spoke on that basis does not mean that she (RA) was upset due that fact. It could be a number of reasons. It may have been impracticle for them to have had another conversation. Ali (RA) could have prevented her from approaching Abu Bakr (RA) for anything in future.

Buddy your comments show your lack of knowledge on this issue and yet trying to come up with excuses just to ignore the truth… Please read the following narration quoted in Sahih Bukhari… which was narrated no other than the daughter of Abu Bakar Bibi Ayesha…

al-Bukhari narrated on the authority of
Aisha that:
… Fatimah became angry with Abu Bakr and kept away from him, and did
not talk to him till she died. She remained alive for six months after
the death of the Prophet. When she died, her husband 'Ali, buried her
at night without informing Abu Bakr and he said the funeral prayer by
himself.
Sunni references:

• Sahih al-Bukhari, Chapter of “The battle of Khaibar”, Arabic-English,
  v5, tradition #546, pp 381-383, also v4, Tradition 325

Also please checkout the site http://www.abubakr.org/ you’ll find alot of information with references on the site

[psyah]

Re: some questions regarding Abu Bakr thread

@Texan_Dude

Buddy your comments show your lack of knowledge on this issue and yet trying to come up with excuses just to ignore the truth… Please read the following narration quoted in Sahih Bukhari… which was narrated no other than the daughter of Abu Bakar Bibi Ayesha…

al-Bukhari narrated on the authority of
Aisha that:
… Fatimah became angry with Abu Bakr and kept away from him, and did
not talk to him till she died. She remained alive for six months after
the death of the Prophet. When she died, her husband 'Ali, buried her
at night without informing Abu Bakr and he said the funeral prayer by
himself.
Sunni references:

• Sahih al-Bukhari, Chapter of “The battle of Khaibar”, Arabic-English,
  v5, tradition #546, pp 381-383, also v4, Tradition 325

Also please checkout the site http://www.abubakr.org/ you’ll find alot of information with references on the site

Peace Texan_Dude

I don’t think this hadith is from the Sahih collections of Imam Al-Bukhari …

However, from what you have quoted it is not clear that the cause of the anger of Fatimah (RA) was a result of Abu Bakr (RA) being correct, incorrect, or based on a misunderstanding. Also it is not clear that she Fatimah (RA) chose not speak with him (RA) or was not in a position not to speak with him (RA) or whether by not speaking to him it was out of protest or simply avoiding unnecessary contact with a non-mahram. It is all ambiguous!

Can you find this hadith on this site for me please …

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/

my browser doesn’t work too well … it may be an authentic hadith but I’ll let you find it for me, if you care to that is.

[Rebel_X]

Re: some questions regarding Abu Bakr thread

The religion was completed, the prophet said so, so did God. Any of the political squabbles after the religion was completed are just that, political struggles and dont change religion.

[Das_Reich]

Re: some questions regarding Abu Bakr thread

@Texan_Dude

[quote] lol... dude its amazing to see excuses people come up with just to ignore the truth and facts... buddy... what does the fact that his son stood by Hazrat Ali A.S..... has to do with Abu Bakr.... didn't her daughter came against Hazrat Ali A.S in jamal.... while his son was with Hazrat Ali... how do u explain your so called dad and son ideology in the light of this fact.. nice try though.....

who is defending that daughter of Abu bakr[ra] ? she went again the clear directives of the Prophet[saw] and Quran
and care to explain what you mean by "father and son ideology "

but why do you guys overlook the good things about abu bakr[ra] which no one can deny and which Imam Ali[as] always remembered despite his differences with him?

if you are so sincerely so devoted to imam Ali[as]'s cause why dont you commemorate the martyrdom of Abu bakr[ra]'s son ? I have never heard of his "majalis " being held was he any less of a martyr ?

[Das_Reich]

Re: some questions regarding Abu Bakr thread

@Rebel_X

The religion was completed, the prophet said so, so did God. Any of the political squabbles after the religion was completed are just that, political struggles and dont change religion.

these political squabbles dont change the fundamentals of religion true ....but in the course of these squabbles many Bidah entered the faith

[PyariCgudia]

Re: some questions regarding Abu Bakr thread

I think some people are taking the hadith's too literally.

Fatima Bibi might be the daughter of the Prophet and he may have praised her and loved her a great deal. But there is such a thing as a figure of speech. If he says "whoever hurts her, hurts me"...that's something lots of dads say about their daughters. Does that mean the daughter is INFALLIBLE? No.

People say all the time about others that so-and-so is jannati - does it mean they're actually going to jannat? Maybe, maybe not. Even if they are going to Jannat, is it not possible they might have ERRED (not sinned, but committed an ERROR)?

Comon folks. Stop reading into this stuff so much. This is why we have so many divisions in our Ummah.

[Das_Reich]

Re: some questions regarding Abu Bakr thread

@PyariCgudia

[QUOTE] If he says "whoever hurts her, hurts me"...that's something lots of dads say about their daughters

Prophet[saw] is not just another dad .....

[QUOTE]
People say all the time about others that so-and-so is jannati - does it mean they're actually going to jannat? Maybe, maybe not
[/QUOTE]

Prophet[saw] is not like any other person ...if he says janati then that person is surely janati ....problem is the authenticity of these narrations one sect will say they are other will say that they are not

[Texan_Dude]

Re: some questions regarding Abu Bakr thread

[quote=“Das_Reich”]

@Texan_Dude

who is defending that daughter of Abu bakr[ra] ? she went again the clear directives of the Prophet[saw] and Quran
and care to explain what you mean by "father and son ideology "

Buddy… I am just clarifying the ideology you were using my pointing out that Abu Bakr son was with Mawla Ali and using that to show Abu Bakr status… and I was showing the contradiction in your ideology by point out the fact that Abu Bakr daughter was in a battle against Hazrat Ali A.S… and her brother… which makes your argument a bit lame… Nice try though…

BTW can you please emphasize more on what you mean by clear directives of Prophet and quran… It would be nice if you take the pains to clarify things than just make stateme ts… I am sorry but we all might not be as scholarly as you… so please do us a favor so we can benefit from all these great statements you made…

@Das_Reich

but why do you guys overlook the good things about abu bakr[ra] which no one can deny and which Imam Ali[as] always remembered despite his differences with him?

Like before i would be highly obliged if you provide some refrences the to your following source of knowledge
which no one can deny and which Imam Ali[as] always remembered despite his differences with him?
Dude if you want I can make 101 statments like that if no wants references… I would really appreciate… before you make such statements about so high personality it would be nice if you provide references… I can make so many statements also… but for now I’ll point out the following hadith from Sahih Bukhari
Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 5.546 (page 381):

 ... She (Fatimah (AS)) remained alive for six (6) months after the
 death of the Prophet (PBUH). When she died, her husband Ali buried her
 at night without informing Abu Bakr and he said the funeral prayer
 himself ...

Brother you can’t ignore the fact that he offended Prophet by hurting Bibi Fatima Zehra S.A… I don’t want to point finger at somebody but I want to point out an hadith of Sahih Bukhari which talks about how some companions changed after Prophet P.B.U.H.

*Volume 8, Book 76, Number 585: *

Narrated Abu Hazim from Sahl bin Sa’d:
The Prophet said, “I am your predecessor (forerunner) at the Lake-Fount, and whoever will pass by there, he will drink from it and whoever will drink from it, he will never be thirsty. There will come to me some people whom I will recognize, and they will recognize me, but a barrier will be placed between me and them.” Abu Hazim added: An-Nu’man bin Abi 'Aiyash, on hearing me, said. “Did you hear this from Sahl?” I said, “Yes.” He said, " I bear witness that I heard Abu Said Al-Khudri saying the same, adding that the Prophet said: 'I will say: They are of me (i.e. my followers). It will be said, ‘You do not know what they innovated (new things) in the religion after you left’. I will say, 'Far removed, far removed (from mercy), those who changed (their religion) after me." Abu Huraira narrated that the Prophet said, “On the Day of Resurrection a group of companions will come to me, but will be driven away from the Lake-Fount, and I will say, ‘O Lord (those are) my companions!’ It will be said, 'You have no knowledge as to what they innovated after you left; they turned apostate as renegades (reverted from Islam).”

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/076.sbt.html#008.076.585

@Das_Reich

if you are so sincerely so devoted to imam Ali[as]'s cause why dont you commemorate the martyrdom of Abu bakr[ra]'s son ? I have never heard of his "majalis " being held was he any less of a martyr ?

Thats a good one… We all respect Abu Bakr son for his support for Hazrat Ali A.S but as far as majalises are concerned… lets look into what quran has to say about Ahleybait
[Shakir 42:23] That is of which Allah gives the good news to His servants, (to) those who believe and do good deeds. Say: I do not ask of you any reward for it but love for my near relatives; and whoever earns good, We give him more of good therein; surely Allah is Forgiving, Grateful.

And this is our way of showing love for Ahleybait by having jashn and majalises for them…

May Allah help us all follow the right path.. Ameen

[Texan_Dude]

Re: some questions regarding Abu Bakr thread

@pyasah

Peace Texan_Dude
I don’t think this hadith is from the Sahih collections of Imam Al-Bukhari …

Brother I was able to find the hadith that is in the www.abubakr.org website on the link that you gave me… this hadith talks about Abu Bakr angering Bibi Fatima Zehra S.A.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/053.sbt.html#004.053.325

Following is another hadith which is also narrated in Sahibh Bukhari
Allah’s Apostle said, “Fatima is a part of me, and he who makes her angry, makes me angry.”
Allah’s Apostle said, “Fatima is a part of me, and he who makes her angry, makes me angry.”
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/057.sbt.html#005.057.061

I hope the fact that both the hadith’s are present in the Sahih Bukhari link that you gave me convinces you that as per Sahih Bukhari… Bibi Fatima Zehra S.A was angry at Abu Bakar and whoever made Bibi Fatima Zehra S.A angry made Prophet P.B.U.H angry…

@pyasah

However, from what you have quoted it is not clear that the cause of the anger of Fatimah (RA) was a result of Abu Bakr (RA) being correct, incorrect, or based on a misunderstanding. Also it is not clear that she Fatimah (RA) chose not speak with him (RA) or was not in a position not to speak with him (RA) or whether by not speaking to him it was out of protest or simply avoiding unnecessary contact with a non-mahram. It is all ambiguous!

Please answer the questions below before I clear things up.

1. Do you believe every hadith that Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. gives is as per Allah SWT will?

2. Do you believe if Prophet P.B.U.H. ever give a hadith which would imply that any one who angered Bibi Fatima Zehra S.A. angered Habib-e-Khuda..Sardar-e-Ambiya… if Bibi Fatma Zehra S.A nauzubillah had the tendency to get anger on people for nauzubillah incorrect reasons…

3. Could the maslehat behind Prophet P.B.U.H. pointing out his ummah that whoever made Bibi Fatima Zehra S.A would indirectly made him angry… has a lesson for us to know who is righteous and who hurted Prophet P.B.U.H.

4. Keeping Prophet P.B.U.H. would Allah SWT reveal the following ayat in quran when Bibi nauzbillah would had tendency of getting angry for wrong reasons
   [Shakir 42:23] That is of which Allah gives the good news to His servants, (to) those who believe and do good deeds. Say: I do not ask of you any reward for it but love for my near relatives; and whoever earns good, We give him more of good therein; surely Allah is Forgiving, Grateful.

5. Would quran testify the purity of Ahleybait when nauzubillah the mother of leaders of heaven have the tendency of getting angry on people and indirectly hurting prophet P.B.U.H. for wrong reasons???
   And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance; and establish regular Prayer, and give regular Charity; and obey Allah and His Messenger. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless.[33:33]

Brother I believe the fact that Bibi Fatima Zehra S.A. stook up against Abu Bakr has a lot more to do besides just the land… She used fadak to unveil some big faces… Personally to me it shows how after the death of Prophet P.B.U.H. some people left the funeral of Prophet to resolve the issue of khilafat and went to the extend and they didn’t refraine from hurting the Prophet P.B.U.H… if you dig more into the issue you’ll see a contradiction between quran and hadith. Quran has the following ayat of Prophets leaving inheritance…
“And Solomon (Sulaymaan) inherited from David.” (Quran 27:16)
“(Zakariya prayed to Allah by saying)… Grant me a son from yourself, who inherits from me and inherit from the children of Jacob, and make him, O’ my Lord, the one with whom you are well-pleased.” (Quran 19:5-6).

Whereas Abu Bakr used a hadith that contradicted quran and implied that Prophet don’t leave inheritance and this goes back to the argument which I tried to make in the begining of the thread… where I mentioned the following hadith of Prophet
“Zayd said: ‘O brother, by God, I have become aged and old and I have forgotten some of what I used to remember from the Messenger of Allah , upon whom be Allah’s peace and benedictions. So accept what I narrate to you and as to what I don’t, trouble me not regarding it.’ Then he said: ‘One day the Messenger of Allah , upon whom be Allah’s peace and benedictions, addressed us near a pond called Khumm between Makkah and Madinah. He praised God and extolled Him and preached and reminded (us). Then he said, “Lo, O people, I am only a human being and I am about to respond to the messenger of my Lord *. I am leaving behind two precious things (thaqalayn) among you. The first of the two is the Book of Allah. In it is guidance and light. So get hold of the Book of Allah and adhere to it.” Then he urged and motivated (us) regarding the Book of Allah . Then he said, “And my Ahl al­Bayt (family). I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahl al­Bayt. I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahl al­Bayt. I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahl al­Bayt”’” …
(Sahih Muslim, part 7, Kitab fada’il al­Sahabah [Maktabat wa Matbaat Muhammad Ali Subayh wa Awladuhu: Cairo] pp. 122-123.)

and we all know Ahleybait has alwayz been there to defend islam… if it was kerbala, khyber. Imam Jaffar-e-Sadiq AS grandson of Imam Hussain A.S. was the teacher of 2 sunni Imams Imam Hanafia and Imam Malid… and yet some people chose to accept Imam Hanafia and Imam Malik as there Imams rather than their teacher who was from Ahley bait…even Imam Mahdi is going to be from Ahley bait … even quran talks about the purity of Ahleybait.

A contradicting hadith to this talks about Prophet P.B.U.H. leaving behind quran and sunnah… which makes me wonder… that quran has the following verse
“Today I have perfected your religion and completed my favour upon you, and I was satisfied that Islam be your religion.” (Qur’an 5:3)
This raises the question if Islam was perfect during the time of Prophet P.B.U.H. than why would he ask people to follow sunnah and not mention a source of sunnah… most of the sunnah and hadith books were compiled after the death of Prophet and this raises an issue of correct and dhaeef hadith… gupshup is a prefect example where people pick and choose hadith of their interest …

I didn’t mean to offend anyone and apologize if I did… May Allah SWT help us all follow the right path.. Ameen*

[psyah]

Re: some questions regarding Abu Bakr thread

@Texan_Dude

Brother I was able to find the hadith that is in the www.abubakr.org website on the link that you gave me… this hadith talks about Abu Bakr angering Bibi Fatima Zehra S.A.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/053.sbt.html#004.053.325

Peace Texan_Dude

JazakAllah Khair for the post for the sake of this thread I’ll post it here. I have ignored the rest of your post for the time being and inshaAllah we can come back to it later.

Volume 4, Book 53, Number 325:
Narrated 'Aisha:

(mother of the believers) After the death of Allah 's Apostle Fatima the daughter of Allah’s Apostle asked Abu Bakr As-Siddiq to give her, her share of inheritance from what Allah’s Apostle had left of the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting) which Allah had given him. Abu Bakr said to her, “Allah’s Apostle said, 'Our property will not be inherited, whatever we (i.e. prophets) leave is Sadaqa (to be used for charity).” Fatima, the daughter of Allah’s Apostle got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died. Fatima remained alive for six months after the death of Allah’s Apostle.

She used to ask Abu Bakr for her share from the property of Allah’s Apostle which he left at Khaibar, and Fadak, and his property at Medina (devoted for charity). Abu Bakr refused to give her that property and said, **“I will not leave anything Allah’s Apostle used to do, because I am afraid that if I left something from the Prophet’s tradition, then I would go astray.” **(Later on) Umar gave the Prophet’s property (of Sadaqa) at Medina to 'Ali and 'Abbas, but he withheld the properties of Khaibar and Fadak in his custody and said, “These two properties are the Sadaqa which Allah’s Apostle used to use for his expenditures and urgent needs. Now their management is to be entrusted to the ruler.” (Az-Zuhrl said, “They have been managed in this way till today.”)

This hadith is narrated by Aisha (RA). Not all hadith are sayings of prophet Muhammad (SAW) Much of them are opinions of others. What do you think of her? It is her (RA) thinking that Fatimah (RA) became angry. However, the person against whom you lay blame to had no motive i.e. he did not benefit materially in any way for not giving up what was being asked for. He (RA) was denying that there was a share, and he did so based on the statement above in bold text. Now either you believe all of the hadith or you reject all of it. Why are you picking the parts you wish to believe to justify your position?

The essence of this hadith is not about people getting angry, rather it is about doing what the prophet (SAW) did. As a Sunnah he did not undertake an activity that he felt was out of normal procedures. He provided justification.

Also we can use another hadith where prophet Muhammad (SAW) advised “don’t get angry”, “don’t get angry” and another where it is said that anger comes from Shaitan. Why if you believe this hadith do you not make these conclusions instead.

Rather, I choose to look at the statement “she became angry” as an interpretation of Aisha (RA) not as a gospel truth, how do we know what Fatimah (RA) had in her heart?

This hadith may be authentic as far as it is muttawatir, but it is a gharib hadith in that it’s meanings are not clear to deduce things from because opinion is surrounding the fact in the narration of the quote of Abu Bakr (RA).

If you note the hadith you have quoted is not the same as the one I asked for either it is only similar to it but it is not that hadith. The hadith I had asked for that is on that abubakr site reference you have given is not in the Sahih collection of Al-Bukhari … is it?

[Lusi]

Re: some questions regarding Abu Bakr thread

@PyariCgudia

I think some people are taking the hadith's too literally.

Fatima Bibi might be the daughter of the Prophet and he may have praised her and loved her a great deal. But there is such a thing as a figure of speech. If he says "whoever hurts her, hurts me"...that's something lots of dads say about their daughters. Does that mean the daughter is INFALLIBLE? No.

People say all the time about others that so-and-so is jannati - does it mean they're actually going to jannat? Maybe, maybe not. Even if they are going to Jannat, is it not possible they might have ERRED (not sinned, but committed an ERROR)?

Comon folks. Stop reading into this stuff so much. This is why we have so many divisions in our Ummah.

I normally stay away from all these shia sunni debates and stuff but your comment has forced me to reply. You certainly don't know what you are taking. Please either refrain from participating if you don't have any knowledge on what you are saying. And if you really have to participate then please first get get your facts straight, read some books on Prophet pbuh and his family or browse this information on some authetic websites.

Neither Prophet pbuh nor his (pbuh) daughter (a.s./r.a) were "any people" that we can talk about them the way you have. Allah made them infallible.

Sorry, but your reply has extremely disappointed me.

[psyah]

Re: some questions regarding Abu Bakr thread

I normally stay away from all these shia sunni debates and stuff but your comment has forced me to reply. You certainly don't know what you are taking. Please either refrain from participating if you don't have any knowledge on what you are saying. And if you really have to participate then please first get get your facts straight, read some books on Prophet pbuh and his family or browse this information on some authetic websites.

Neither Prophet pbuh nor his (pbuh) daughter (a.s./r.a) were "any people" that we can talk about them the way you have. Allah made them infallible.

Sorry, but your reply has extremely disappointed me.

Peace Lusi

I cannot be shocked more ... Infallible is an Attribute of Allah (SWT).

[psyah]

Re: some questions regarding Abu Bakr thread

Peace again

Now I can address the rest of you post ...

Please answer the questions below before I clear things up. 1. Do you believe every hadith that Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. gives is as per Allah SWT will?

Every statement of Muhammad (SAW) when he said it was from Allah (SWT) is so, unless he himself says that it is from himself. Every hadith? Muhammad (SAW) doesn’t give hadith. Hadith are collections of various people’s sayings about Muhammad (SAW) what he (SAW) did and what he (SAW) said.

1. Do you believe if Prophet P.B.U.H. ever give a hadith which would imply that any one who angered Bibi Fatima Zehra S.A. angered Habib-e-Khuda..Sardar-e-Ambiya...... if Bibi Fatma Zehra S.A nauzubillah had the tendency to get anger on people for nauzubillah incorrect reasons....

There are two questions here:
- Do I believe that Muhammad (SAW) said whoever angers Fatimah (RA) angers him (SAW) … answer is yes.
- Do I believe Faitmah (RA) had tendency to get angry on people for incorrect reasons? … Actually I believe it is incorrect to get angry.

1. Could the maslehat behind Prophet P.B.U.H. pointing out his ummah that whoever made Bibi Fatima Zehra S.A would indirectly made him angry.... has a lesson for us to know who is righteous and who hurted Prophet P.B.U.H.

That would be interpretation, and interpretation always rests on our judgments there is no way that can be ratified for us to make it a point of aqeedah, we can trust our interpretations but we cannot rule out other possibilities. Besides without knowing the context to this statement we cannot know the limits to apply our interpretation. Even if we know who hurted Prophet Muhammad (SAW) it doesn’t mean that we can defame them or disrespect them, nor is it important for us to know who is righteous because we are not the Judges, Allah (SWT) is The Judge. Washi the person who, when non-Muslim martyred the uncle of Muhammad (SAW) became Muslim he was forgiven despite hurting the prophet Muhammad (SAW). Also Muhammad (SAW) had been reported to have been upset at his wives for a disagreement at times, but this does not mean that we disrespect them. We need to understand their human-ness and his ability to forgive and forget.

Also look at the wisdom in other areas of Islam where those who die in a state of injustice then their justice is given to them in the hereafter. Would it not be better for Fatimah (RA) to have extra reward in the hereafter rather than get some piece of wealth of the dunya? Do you not think that is what Allah (SWT) and his apostle (SAW) had in store for the ahl al-bayt? Is that not why Muhammad (SAW) decided to live a poor life in this world because he was not attached to it?

1. Keeping Prophet P.B.U.H. would Allah SWT reveal the following ayat in quran when Bibi nauzbillah would had tendency of getting angry for wrong reasons [Shakir 42:23] That is of which Allah gives the good news to His servants, (to) those who believe and do good deeds. Say: I do not ask of you any reward for it but love for my near relatives; and whoever earns good, We give him more of good therein; surely Allah is Forgiving, Grateful.

I get this translation:

1. That is (the Paradise) whereof Allâh gives glad tidings to His slaves who believe (in the Oneness of Allâh Islâmic Monotheism) and do righteous good deeds. Say (O Muhammad ): "No reward do I ask of you for this except to be kind to me for my kinship with you." And whoever earns a good righteous deed, We shall give him an increase of good in respect thereof. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Ready to appreciate (the deeds of those who are obedient to Him).

1. Would quran testify the purity of Ahleybait when nauzubillah the mother of leaders of heaven have the tendency of getting angry on people and indirectly hurting prophet P.B.U.H. for wrong reasons???? And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance; and establish regular Prayer, and give regular Charity; and obey Allah and His Messenger. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless.[33:33]

There is no certification of purity here. It is a requirement from the women of Ahl al-bayt to remain in their houses quietly and pray and obey Allah (SWT) and his Messenger (SAW) in order for them to be pure and spotless.

Brother I believe the fact that Bibi Fatima Zehra S.A. stook up against Abu Bakr has a lot more to do besides just the land... She used fadak to unveil some big faces.... Personally to me it shows how after the death of Prophet P.B.U.H. some people left the funeral of Prophet to resolve the issue of khilafat and went to the extend and they didn't refraine from hurting the Prophet P.B.U.H..... if you dig more into the issue you'll see a contradiction between quran and hadith. Quran has the following ayat of Prophets leaving inheritance... "And Solomon (Sulaymaan) inherited from David." (Quran 27:16) "(Zakariya prayed to Allah by saying)... Grant me a son from yourself, who inherits from me and inherit from the children of Jacob, and make him, O' my Lord, the one with whom you are well-pleased." (Quran 19:5-6).

There is no contradiction here either. Inheritance in its legal sense is different from inherit in it’s Qur’anic sense with regard to prophethood.

19:5. "And Verily! I fear my relatives after me, since my wife is barren. So give me from Yourself an heir,

19:6. "Who shall inherit me, and inherit (also) the posterity of Ya'qûb (Jacob) (inheritance of the religious knowledge and Prophethood, not the wealth, etc.). And make him, my Lord, one with whom You are Well-pleased!".

Whereas Abu Bakr used a hadith that contradicted quran and implied that Prophet don't leave inheritance and this goes back to the argument which I tried to make in the begining of the thread... where I mentioned the following hadith of Prophet "Zayd said: 'O brother, by God, I have become aged and old and I have forgotten some of what I used to remember from the Messenger of Allah , upon whom be Allah's peace and benedictions. So accept what I narrate to you and as to what I don't, trouble me not regarding it.' Then he said: 'One day the Messenger of Allah , upon whom be Allah's peace and benedictions, addressed us near a pond called Khumm between Makkah and Madinah. He praised God and extolled Him and preached and reminded (us). Then he said, "Lo, O people, I am only a human being and I am about to respond to the messenger of my Lord *. I am leaving behind two precious things (thaqalayn) among you. The first of the two is the Book of Allah. In it is guidance and light. So get hold of the Book of Allah and adhere to it." Then he urged and motivated (us) regarding the Book of Allah . Then he said, "And my Ahl al*Bayt (family). I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahl al*Bayt. I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahl al*Bayt. I urge you to remember God regarding my Ahl al*Bayt"'" .... (Sahih Muslim, part 7, Kitab fada'il al*Sahabah [Maktabat wa Matbaat MuhammadAli Subayh wa Awladuhu: Cairo] pp. 122-123.)

I am not qualified to comment on hadith al-thaqalayn partly because I do not know for sure what they are referring to, Qur’an and Hadith or Qur’an and Ahl-al-bayt … and also it is not clear why ahl-al-bayt are being reminded. It seems as though we should adhere to Qur’an and take care of the family of Muhammad (SAW) as our own. They were his concerns and he voiced them. It seems also that this event had taken place after the completion of the Deen and the last ayat of the Qur’an had been revealed however other sources say it was a regular thing that was preached. Authenticity is a thing that should be left for the scholars.

and we all know Ahleybait has alwayz been there to defend islam... if it was kerbala, khyber. Imam Jaffar-e-Sadiq AS grandson of Imam Hussain A.S. was the teacher of 2 sunni Imams Imam Hanafia and Imam Malid.... and yet some people chose to accept Imam Hanafia and Imam Malik as there Imams rather than their teacher who was from Ahley bait...even Imam Mahdi is going to be from Ahley bait ... even quran talks about the purity of Ahleybait.

This is an emotional argument there are many people in the Sunni groups who are ahl-al-bayt, but the early leaders I agree are not.

A contradicting hadith to this talks about Prophet P.B.U.H. leaving behind quran and sunnah.... which makes me wonder... that quran has the following verse "Today I have perfected your religion and completed my favour upon you, and I was satisfied that Islam be your religion." (Qur'an 5:3) This raises the question if Islam was perfect during the time of Prophet P.B.U.H. than why would he ask people to follow sunnah and not mention a source of sunnah.... most of the sunnah and hadith books were compiled after the death of Prophet and this raises an issue of correct and dhaeef hadith... gupshup is a prefect example where people pick and choose hadith of their interest ...

Hadith of interest … yes you are right people do pick hadith of interest they don’t look at all of them in context to one another … do they! Allah (SWT) has said the religion is perfect, not that the Qur’an is the only thing to follow. The Sunnah is that what puts the Qur’an in to context, because it is documentary evidence of how the Qur’an was put into practice by the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and the Salaf.

I didn't mean to offend anyone and apologize if I did... May Allah SWT help us all follow the right path.. Ameen

JazakAllah Khair no offence taken*

[Lusi]

Re: some questions regarding Abu Bakr thread

Peace Lusi

I cannot be shocked more ... Infallible is an Attribute of Allah (SWT).

And Allah can make his Prophet infallible for us.

Peace-

[psyah]

Re: some questions regarding Abu Bakr thread

And Allah can make his Prophet infallible for us.

Peace-

Peace Lusi

Surah Ikhlas please

also read Surah Abasa

[Lusi]

Re: some questions regarding Abu Bakr thread

I know what Surah Ikhlas means and by no means I am comparing Prophet pbuh with Allah (nauzbillah), if that is what you are thinking. But Allah has gifted Prophet pbuh with exalted standards of character for us to follow. His (pbuh) life is made a living example of Quran for us. Allah has asked us to take guidance from Quran and the life of Prophet pbuh. Allah has made him a blessing on all mankind. I know in Quran Allah said that tell them you are made from clay like everyone. But Allah didn’t say that so we would actually start talking about him (pbuh) like every other man, Allah said that so people won’t take him (pbuh) as God because Allah has made him (pbuh) fool proof for our guidance that it was and is easy to worship him (nauzbillah) by the people of that time and any time to come. Allah also said that I have made you (pbuh) a blessing on the mankind, send you (pbuh) as a universal messenger with guidance and truth for everyone to follow. When Allah has given such high ranks to his messenger (pbuh), made him a perfect example for us to seek guidance then who the hell we are to talk about him (pbuh) or consider him (pbuh) as “any man.”

Now I hope you do understand why I said what I said and if you still want to misinterpret my statement then there is nothing I can do...

Peace-