So what sort of a muslim are you? Do Reply! :)

Aapca · November 3, 2000, 9:07am

**Urrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.Stop.

Don't pass a judgement on some one if you are not sure of his intentions.**

***Brothers & Sisters in Islam I think Pristine's intention is not to pass a judgement on some one and in such an issue. He I think is also well aware of it.

I think his intention is to encourage people to be a better Muslim. Analyze themselves and improve to what Allah S.W.T. wants us to be... A perfect Momin.

It is though TRUE that the Judgement lies solely in Hands of Allah.

Be ware,if some one thinks that all of his life's unmissed Ibadah and good deeds will take him alone to Jannah. He is wrong.

With out the mercy of Allah SubhanahoWaTaala one will not enter Jannah. With the Rehma (mercy)of Allah S.W.T. and by virtue of his Ibadah and good deeds one will be highly rewarded.InshaAllah***

**Pristine Brother
I am striving to achieve the Rehma of Allah.
I have many flaws in me and ask for his forgiveness. I am in search of truth with in different sects of Islam that what is right and what is against the clear signs of Nature (Qudrat). I change my believes and acts which I find contradictory to Islam. The Islam which Quran teaches. The Islam which Muhammad Sallal-laho-alaihay-wasallam taught us and left examples for us to follow.

On the day of judgement I will be questioned about my Iman. Not wether I am Sunni, Shia, Salafi,Maliki, Hambali,Shafai etc.
The answer to that question is and is only
There is no God but Allah and Muhammad S.A.W. is His(final & last)Messenger.

This Kalima is so strong that if Muslim understands its true meaning and act on it. InsaAllah by the Rehma of Allah Subhanaho wataala they will find Paradise waiting for them.
One reminder to me also that Alah has already decided about one class of people that they shall not be forgiven no matter what.Who are those people.?
People who have done SHIRK, associated Allah with some one in any sense or form are guaranteed HELL for ever.
Other than that Allah can forgive any minor or major sin if He wishes so.

I ask Allah for His mercy and to save me from any kind of Shirk.

Brother Pristine it has gone a little lengthy. Please gorgive me.

If I am wrong some where please you people point me out so that I can correct myself.

O Allah grant me the death of Shaheed. Amin**

**~~~Performace of good DEEDS avoids the evil ending.~~~

He, who advises for the GOOD, is similar (in rewards)to the doer of it.**
(Sahih Al-Jami 3797 & 3399 resp.)

[This message has been edited by Aapca (edited November 03, 2000).]

Mr_Partypooper · November 3, 2000, 11:26am

Allah knows best...

They shoot partypoopers, don't they?

CoolDude · November 3, 2000, 11:40am

This post is being taken out of context in my opinion.

If you do not want to answer, then don’t. I don’t think Pristine had any harmful intentions in this post.. right Pristine?

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

It’s the same as somebody asking “Do you pray?”

You can turn around and say “thats between my and Allah” or you can answer the question with a yes or a no.

At the end of the day it’s up to you.

Only Allah knows what is in our hearts.

Pristine · November 3, 2000, 3:56pm

(This post became so big, it wouldn't go, so I have broken it down in two, bear with me)

First of all, I must thank all of you to read and respond to the post... Time difference can be a nuisance, bcz I went to sleep here (nightie nightie) and the post here got a bit out of hand :) I am really grateful to Cooldude and Aapca in trying to bring back some perspective.

Ok, so here is a pbpr (point by point reply), s'il vous plait.... ;)

CoolGuy:
You are absolutely right. Riya (showoff) is prohibited in Islam. Very few of us can claim complete piety and even fewer would ever admit it. However the category of "Momin" was not created to allow show off, but to set out, what in my opinion is the 'ultimate' state. Not many of us score 1600 in SAT's or get 100/100 in our exams (life IMO is an exam, afterall), but that position is still there, just for the sake of completeness. The point of this post is explained below. Read on..... :)

Sadiaa:
Thanks....for the honesty. Most of us are 'C' anyway..... Read on pls... :)

The Watcher:
There is a hadith, which I am sure you are aware of..."O people! why do you say things which you do not (yourself) act upon". IMO, this clearly means that if we don't practice what we speak, then we shouldn't preach it. In your case, I have been fortunate enough to read many of your posts. I think you are a remarkably intelligent person with a gift for research and an ability to put forward articulate arguments. With the sort of knoweldge you have, it will be a shame to even consider that your life itself is not an embodiment of all those attributes. I am sure, in your real life you also implement all those fine traits which you implore us to adopt through your posts. I borrowed the signature of Aapca to emphasize the nobility of your actions (Sahih Al Jami): "He, who advises for the good, is similar (in rewards) to the doer of it.". Keep it up, and read on, plz.... :)

Zalim:
So you are a follower of Ahmadiyya sect. By laws presently applicable in Pakistan, you will be deemed as a non-muslim, but that doesn't make you are a "kaafir". The word "kaafir" IMO refers to a non-believer (I associate this word - rightly or wrongly - with atheists). Through my visit to Gupshup, I had the inclination to find out more abt the beliefs of Ahmadiyaa sect. From the info available on some of the websites, I believe I now have a better understanding of your beliefs. However, I will keep my opinion on this matter to myself, as I believe this forum is not an appropriate place (yet!) to debate such contentious issues.... :)

amy:
The intention of keeping the muslims of the world united is indeed what we all desire. These categories are not to split muslims in groups, but rather for us to evaluate, how we are carrying on with our lives. Read on, plz... :)

Musalman:
Again, you are absolutely right. Anyone who says the Kalima and believes in the Prophet Muhammad (SAWW) is part of the Ummah. And indeed Allah alone will provide us with our report cards on the Day of Judgement. As muslims, we hope and pray that Allah will forgive our sins and enter us in paradise. Even the personalities as pious as prophets (SAWW) were constantly asking forgiveness, whereas we all know that a prophet is "Masoom" (blemishless). So, this is indeed a sure sign for us that we must constantly ask forgiveness for our sins. We know, in our hearts, how sinful (or otherwise) we are. This post is taking a different approach to another issue. Read on...and you will have a better understanding, and if you choose not to respond, that is indeed fine, and its your choice. Do let us know your opinion, though.... Thanks :)

Girl from Quraysh:
"Allah Knows Best" certainly refers to the characteristic of Allah, that he knows everything, the truth, the falsehood, whats in our hearts and whats in the hearts of other people. The idea here is not to point fingers at others, the idea is to analyze OURSELVES, and realize what are we doing and where are we going. Read on, plz.... :)

Hinna:
You try your hardest, and that is indeed what we can all hope for. Whether we succeed or not is for Allah to decide. If you really try enough, you will seek knowledge and modify your life, if you feel you were doing something wrong earlier. That, IMO qualfies you as a category B - i.e. True Muslim. ... :)

Aapca and CoolDude...I already thanked you, didn't I? ;)

(Second part of this post to follow)

Pristine · November 3, 2000, 4:08pm

Ok, so here is the promised explanation...;)

We all are bombarded by the phrases "liberal" muslim and "fundamental" muslim, everyday. What does it mean? Aren't we supposed to be just muslims...? I mean, a person is either a muslim or he is not. What does liberal muslim mean? I thought about it and realized that this concept refers to our actions and not our beliefs.

We all know, though some ppl don't admit it, that Islam is a complete way of life (Deen). It divides all our actions in five states, which range from direct orders to do things (fard) to direct orders of prohibited actions (haram). In between there are recommended (masbooh) and disliked (makrooh). We all know that there may be differences of opinion amongst Islamic scholars on interpretation of issues. These differences of opinion started even right after our Prophet (SAWW) departed, so indeed if two scholars differ on any issue, it is neither strange nor should be condemned. This is a capability of human mind to interpret things in different ways.

To get back to the point... I see more and more instances where muslims these days take the following attitudes ...

Don't give me knowledge - If we don't know the Islamic ruling on a matter, we can't be held responsible if we (unknowingly) violate it. They make is sound so easy....
I don't agree to this. It doesn't make sense - Well, we have been provided a mind so that we can come up with our own interpretations. So if we feel that this ruling "doesn't make sense" then it probably is wrong. That the authentic scholars of islam spend their lifetimes gaining knowledge abt every aspect of Islam before they start giving any opinion/ruling/fatwa is not important.
Ok, so I am doing wrong, but its not a big deal - Right, so we know we are wrong, and we will keep on doing it, bcz in our opinion its not a "big deal". In our heart of hearts we know that Allah will forgive our sins.
Islam is not that strict. What you are saying is 1400 years old. Grow up - Again we can decide for ourselves how should we live our lives. Who is anyone else to butt in and preach us?
Ok, so I am wrong. But I will repent before I die, and the slate will be cleaned - Okay, so you know when you are gonna die, right? Bad choice, friends, very bad choice!

To give you some examples, let me state some islamic rulings and some typical responses. These rulings may not be beyond "difference of opinion", but I am trying to give rulings where a majority of scholars agree. None of us is perfect. There are matters, where sadly, I do know the ruling, or I suspect what the ruling might be, but I still do those things. Sad but true. This is true for most of us. I salute those who can say they always modify their lives when they become aware/convinced of an islamic ruling and realize that what they were doing earlier was wrong. The purpose of this post is not to discuss these rulings but to illustrate the attitudes.. (so please don't go off on a tangent.)

Don't watch movies and TV with lewd scenes - Come on, I am mature enough to take these. Its fun, why do you make out Islam as so intrusive in our personal lives.
A women should cover everything except her face, hands (and feet) - Nah! I don't look good in a hijab. Are you a moulvi? I can do whatever I want, its none of your concern what I wear, just keep your own eyes low, ok!
A man should cover (at a minimum) from his naval to his knee - Are you kiddin? I can't play football wearing bermudas. I am swimming, and THIS is a swimming suite. So keep your old-fashined opinion to yourself.
Modern day commercial interest is riba, and is haram - You moulvis! you don't know zilch abt economics. There is a difference of opinion in this matter. So what? I am not expoliting the poor. This is inflation, dear!
Islam does not permit having girlfriends or pre-marital sex - I am not THAT old fashioned! We are only friends. There is nothing improper. Everyone is doing it.
Don't lie. Always speak the truth - This is a white lie. It doesn't harm anyone. If I make up an excuse why I came late to the class, whats the big deal, huh?

These, my friends, are the growing attitiude. Whether its right or wrong, I will let you decide. We must at all times keep anlyzing ourselves for our own actions and attitudes.

For those of you who objected that we must not create categories. There are a couple of ahadith.

No Arabi is superior to an Ajami (non Arab), nor an ajami is superior to an arabi. (The) superior is the one (who is) greater in Taqwa - So infact there are those muslims who are greater in taqwa than the rest. These are not categories but an incentive.
How can a knowledgable person be equal to an unknowledgable person - Again this is an incentive to gain more and more knoweldge.

This is similar to a class. The teacher grades the students. Okay so you are an A+ student, and you, my dear, is B, and you are an F... These are not to creare divisions in the class, but an incentive to do better next time. Or to keep doing better.

But there is no compulsion. "I am happy what I am and where I am, so why should I change?". Or. "Bad boys have all the fun :)". Or. "I don't agree to the grading. The books are wrong, I know I am right".

Only Allah knows what is in your hearts. And probably you also have a good enough idea in what is in YOUR hearts. Now read again my first post, and see if you wanna be a Momin, or a true muslim or a typical muslim or a liberal muslim or a muslim-by-name. Whatever you are, may you be successful in whatever your aims are.

Stay Cool!

Assalam O Alaikum!

Zalim · November 3, 2000, 4:23pm

[quote]
Originally posted by Pristine:
** From the info available on some of the websites, I believe I now have a better understanding of your beliefs.**
[/quote]

Pristine yaar, they don’t have any web-sites, where did you learnt all that?

So you also think for a better understanding (be it a religion or any other matter) the hates site are an authentic resource than the original source? hummm interesting.

Perhaps we can debate if you like? (on another thread, obviously) <- EDITED TO CLEAR THE POINT)

[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited November 03, 2000).]

NYAhmadiX · November 3, 2000, 4:24pm

I am an Outstanding Muslim. Don’t fit easily in any of the above categories. I consider myself, like Zalim, to be a Ghair Sarkari Muslim. In addition, I don’t believe that anyone can tell anyone else whether one is Muslim or not. Prophets were nothing more than poise and good folks who preached humanity. The concept of oneness of Allah or finality of prophethood is nonessential and silly stuff (it gets even more convoluted when Firka Bazi comes into picture). What is more important is how we relate to our fellow human beings and with the rest of the environment.

Pristine · November 3, 2000, 4:34pm

Absolutely true…But YOU can tell YOURSELF if YOU are a good muslim or not. This post is about YOU and not about OTHERS.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Yup… I designed one category for this too…

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

See, I am clever! LOL…

Zalim
Not really (to debate). I searched on Ahmadi/Ahmedi etc and there were some speeches from Mirza Tahir and then there was a site for Lahori group. Then I realized that Ahmediyya sect had two sub-sects, Lahori and Qadiyan group. Then I rounded up one of my friends, who is Ahmadiyya (Mirza Tahir’s side, which I presume you are too), and I asked him certain questions on his beliefs. What he told me weren’t too objectionable (the concept of zili-nabi and wali), although I don’t subscribe to this thinking. (They were amusing especially re: Christ.)

So…no dice, here, mate!

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Anyway, this post is not abt shias or sunnis or ahmadiyya sect or wahabi or whatever. This is abt all of us, who call ourselves ‘muslim’ (or Ghair sarkari musalman). This is not whether your belief or my belief is correct. This is whether we act upon things which we are told. So, I think we can take your point off-line or on some other thread.

I will like to hear your views on my last post.

Stay Cool!

Pakiice · November 3, 2000, 4:48pm

Salamz,
ahem NY ahmedi.. umm O.K..

Well so I kinda sorta get what you are saying and pardon me if I am totally off cause going a lil off subject or not really understanding certain things is my forte.
Now, I consider myself a Muslim who is most definitely striving in my Deen. What I believe is that you can never stop learning and grasping knowledge about Islam.. There is a limit of learning Worldly sciences and whatever but in my Deen(Islam) there is an infinte amount of knowlege.. WE cannot categorize ourselves as Muslima Blah or Muslim Blah.. So now you are categorizing Muslims because you want us to see how muslims are now a days.. Is that it?? And kind of for us to see where we think we stand?umm right? Because none of us really know where we Actually stand..yes , no , maybe so...

Rooster-Blues · November 3, 2000, 5:27pm

[quote]
Originally posted by Pristine:
**So what sort of a muslim are you?

Do you folks care to share if these groups are accurate?
And which group do you consider yourself to be in?

Be honest, ok! :)**
[/quote]

Who gave you the right to ‘categorize’ and generalize Muslims into groups? .. Generalization is the first from of ignorance and JAHLAT… as a Muslim (every Muslim) it is our basic belief that Allah and only Allah is the judge of a your being a Muslim .. true deeds evil or good are not decide by you .. As a Muslim you should not judge your fellow Muslim by your own experience or enlightenment… Categorization like the one you came up with .. is exactly what is the root cause of our misery today… this kind of generalization ultimately leads to bigotry, hatred and intolerance towards others who do not fit into your righteous holy classification system… look for commonality among your selves go beyond this carp of who is better than who based on which group you belong

Hey one more thing
These things are hard to explain
For some it seems strange... to swallow
The frontier of our minds
Is the last place we find
But maybe the first place we should go

Pristine · November 3, 2000, 6:37pm

RB

The last I checked there was freedom of expression. If not, maybe next time I will get my posts cleared from you before posting!

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

In any case, I have already responded to this particular allegation (creating divisions). This post is not about me deciding what is good or evil. This ia about YOU deciding what is Right or Wrong for YOU. Do YOU always do the right thing? Do YOU always do what YOU know is the right thing?

It is not someone else saying “you do this” and you say “Mind your own business”. This is abt what you realize is right, and then simply not doing it just bcz its no fun or its too darn difficult.

Every person is different. They respond to different situations in a different manner. You don’t take isolated examples of individuals to prove anything. Similarly you don’t take 1 billion examples to prove what each muslim is doing. Everyone talks from his/her own experience. If you have a different experience, and you are willing to share it, go right ahead. If you choose to keep it within yourself, you can do so. Just as you have a right to express your opinion, allow the same courtesy to others. If you choose to keep your opinions to yourself, fine.

You just accused me of being the root cause of misery today. Really?

Pakiice
Well, you are partially right. I didn’t categorize Muslims because I want to see how muslims are now a days. I want the muslims to see themselves how they are nowadays. I want you to think “Oh, ok…so I am doing this thing, because I think I am right, not necessarily bcz its the right thing to do”. Only you (and Allah) knows what is inside you. Me or someone else can not assume to know. We can guess, though, from your actions. We can be wrong.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

PS. BTW, RB, your guppie face is very appropriate!

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

J/k.

kohal · November 3, 2000, 7:20pm

I was talking to a Hindu friend of mine the other day...
He asks what am i, "A Sikh, Muslim, ?"
I go Muslim.
He goes, "Pure muslim, or...?" (cuz really, muslim girls around are all Ismaili girls -- not that i'm implying anything here).
At his question, I go, "Well, i dun't really consider who's a 0% muslim & who's a 100% Muslim. You either are one or you're not."

Um, wat's the point of this classification which type you are. & neways, um, some of us keep changing....at one phase in our life, we were actually "good muslims" then at others we weren't. 'Matters with hos consistent you are with being one of the true muslims....
Know what i mean?

Rooster-Blues · November 3, 2000, 7:28pm

[quote]
Originally posted by Pristine:
***RB*

The last I checked there was freedom of expression. If not, maybe next time I will get my posts cleared from you before posting! :)
I have not stepped on your right of freedom of expression … where did I say YOU did not have the right to do so .. hey I have a different view from you and I like it when YOU have the ability to think and express YOUR way .. and YOU should do so

In any case, I have already responded to this particular allegation (creating divisions). This post is not about me deciding what is good or evil. This ia about YOU deciding what is Right or Wrong for YOU. Do YOU always do the right thing? Do YOU always do what YOU know is the right thing?

It is not someone else saying "you do this" and you say "Mind your own business". This is abt what you realize is right, and then simply not doing it just bcz its no fun or its too darn difficult.
Well dude you already have put criteria to judge ‘YOU’ by other ‘YOU’ …

You just accused me of being the root cause of misery today. Really?
I did not accuse you of anything .. the only thing I implied here is the scope of the post .. I am in no position to accuse some one of evil or nobility .. I do not know your intentions .. for what I think YOU did it for a good purpose .. but the way you did it is self defeating … when some one identify himself as a part of a group for the reasons being superior than it will automatically leads to hate, arrogance and intolerance

PS. BTW, RB, your guppie face is very appropriate! :) J/k.**
[/quote]

Yep thanks for the compliment (if it was one !) .. what it means…you should not judge anyone or anything from its appearance .. you have a powerful mind installed in you and that’s where you should think from .. that’s what the blind fold indicates ..
I did not mean to offend you .. my whole point was about the article itself .. not you as a person .

Hey one more thing
These things are hard to explain
For some it seems strange... to swallow
The frontier of our minds
Is the last place we find
But maybe the first place we should go

khan_sahib · November 3, 2000, 7:35pm

I feel good about myself when I saw the rating but Wallah Alam (Allah knows better).

One thing dangerous that people who follow their fore fathers and even after understanding and finding the right ruling don't follow it then they should take care because how would they differentiate themselves with the people during the time of prophet(pbuh). These people when approached said to prophet you are right but how do you expect us to leave our practices of our fore fathers.

So I would request people to understand before they rate themselves. Also, please pristine sahib avoid these type of posts which confuse muslims and can become food to lead them to hell fire.

Pristine · November 3, 2000, 7:54pm

No, the criteria is indeed based on what YOU think is right. Ofcourse, the examples I could give are what I feel/believe is right. This is just to give you an idea. So, YOU decide for yourself, on matters where you believe whats right, whether you do those things as well.

I am assuming you are a muslim. The criteria for superiority (taqwa: closest meaning - piety) is not defined by me. It is defined by the Prophet of Islam (SAWW) in his address to the muslims on the occassion of his only Hajj. There is no dispute on the words. You may still choose to disregard these words. You can say these words are out-dated. This concept of superiority leads to intolerance, hate and arrogance. You have a right to your opinion. What can I say? When some one is pious (mutaqi), IMO the last characteristics he will associate with himself will be hate, arrogance and intolerance. But I don’t know, bcz I am not one!

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

You hardly know me, so obviously I knew you are commenting on the article. In any case, it was nice of you to say that.

The purpose of the post is not to criticize you or anyone. It is to make you think. Individually and as part of an Ummah. Where are we going, and are we on the right path?

khan_sahib
Good for you.
You said “..avoid these type of posts which confuse muslims and can become food to lead them to hell fire.” Ok. Next time, I will send my posts to you first, to test whether they confuse you and make ‘food’ (?) to lead you to hell fire. Agreed?